Roads in the 1930s

[Neal Ball]

Last weekend I showed my father the progress to date with the new model railway.

 

Other than he commented that I should get the electrics complete first! (I find electrics very boring and tedious), he made some comments about the basic roads that I am building.

 

The railway has a large town and the streets here will be cobblestones. I have also thought about laying some set-track and having some trams, but that is way off in the future.

 

Anyway, the opposite end is a large coutryside scene, with rolling hills (Polysterne blocks, covered with mod-roc), a viaduct from Scalescenes on a curve, a scrcth built bridge over the railway and a canal. The canal and the over bridge are linked by a road.

 

Dad reckons in rural 1930's the roads would have been tarmac. But I recall seeing in various books that they were un-made. His recollection is based on the fact that as a kid he was evacuated to Wales around 1940 (at 4 years old)

 

Can I have some thoughts about (when I get round to it!) they are un-made rough dirt, or tarmac.

 

Thanks very much, now back to the electrics!

[coachmann]

Not sure if I'm on stony ground here, but I believe Macaddam roads were popular up until the advent of the motor vehicles. They were of fine stone on top of courser stone with around a 3" camber from centre of road to gutter for self drainage. Fine dust was later put between the stone. Dust became a major problem when motorised vehicles arrived on the scene and the surface stone was then mixed with tar, ergo the tar-macaddam road. I think these would have been found in country areas, whereas the very expensive cobbled roads were more likely in towns and cities.

[Fat Controller]

Last weekend I showed my father the progress to date with the new model railway.

 

Other than he commented that I should get the electrics complete first! (I find electrics very boring and tedious), he made some comments about the basic roads that I am building.

 

The railway has a large town and the streets here will be cobblestones. I have also thought about laying some set-track and having some trams, but that is way off in the future.

 

Anyway, the opposite end is a large coutryside scene, with rolling hills (Polysterne blocks, covered with mod-roc), a viaduct from Scalescenes on a curve, a scrcth built bridge over the railway and a canal. The canal and the over bridge are linked by a road.

 

Dad reckons in rural 1930's the roads would have been tarmac. But I recall seeing in various books that they were un-made. His recollection is based on the fact that as a kid he was evacuated to Wales around 1940 (at 4 years old)

 

Can I have some thoughts about (when I get round to it!) they are un-made rough dirt, or tarmac.

 

Thanks very much, now back to the electrics!

My mother, who will be 89 in a couple of weeks, was talking about this the other week.

She was brought up in the Burry Port area prior to WW2, and used to cycle to Carmarthen to her aunt's occasionally- in a very hot summer in the late 1930s, she remembered her bike sinking in the melted tarmac just outside Kidwelly. This was on a fairly important 'A' road.

However, she also recollected that the smaller roads outside the towns were simply made of rolled stone, without any sort of binding agent, so that the surface deteriorated quite quickly. Some of the lesser tracks/roads to isolated locations, which hadn't been adopted, were still like that until about forty years ago- certainly, the street outside our house, which connected the Llanelli- Trimsaran and Llanelli- Burry Port roads, was like that for part of its length until the late 1960s.

[Chubber]

As usual, this site

 

 

http://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/00-app1/roads.htm

 

 

has something succinct and informative to say about the subject. . The home site is an absolute treasury of information, drawings and illustrations and I should like to meet the author and thank him for his efforts. I hope it helps,

 

Doug

[Poor Old Bruce]

I can't speak from personal experience of the 1930s but in the 1950s in Derby the streets were tarmac with cobbled gutters and a band of cobbles, perhaps about ten feet wide, at the end of the street. Looking at some old photographs of Derby, some streets in the town centre where there were tram tracks have a tarmac surface for motor traffic with the tram tracks set in cobbles. Other roads seem to have some sort of 'stuff' on the surface with markings left by wheel traffic. I think you will have to use your imagination as to what the covering is, be it mud or horse much, it's not very thick and the marks are not ruts.

 

One Francis Frith was a prolific early photographer and much of his work has been published in County based books. Other photographers followed suit so I suggest you look round for whatever county you want your railway to be based in to get some ideas. You could also try the relevany 'Local Studies Library' or County Record Office as they will also have collections of old photographs.

[2ManySpams]

As usual, this site

 

 

http://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/00-app1/roads.htm

 

 

has something succinct and informative to say about the subject. . The home site is an absolute treasury of information, drawings and illustrations and I should like to meet the author and thank him for his efforts. I hope it helps,

 

Doug

 

Doug

 

Great site. Another reason why road surfaces became bound (with Tar) was the increased use of pneumatic tyres. Unlike the solid tyres of yester-year these deform as the roll and effectively act as a 'sucker' on the road surface. As the use of this tyre increased and vehicle speeds rose so the early unbound roads became prone to having their surfaces stripped. Solid tyres by contrast helped keep the surface compacted.

 

Regards

 

Chris

[Neal Ball]

Some great pointers here thanks very much to everyone who has replied.

 

Regards,

[Neal Ball]

http://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/index.htm#apps

 

Fantastic web site! - thanks Chubber (Doug)

[stewartingram]

In the early '60s, I can remember going to Hunstanton with my Grandad. Long traffic queues in those days, before we reached Kings Lynn (no bypass then), over the LC at the station throat, and all the way to Hunstanton (through the villages). Parking in Hunstanton was a nightmare, we parked where we could, in a car park or street. A number of times we turned into Sandringham Road (Google it on the maps) and parked in side streets - residential with quite substantial houses, but not private roads as far as I remember. Point is, they were TOTALLY unmade. Our Austin 7 had to be very carefully driven to avoid the ruts, and centre ridges, to avoid bottoming. And the road was mud not stones. By the time I started driving in 1967, they were properly made up.

[Penlan]

Cobbles have been mentioned, but I also seem to recall, in central London at least, tarred wooden blocks, certainly a smoother surface for wheeled vehicles.

 

In the mid 60's I was a surveyor at Hampshire County Council, part of my duties was for the Private Street Works Section, there were plenty of 'unmade' roads about even then.

[Southernboy]

"Cobbles have been mentioned, but I also seem to recall, in central London at least, tarred wooden blocks, certainly a smoother surface for wheeled vehicles... "

 

I seem to recall reading that wooden blocks were often found outside churches in order to reduce noise from the wheels of passing vehicles. I don't believe they were still laid in the 30s, but survived from Victorian times.

[PhilJ W]

There was still a street in London laid in tarred wood blocks in use up until about 1960. Unfortunately I cannot remember where it was, I do remember my late father showing it too me when I was a boy. The Golden Lion in Romford, an old coaching inn, has the old entrance way paved in wood blocks.

[Neal Ball]

I had not heard of Tarred Wooden blocks, until this lunch time, when Jeremy Vine was interviewing someone who spoke about them burning during WW2

[R A Watson]

Just a point of clarification, stone blocks were known as cobbles and the wooden blocks were setts. Both were fixed by pouring tar (asphalt) in the gaps around them to bed them in.

 

A couple of years ago the portion of the Barbican in Plymouth known as The Parade was relaid in the the original manner using cobbles and asphalt, unfortunately this area is covered with with outdoor cafes and bar spaces in the summer and, as it was a hot one that year, most visitors went home with their shoes a uniform black colour.

 

The space around tram tracks was cobbled as the tramway companies were responsble for the surface maintenance for a specified distance either side of the rails and this was the simplest way of lifting short lengths for track maintenence.

 

Wally

[Bernard Lamb]

Getting a bit OT.

Does any one know when the middle overtaking lane was abolished?

I can remember the Watford Bypass A41 around the early 1960s having what was known locally as the suicide lane. Probably sections on the A1 and A5 north of London also had this feature.

Bernard

[JeremyC]

Just a point of clarification, stone blocks were known as cobbles and the wooden blocks were setts. Both were fixed by pouring tar (asphalt) in the gaps around them to bed them in.

 

<snip>

Wally

 

I was brought up in Edinburgh, which still has a large number of cobbled streets using granite blocks. My father always referred to them as setts.

 

Jeremy

[Fat Controller]

Getting a bit OT.

Does any one know when the middle overtaking lane was abolished?

I can remember the Watford Bypass A41 around the early 1960s having what was known locally as the suicide lane. Probably sections on the A1 and A5 north of London also had this feature.

Bernard

The Cardiff- Carmarthen trunk road (A48) had several such sections- from the bridge at Briton Ferry to Skewen and then from Llangyfylach to Penllegaer come to mind, whilst there were others closer to Cardiff. They lasted until replaced by the M4's westward extension, though in latter years they did acquire markings to discourage faster traffic in both directions overtaking at the same time...

They were built in the late 1940s, before the explosive growth in private motoring.

The French still seem to use the idea of three-lane, two way roads, though they do have discrete overtaking in one or other direction. This doesn't, of course, stop drivers overtaking in the last few metres, as is shown by the clusters of silhouettes indicating fatalities.

[multiprinter]

The Cardiff- Carmarthen trunk road (A48) had several such sections- from the bridge at Briton Ferry to Skewen and then from Llangyfylach to Penllegaer come to mind, whilst there were others closer to Cardiff. They lasted until replaced by the M4's westward extension, though in latter years they did acquire markings to discourage faster traffic in both directions overtaking at the same time...

They were built in the late 1940s, before the explosive growth in private motoring.

The French still seem to use the idea of three-lane, two way roads, though they do have discrete overtaking in one or other direction. This doesn't, of course, stop drivers overtaking in the last few metres, as is shown by the clusters of silhouettes indicating fatalities.

 

The Pyle to Cardiff section of the A48 still has some three lane sections as does the Heads of the Valleys road A465. Both are marked for one direction use - usually uphill. If you use the A48 do not be surprised to find cars overtaking down the middle of the two lane marked sections (some of which are wide enough for four lanes)

[Talltim]

I'm sure I've seen wooden setts a foot or so below the road surface in a hole in the road (not the Hole in the Road) in Sheffield, but can't remember where

[Poor Old Bruce]

Does any one know when the middle overtaking lane was abolished?

The recently-built (probably ten or more years ago, time flies and all that) A52 Ashbourne by-pass currently has three lanes with the middle one being bi-di. The three-lane bit on the A515 near Clifton (by Ashbourne) has solid white line making the downhill lane single.

[2ManySpams]

The A5 between Towcester and Milton Keynes Dual Carriageway had stretches of 'suicide lane' up until about 10 years ago. I think it's all now marked up as Wide Single (WS2) with occasional bollards and right turn lanes in the centre. Always used to be interesting pulling out to overtake just as someone in the opposite direction did the same! As a concept it's probably not too bad on low flow roads but for high flows it's just asking for trouble.

[Worsdell forever]

Just a point of clarification, stone blocks were known as cobbles and the wooden blocks were setts. Both were fixed by pouring tar (asphalt) in the gaps around them to bed them in.

 

I was brought up in Edinburgh, which still has a large number of cobbled streets using granite blocks. My father always referred to them as setts.

 

 

To clarify correctly, Cobbles are rounded stones roughly laid and Setts are squared stones neatly laid in rows, square wooden blocks would be Setts.

The best way of remembering this is Cobbles are 'cobbled together' and Setts are 'set out'.

They were originally laid on sand just as modern block/tegula paving is now, tar is used for repairs (badly in my opinion).

 

Cobbles

 

Setts

[Neal Ball]

Great responses, thank you to everyone who has responded. I didn't realise it was going to spark so much interest!

 

Thanks again,

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Forgot the bit of really useful information. If you go to youtube and search for Great North Road 1939, there is an excellent colour film which well displays the variety in this major route. Some side roads look like dusty macadam to me, once North of Baldock

...Dad reckons in rural 1930's the roads would have been tarmac. But I recall seeing in various books that they were un-made. His recollection is based on the fact that as a kid he was evacuated to Wales around 1940 (at 4 years old...

I had to drive from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth about 7 or 8 years ago, and remember thinking about half way along the route that clearly this was rural Wales as the surface appeared to be unconsolidated dirt. Then I came upon a car lying on its' roof in a ditch, so naturally enough I stopped. The driver was fine and accepted a lift to the next town telling me as we went along that the road had been newly upgraded.

... Does any one know when the middle overtaking lane was abolished ...

Far from being abolished a fairly recently constructed length of the A303 was made in this style. The area of concrete employed, better disposed, would have been more than adequate to produce a two lane dual carriageway, but instead was used to produce this manifestly less safe nonsense. Whoever authorised that ought to be made to drive it continuously.

[PhilJ W]

The three lane single carriageway was abolished back in the sixties by Barbara Castle because they were inherently unsafe. The centre lane was either given over to traffic travelling in one direction, often uphill, or covered in cross hatching which means that vehicles are barred from using the lane except in emergency. Some lingered on but I have not seen this type of road for at least 30 years now.