Philip1812 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 It's well known that GWR locos were allocated a colour code, depending on their axle load, to indicate which routes they could work on. Equally all sections of the GWR main line (and presumably lines of other companies over which the GWR had running rights) were classified as double red, red, blue, yellow and unclassified, to indicate which locos could work them - with the added complication of dotted red and dotted blue routes where an overweight loco could run at restricted speed. When carrying out research on a location, it's not too difficult to find the colour code of a particular section of line; it's usually mentioned in passing in a broader reference book about the particular line in which you are interested. However, I have not been able to find a definative list of all the lines of a given colour code, except for the double red routes which are easy to trace. I have three questions: 1 Can anyone point me towards a book which does contain such a list of all lines and their colour codes? (Better still a colour coded map.) 2 Am I correct in assuming that the GWR had allocated colour codes for routes of other companies over which they had running rights? 3 Did the route colour classification system extend to goods yards and sidings etc, as well as the running lines? Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 15, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2011 Trying to take your points in order - 1. I have never seen a map in a book although I know that the GWR did have a Route Availability map for locos with the routes lines coloured in as appropriate - I have only ever seen one and the chap who had didn't like the idea of me removing it from his office wall However there was a Route availability book published in BR time although it didn't sort the routes by colour - but they were mentioned in it. It is possible that the GWR issued a book but I've never seen one although I have got a GWR Loading Gauge booklet (which is structure clearance for stock). 2. Of that I'm not sure but presumably the restrictions were published in some form or another. I do recall that GW operated joint lines were definitely on the GW system map. 3. That's a difficult one as basically it didn't but there must have been some way of advising the information. I am inclined to the view that it was most likely included in a circular issued by either the Chief Engineer or the Motive Power Dept (or possibly jointly) but despite years of rifling exploring cupboards and mooching though bookshops I have never seen anything like that from GWR days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted February 15, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 15, 2011 According to RCTS pt 1 page 59 "Complete lists of the various routes are not available" However the "hatched red" routes e.g. those suitable for Kings are listed. Much of the information is here: Wikipedia Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 16, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 16, 2011 Much of the information is here: Wikipedia Keith I would read that with care as it contains some (usually obvious) errors and omissions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonesome_whistle Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 As mentioned by the Stationmaster there was a Locomotive Route Availability booklet published latterly by BR(W) but prior to that the information was published in the relevant working or service timetable (note: not the appendix but the actual timetable). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 16, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 16, 2011 As mentioned by the Stationmaster there was a Locomotive Route Availability booklet published latterly by BR(W) but prior to that the information was published in the relevant working or service timetable (note: not the appendix but the actual timetable). But regrettably what was in the Service Timetables was far from complete and quite inconsistent when comparing one with another - I've just had a run through some of the 1939 books and for most routes it doesn't give a clue what their RA colour is while for others it refers to locos by class and for others there is no reference at all; typical GWR Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted February 16, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 16, 2011 I would read that with care as it contains some (usually obvious) errors and omissions. Much of it appears to have been lifted wholesale from what is in the RCTS books. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonesome_whistle Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 But regrettably what was in the Service Timetables was far from complete and quite inconsistent when comparing one with another And not often updated either given that I've just found a reference to 4-4-2Ts of the 22xx variety in the 1951 Cardiff service timetable! Talking of inconsitencies, the 1963 Locomotive RA book I have makes particular mention of 9Fs being banned between Hereford and Shrewsbury however there is photographic evidence of them on the 'North and West' and Pontypool Rd had an allocation for a very short time and there is no mention of them being prohibited in earlier working timetables. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 16, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 16, 2011 And not often updated either given that I've just found a reference to 4-4-2Ts of the 22xx variety in the 1951 Cardiff service timetable! Talking of inconsitencies, the 1963 Locomotive RA book I have makes particular mention of 9Fs being banned between Hereford and Shrewsbury however there is photographic evidence of them on the 'North and West' and Pontypool Rd had an allocation for a very short time and there is no mention of them being prohibited in earlier working timetables. Typical of that sort of thing (although the Pontypool Road engines would have had work eastwards via either route of course. However even more amusing on this one is that the Loads Book published at the same time gives a load for 9Fs between Shrewsbury and Pontypool Road in both directions with the footnote 'Only to work on Parcels, Milk, or Passenger trains at speeds not exceeding 60 mph' Alas this sort of confusion carried on long beyond then and the 1974 (or thereabouts) RA Book contained the fascinating note along the lines of 'locomotives are allowed over a particular line or siding if they are not prohibited from that line or siding unless they have not been tested'. And of course you usually only found out something hadn't been tested when it hit something or derailed - as we did with a Class 46 which got itself into problems up at Cranmore. (after that we always used one of them for clearance tests because if they would fit you knew any other loco would fit) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip1812 Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 Thanks for your comments. I'm rather glad that my original question was not a naive one with an obvious answer! Since starting research on this topic, I've found a lot of photographic evidence of locos without any painted weight restriction circle on the cab side, and many more pics where the position of the circle does not match the information in the HMRS Livery Register for the GWR. I get the impression that the system was rather more "word of mouth" or "accepted practice" than the management of the time would like to think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
multiprinter Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 However even more amusing on this one is that the Loads Book published at the same time gives a load for 9Fs between Shrewsbury and Pontypool Road in both directions with the footnote 'Only to work on Parcels, Milk, or Passenger trains at speeds not exceeding 60 mph' That is one of those statements open to interpretation isn't it? Does it mean that they could go as fast as the driver liked on freight? Rather like in later years when the guard was instructed that he should ride in the cab of ECS workings - which cab (front or back) and did that include empty HSTs? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 7, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 7, 2011 Thanks for your comments. I'm rather glad that my original question was not a naive one with an obvious answer! Since starting research on this topic, I've found a lot of photographic evidence of locos without any painted weight restriction circle on the cab side, and many more pics where the position of the circle does not match the information in the HMRS Livery Register for the GWR. I get the impression that the system was rather more "word of mouth" or "accepted practice" than the management of the time would like to think. Take care because on many older photos the RA 'circle' doesn't show up well and photo emulsion plays a part in that as well - and of course lots of smaller locos didn't have them anyway. But yes, the position did vary - almost certainly according to aesthetic likes or dislikes of the Foreman Painter, hence variation between works and between gangs at the largest works. But woe betide any shed Foreman who put out the wrong kind of loco on a job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 7, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 7, 2011 That is one of those statements open to interpretation isn't it? Does it mean that they could go as fast as the driver liked on freight? Rather like in later years when the guard was instructed that he should ride in the cab of ECS workings - which cab (front or back) and did that include empty HSTs? The bloke who wrote it no doubt knew exactly what he meant - it's just a shame that other folk might not Generally however with Instructions you should begin at the beginning and take that as meaning what it says until you come across the bit which alters it. And with some older (in particular) Instructions you need to understand the way punctuation was used at the time it was written - that could make a big difference. And then of course some stuff was deliberately ambiguous in order to ensure that whatever you did you were right, or wrong Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted March 7, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 7, 2011 There used to exist, in Pontypridd Junction Signal Box, a large, poster-sized route/colour indication daigram, which covered all of the GWR-worked routes. It was GWR in origin, but I can't remember the year of printing. This would have been there around 1974-75. Regards, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 A poster like that would be a great thing to see. I wonder where one could be found? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Much of the information is here: Wikipedia I would read that with care as it contains some (usually obvious) errors and omissions. Much of it appears to have been lifted wholesale from what is in the RCTS books. If it's wrong, you can fix it - the beauty of Wikipedia. I've looked at that page before and didn't notice anything that was obviously wrong - at least to me anyway. I do remember some discussion somewhere about a Pannier tank (I can't remember the class) that changed it's designation mid-life. This could have been the 57xx class listed at the bottom of the page. I'm sure there are other examples. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 7, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 7, 2011 There used to exist, in Pontypridd Junction Signal Box, a large, poster-sized route/colour indication daigram, which covered all of the GWR-worked routes. It was GWR in origin, but I can't remember the year of printing. This would have been there around 1974-75. Regards, Ian Must be a 'modern' addition then as it definitely wasn't there in late 1971 (unless my attention was too closely devoted to the lever frame and block instruments to notice it?). If it was 'poster sized' (but what shape?) it doesn't sound like the one I mentioned above in Post No. 2 in this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 7, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 7, 2011 If it's wrong, you can fix it - the beauty of Wikipedia. I've looked at that page before and didn't notice anything that was obviously wrong - at least to me anyway. I do remember some discussion somewhere about a Pannier tank (I can't remember the class) that changed it's designation mid-life. This could have been the 57xx class listed at the bottom of the page. I'm sure there are other examples. I'm not sure how you alter things in tables (or indeed in anything in particular) in Wiki. But there is definitely incorrect information there about the 47XX (which were banned from quite a lot of 'Red' route mileage) and some omissions regarding changes to routes permitted for 60XX but the bit about the 57XX being changed from' Blue' to 'Yellow' is absolutely correct. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted March 9, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9, 2011 Must be a 'modern' addition then as it definitely wasn't there in late 1971 (unless my attention was too closely devoted to the lever frame and block instruments to notice it?). If it was 'poster sized' (but what shape?) it doesn't sound like the one I mentioned above in Post No. 2 in this thread. Hello Mike, IIRC it was about A3-ish. I was quite taken with it, as I'd not seen one before. In fact, I've not seen one since! Regards, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 9, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9, 2011 Hello Mike, IIRC it was about A3-ish. I was quite taken with it, as I'd not seen one before. In fact, I've not seen one since! Regards, Ian Sounds like a reprint, the original one I saw was quite a bit bigger than A3 and framed with a sheet of glass covering it as well - great shame our local PerWay Supervisor wouldn't part with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Following the lowering of the spots in WWII to be above the numberplate, was there any reversion to placing them higher up on the cab sheets after WWII? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 46444 Posted May 31, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 31, 2013 Following the lowering of the spots in WWII to be above the numberplate, was there any reversion to placing them higher up on the cab sheets after WWII? I'm glad you said that Miss P because that's where they are on my model of Newtons 9717 thankfully Cheers, Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 From a perusal of pics of preserved Panniers in post-WWII condition, the spots have been kept in their lower position, i.e. they have not reverted to their former high position. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 46444 Posted May 31, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 31, 2013 From a perusal of pics of preserved Panniers in post-WWII condition, the spots have been kept in their lower position, i.e. they have not reverted to their former high position. Hi Miss P, Aha! I miss read your post. Oh well! There staying there now Cheers, Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonnieS Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Because this comes up on a GOOGLE search I thought I'd Post Working Timetables - (WTT) - Michael Clemens Railways this contains not only timetables but loads of stuff on loco route availability etc. Thanks to M C for sharing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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