Lenz/Hornby compatibility

[7013]

This should be a fairly easy one to answer and I sort of think I know the answer. Will the Hornby accessory decoder work with a Lenz control system? I use Lenz set 100 control and am installing Cobalt point motors on my layout. I have seen the Hornby accessory decoder at a really good price and am toying with buying them. However my heart says I should go with the LS150 accessory decoder, any help/opinions would be helpful

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Will the Lenz system reliably address the Hornby accessory decoder and operate it - yes.

Does Hornby DCC kit have a good established reputation for reliability - no.

Will the Cobalt motor operate well from just about any accessory decoder output - yes.

 

Honestly, what you are proposing is to take two good bits of gear, and interpose between them a product from a maker whose prowess in DCC is, shall we say, wanting. No idea what their accessory decoders are like, but the bad news on the lcoo decoders means that I will let others keep testing their DCC products until something clearly reliable emerges, before even beginning to contemplate a DCC kit purchase from this source. The great benefit of Lenz in my opinion is that it works exactly as it ought to, and carries a decent warranty should there be a defect.

[two tone green]

Don't forget the Cobalt point motor needs DC and the output of the LS150 is AC.

[melmerby]

I use Lenz set 100 control and am installing Cobalt point motors on my layout...............

 

However my heart says I should go with the LS150 accessory decoder, any help/opinions would be helpful

 

Connect the Cobalts as shown in the LS150 manual using a couple of diodes.

 

EDIT: according to DCC Supplies website it won't work! (don't know why as I thought the Cobalt was a slo-mo stall motor type device)

 

This is what it says:

 

"Please note: The cobalt point motor does not operate with the Lenz range of accessory decoders.

Cobalt is totally comfortable with DCC decoders and any of the low power “stall type†accessory decoder with reversing power ability can be used. Additionally, by adding diodes, AC output DCC decoders with adequate supply voltages and adjustable pulse length can be used.

This power supply versatility, combined with very high gearing and variable fulcrum make it as tough or as gentle as it needs to be yet allows it to remain far more stable than any other turnout motor at the “end of throw†whether the power is left on constantly or turned off once the work is done."

Sounds like a contradiction to me!

 

Keith

[Sunnysa]

Connect the Cobalts as shown in the LS150 manual using a couple of diodes.

 

EDIT: according to DCC Supplies website it won't work! (don't know why as I thought the Cobalt was a slo-mo stall motor type device)

 

This is what it says:

 

"Please note: The cobalt point motor does not operate with the Lenz range of accessory decoders.

Cobalt is totally comfortable with DCC decoders and any of the low power “stall type†accessory decoder with reversing power ability can be used. Additionally, by adding diodes, AC output DCC decoders with adequate supply voltages and adjustable pulse length can be used.

This power supply versatility, combined with very high gearing and variable fulcrum make it as tough or as gentle as it needs to be yet allows it to remain far more stable than any other turnout motor at the “end of throw†whether the power is left on constantly or turned off once the work is done."

Sounds like a contradiction to me!

 

Keith

 

I am sorry to say that DCC Supplies are wrong.

 

I have done extensive testing with Cobalt P/motor powered by Lenz LS150 and they do definitely work and work well together.

 

The Ls150s must be powered by separate minimum 16v ac 3amp 18v is better.

NO, 18v will not harm LS150. Been powering 15 LS150s with 18vAC 5amp for yrs. None have failed yet.

 

As Cobalts are DC, diodes are required on each point terminals of LS150.

 

Also program each point on LS150 to give a pulse of 10 seconds if powering stall or slow motion point motors. This gives the P/motor time to complete its throw.

 

Ian

[RFS]

 

Also program each point on LS150 to give a pulse of 10 seconds if powering stall or slow motion point motors. This gives the P/motor time to complete its throw.

 

Ian

 

Does this not mean that, if you need to switch two points connected to the same LS150, you can only do so 10 seconds apart? Could be a bit of a pain if several points need to be thrown as part of a route.

[7013]

Thanks for the replies I may reconsider using the Cobalts and use a different type of slow throw motor if they do not need diodes (do all the slow throw motors need diodes with the LS150?). Thanks for the succinct answers 34 but do not agree with you on the Hornby gear, I have never had any problems with mine or the decoders, the Bachmann decoders on the other hand I find wanting, but its all down to opinion.

I know the LS150 can be driven from the power station with the set 100 using PK terminal but does that provide enough oomph to drive slow-throw points? I have lots of peco type motors which I did not want to use on the scenic area of my layout but by the same token I do not want to get into complex wiring scenarios ( I know fitting diodes is not complex).

[noiseboy72]

Connect the Cobalts as shown in the LS150 manual using a couple of diodes.

 

EDIT: according to DCC Supplies website it won't work! (don't know why as I thought the Cobalt was a slo-mo stall motor type device)

 

This is what it says:

 

"Please note: The cobalt point motor does not operate with the Lenz range of accessory decoders.

Cobalt is totally comfortable with DCC decoders and any of the low power “stall type†accessory decoder with reversing power ability can be used. Additionally, by adding diodes, AC output DCC decoders with adequate supply voltages and adjustable pulse length can be used.

This power supply versatility, combined with very high gearing and variable fulcrum make it as tough or as gentle as it needs to be yet allows it to remain far more stable than any other turnout motor at the “end of throw†whether the power is left on constantly or turned off once the work is done."

Sounds like a contradiction to me!

 

Keith

 

My guess is that they mean that simply connecting the LS150 directly to the point motor without any diodes or re-programmming won't work.

 

Is the Hornby decoder programmable in terms of lengthening the pulse ? I have seen differing reports on this.

[7013]

Will almost certainly go for the Lenz option as it gives me six outlets as opposed to the four of Hornby and I know it will work with Lenz control. And thinking about it sticking a couple of diodes in each line is not difficult as I would like to use slow throw point motors. Thank gents you all for your input, it is amazing how much info one can get from a simple posting.

[melmerby]

Will almost certainly go for the Lenz option as it gives me six outlets as opposed to the four of Hornby and I know it will work with Lenz control. And thinking about it sticking a couple of diodes in each line is not difficult as I would like to use slow throw point motors. Thank gents you all for your input, it is amazing how much info one can get from a simple posting.

 

The slo-mo motors only draw about 30mA max so that is well within the rating of the LS150 (*3A max per output, 3A max all outputs simultaneously)

From the description in the LS150 manual I assume you can switch as many points in quick succession as you like as long as the total current from the LS150 doesn't exceed 3A. Once the signal has been sent to set the first point the next point can be operated whilst the first is still moving, it doesn't cut off the pulse once it's started.

 

Edit: *minimum current per output= 10mA, max current per output with a pulse of more than 1sec = 1A

The Output switches (triacs) are rated at 4A @ 600v so no chance of blow ups with Cobalts!

 

Keith

[Sunnysa]

Does this not mean that, if you need to switch two points connected to the same LS150, you can only do so 10 seconds apart? Could be a bit of a pain if several points need to be thrown as part of a route.

 

No, it means setting each point outlet on the LS150 so it will stay switched on for 10 seconds then switch off.

 

If setting routes, each point will fire rapidly in succession.

 

Each point outlet on the LS150 can be set from 1second thru to 10 secs.

 

As far as I know all stall/slow motion P/motors op on DC. Two diodes has to be fitted to each point outlet on LS150.

 

Ian

[7013]

Have just seen some Hoffman slow throw point motors which apparently run off AC so I will check them out

[Glorious NSE]

Have you seen these out of interest?

http://www.dccconcepts.com/index_files/DCCconcepts_own_DCC_decoders.htm

[7013]

Cheers Martyn, they look interesting. I have sourced some Lenz LS150 which I will get because I want to stay with Lenz. I enquired through Dave Finney if the Hoffman Slow Throw motors would be OK with LS150s as they were AC and in theory should not need diodes. However Dave informs me that the Hoffmans have diodes inbuilt and did not see any problems with LS150s. I wonder if anyone has any experience with Hoffman point motors and could shed some light on the subject?

[melmerby]

Cheers Martyn, they look interesting. I have sourced some Lenz LS150 which I will get because I want to stay with Lenz. I enquired through Dave Finney if the Hoffman Slow Throw motors would be OK with LS150s as they were AC and in theory should not need diodes. However Dave informs me that the Hoffmans have diodes inbuilt and did not see any problems with LS150s. I wonder if anyone has any experience with Hoffman point motors and could shed some light on the subject?

 

With Traintronics TT300s the DCC decoder is already included so no need to use anything else.

The are only a couple of quid more than Cobalts. They seem to be the best total cost option (motor + decoder per point) for slo-mos at present.

 

Keith

[7013]

Thanks for all the suggestions chaps, I have decided to go with my original thought that is the Lenz LS150s and Cobalt motors, perhaps not the cheapest option but I am mightily impressed with the Cobalts and inserting a couple of diodes in the system is not difficult.

[albertzzz]

I know this is probably too late for replying, but i would just like you to know.. i bought 24 cobalt motors for my layout and they all work fine except 2, which, sometimes JAM.

Its very annoying as i have to hit them with something to make them work. Also feeding wires into the connector strip while under the layout is not recommended, but you still

have to do it sometimes.

I guess what i'm trying to say is... buy the TORTOISE ones

[Phil S]

Don't forget - getting back to part of the original question: there are 2 types of Hornby Accessory Decoder: the original was a 'points only' (ie solenoid) and included a Capacitor-pulse discharge circuit .... this also made it difficult for some to program it, as Pgm mode needed time with power on the track to charge it first. The second, later, type could also be set to continuous - which I assume (I don't have one of those) that it doesn't have CDU circuitry in that version ???

 

ALSO - the CV calculation had an address offset of 4 when compared to a Roco sysytem - its a case of whether you started from '0' as software people often do, or from '1' as hardware people tend to 8-) [ie try to program it for Addresses 5-8, by the CV1=x, and then see if it responds to 1-4, 5-8, or 9-12 ... and then reprogram with the value of CV1 modified if necessary [Nmra standards defined the 'dcc/track address' of the accessory - but NOT the Address used by the Controller as shown to the User].

 

The Lenz (and others) push-button to learn method is much easier than using CV1/513 - and the individual addressing ability on the LS150 far more versatile.

The LS150 will also work down to 12Vac when used to operate Roco point motors 8-) [using an Ikea lamp transformer]

And finally, the default address on the original Hornby Decoder was 60 or 61 .. to be used with their Select .. so if its very old stock 8-).... expect to reprogram it first (or try in the range 56-60,61-64,65-68)

[sunbeam.20]

You are correct Phil. One has the cdu set up and the other does not. I think it is the R8247 is the one without.

Matthew

[smokebox]

Received this email this am

 

Hornby Customer Care

To xxxx@xxxxxxxxxxx.co.uk

 

Dear xxxx,

Thank you for your email. The R8247 has an in build CDU which re-charges itself in about 5 - 6 seconds.

Regards,

Sophie Dye

Customer Care

Title

[sunbeam.20]

That is good to know. It never occurred to check with Hornby.

The information that misled me was that the manual for the R8247 reads "the Hornby R8247 has four outputs which are factory set to

provide a short burst of current to operate points or solenoids. It is however possible to alter the CV settings of the outlets so that

their current flow remains switched on permanently"

I thought that if there was a cdu inside then it would not be possible for the current flow to remain switched on permanently. Once the capacitor was empty there would be no charge, so it must bypass the cdu if you program it differently.

Matthew

[Phil S]

Your confusion between the 2 versions is understandable when you can read:

 

'The box/units are labelled R8216, but they are in fact R8247's'. Similar to the R8216, but the four..... [partial quote off a retail site] .... it seems as if even the manufacturers are confused !

 

I didn't know /realise the later model, with the options, still had a CDU in it ... since it seems incompatible with selecting pulse durations or continuous ! 8-)