jamieb Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Hi All As mentioned on my Jidenco Terrier thread, I have begun to build up a kit for a Cambrian Brake Van.This has been sitting in my box of kits for about 25 yearswaiting for its moment.Although branded as Falcon Brass, I would imagine that it is unchanged from the Jidenco version as the changeover had only recently taken place.The only photo I can find is in Cambrian Railways Album 2 in GWR livery but I shouldn't think it changed much from Cambrian days.So this is what you get This is what laughingly is described as instructions First thing to bear in mind is that the brass is very thin and requires care when handling.For that reason, I only cut out what pieces I needed.The instructions state to fold up the sides and ends.Easier said than done as this has the potential to ruin the whole model if it goes wrong.The half etched fold lines are on the outside of the bend, so its a one-shot or nothing.The fold lines were scored with a stanley knife on the reverse side and the whole body structure then folded up using 2 steel rules, one pressing on the base and the other to bring the side up to 90 degrees.Ends were done against a solid milled brass block (actually an old EM back to back gauge)which fitted between the sides.Nothing was soldered as yet and the etchings left inside the windows to provide a little extra strength.With the basic box shape together,time to tackle the chassis On the left are the solebar and W-iron etches.On the right as made up.The solebars have to be folded into a U channel which means out with the vice and steel rulers.A square needle file was needed to get the second bend done in the vice.The W-irons have a half etched line which is folded to the inside, not as it says in the instructions 'to give a right angle bend for fixing to the wagon floor.At the bottom of the W-iron , a half etched line seperates the rivet plate which needs bending through 180 degrees .This is not mentioned in the instructions but I think I did the right thing otherwise the rivet detail would end up inside the W-iron.Once again the half etched lines had to be scored a couple of times with a knife to make them easier to bend.The holes in the V-hangers were opened out to 0.5mm and the axle holes opened out to take pinpoint bearings.It's now time to get out the soldering iron. The sides and ends were soldered up without too much difficulty before fixing the W-irons and solebars.This wasn't easy as there were no reference points to work from, so using bits of blue tack, a wire threaded through the v-hangers and 2 axles in place to keep the alignment straight.One side and then the other was tack soldered into place and once happy with the alignment, a fillet of solder ran along the whole length.After fitting the first solebar, it was apparent the the two solebars were very slightly off centre widthwise but I decided to leave it as no-one can see both sides at once.However this did cause a slight problem later on.The brake hangers are very flimsy and as they are, will be nowhere near the wheels so I will cut them off later and fix new ones to line up with the wheel treads.The photo of the underneath shows my messy soldering up well! Now to fit the buffer beams.The coupling plates were sweated on and the buffer holes opened up to fit the supplied buffers.These are turned brass and almost certainly the wrong pattern compared to the only photo I have but they are nice and solid.These were soldered in to the holes and the buffer beams offered up to the body.It was here that I realised the problem with the solebars being uneven as the buffer shanks wouldn't fit between them so I had to file some of the protruding shank off until they were a snug fit and the buffer beams were soldered to the end of the solebars.This all looks a little messy at the moment but will be hidden by the corner plates. Next the inside end panels were soldered into place.this was less daunting than I thought as my back to back gauge again came to the rescue, being just the right size to fit inside the end with the panel hard against it.This was tack soldered at the sides and floor and then attached with a good fillet of solder Wheels were then fitted and the model tried on the track.It ran smoothly without any suspension but for some reason one end is slightly lower than the other so I may fit a compensation unit to one side to eliminate this.Also noticed that one of the buffers is not straight so will have to sort that tomorrow.Next step is to add all the strapping and footboards etc where I am anticipating a few problems with getting the heat into the brass, but i'm pretty happy with how it's going so far. At the end of the day..... 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Brave of you. Actually the design of this kit seems to be quite good - though whether the faults you have found are due to the accurac of measurements or a glitch in the build process, only you will be able to tell. I have to admit I would not have trusted the chassis as designed and would have built it up separate providing a new "floor". With everything so thin I would want the chassis running true before tackling the box of the body. The thinness of the brass should aid the fitting of the strapping as you should be able to get more heat into it. Just love the type written instructions with quaint spelling errors, though at least there is a diagram of how the parts are supposed to go together - that is a big plus - if you can identify them on the fret. Keeping those openings intact was a very sensible move. Is there a roof supplied with this one, or is it one of those "form from paper and shellac jobs"? BTW Chris of Dragon Models does this, or rather a much better kit, brake van. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 ....BTW Chris of Dragon Models does this, or rather a much better kit, brake van. It's only listed as a 7mm kit at present though, see here . Not many of Chris's items are available in 4mm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
modfather Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Nice - I gave up with the supplied chassis and used p4soc rocking w irons and plastic channel for the sides... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 It's only listed as a 7mm kit at present though, see here . Not many of Chris's items are available in 4mm. I'm pretty sure I looked at one on his display stand, I may have been mistaken as I was more focused on a 7mm kit (LSWR 1501) at the time. Actually a number of his kits are available in 4mm, and they are generally very good. His instructions - particularly those with step-by-step photographs (Lime Wagon and LSWR Cattle at least) are extremely good. Anyway if you are after the Cambrian 15T brake I'd pester him and go in that direction rather than struggling with an old FB kit (only source now? off ebay) But then if it is lying in the treasure box ... ... I'd probably put it up on ebay Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieb Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Thanks for the encouraging comments guys.I think the axle holes were slightly out of alignment as etched and in my attempts to enlarge them for bearings, I've just carried the error over.I should be able to unsolder the 2 bearings from the lower side and elongate the holes downwards before refixing the bearings, with the wagon on a flat glass surface. As for the roof, you will see a piece of white plasticard on the bottom right of the first photo.Thats it! At least it's easy to replace if I get it wrong....Incidentally, does anyone know why some of the etchings,particularly the solebar channels, are a pinkish colour? I've seen the 7mm version on Dragon Models stand, they don't do a 4mm one but there is a 4mm version of the later Metropolitan built single verandah van which takes my fancy. Will post the next stage when done Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 .Incidentally, does anyone know why some of the etchings,particularly the solebar channels, are a pinkish colour?Jamie Its residue from the etching chemical, not that its mainly on 1/2 etched areas and not the areas where the resist covers the metal so that it isn't etched. Worth cleaning it off before painting if you can. You'll sometimes see finger prints exposed like this too! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike morley Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Jamie The opening paragraph of your initial posting reveals that you are in danger of making the same assumption I did with this kit. The arrangment of handrails in the diagram Falcon Brass provide are pure Swindon, not Oswestry. I'd finished mine and painted it in Cambrian livery before realising that. I can make an educated guess at what the Cambrians handrails should be but I cannot find a pre-grouping picture of one anywhere to prove it. After dithering for ages, I am now in the process of repainting it in GWR colours. Mike PS. The fold lines in the "W" irons are some of those that (On my version, at least) were a very long way from where they ought to have been. PPS. The Dragon Models van is indeed available in 4mm. I've had one since they first came out but still havent built it 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted February 21, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2011 Chris's stuff is very good and he is very helpful on liveries etc. He is also quite likely to remember in what books certain pictures featured. He is also a good builder. He built a Beaconsfield for me with inside operating valve gear (something I felt might be beyond me). Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 PPS. The Dragon Models van is indeed available in 4mm. I've had one since they first came out but still havent built it Thanks Mike, for confirming that, glad I wasn't hallucinating on the sight of brass (a common occurrence) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 On the left are the solebar and W-iron etches.On the right as made up.The solebars have to be folded into a U channel which means out with the vice and steel rulers.A square needle file was needed to get the second bend done in the vice.The W-irons have a half etched line which is folded to the inside, not as it says in the instructions 'to give a right angle bend for fixing to the wagon floor.At the bottom of the W-iron , a half etched line seperates the rivet plate which needs bending through 180 degrees .This is not mentioned in the instructions but I think I did the right thing otherwise the rivet detail would end up inside the W-iron.Once again the half etched lines had to be scored a couple of times with a knife to make them easier to bend.The holes in the V-hangers were opened out to 0.5mm and the axle holes opened out to take pinpoint bearings.It's now time to get out the soldering iron. ] Jamie I have a couple that are part built and stopped at the solebar fitting, the one I finished is the SR brake van and I cheated by cutting off the 2 bits that are filded. Is the etched (thinner) part of the solebar wide enough so that when you fold in the 2 thicker outer bits, the solebar is still wide enough? Am I right in thinking you clamp the thicker part (top) in the vice level, then bend. turn around 180' then clamp the middle part of the solebar with a square metal spacer and fold the bottom part over ? Sorry for being thick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieb Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Is the etched (thinner) part of the solebar wide enough so that when you fold in the 2 thicker outer bits, the solebar is still wide enough? Am I right in thinking you clamp the thicker part (top) in the vice level, then bend. turn around 180' then clamp the middle part of the solebar with a square metal spacer and fold the bottom part over ? Sorry for being thick I scribed a line along the inside of the join i.e. at top and bottom of the etched central section.This was to make the bend easier.As you say , the top part was clamped in a vice and the protruding section pushed over with a steel rule to 90degrees.A piece of square rod of the correct size, (I used a square needle file) is then put inside the bend you've just made and this clamped in the vice with just the bottom lip showing.Bend this to 90degrees (make sure its in the same direction!) and you have a u-channel.I needed to turn it round and clamp the two sides together with the needle file still in place to get the fold completed.When finished, the u-shaped solebar corresponded to the drawing so it was either designed that way (unlikely) or I was just lucky To answer your post, Mike, the fold lines on the W-irons seem to have been in the right place, if not the right side of the etch,as the van corresponds to the drawing OK.Unless of course FB just made up a kit and based their drawing on that!As for the handrails, this would have caught me out.As I intend to do Cambrian livery, I'd welcome any information as to correct position of handrails. Have done a little bit more today, not enough to post it but should be some more to report on Thursday (not able to do anything till then due to other commitments) Thanks Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Kenton, my apologies then, I will have to get Chris to up date his web site to include ALL the available 4mm kits. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Kenton, my apologies then, I will have to get Chris to up date his web site to include ALL the available 4mm kits. No problem, I think it might be that he is perhaps out of stock and doesn't have an immediate schedule for the next run? I'd rather the website not updated ... he is as bad as Judith Edge in getting me to part with cash - and always end up at shows picking what he has whirling around on the turntable. Other than that, a really nice guy I also would expect him to have researched all available photos of the van in Cambrian era, so may be able to help with the handrail question (even though it is a FB kit) ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 JamieB and Kenton, Re. the handrails, if one of you wants to PM me on this, I will put you in touch with a guy who was very close to the late Mike Morton-Lloyd (MML), he should be able to help out with some details, I would expect Chris had details from him too. His household does not have any form of PC, etc., All is slow mail or telephone calls - no mobiles......... I know a lot of the MML photo's are being made available through the Welsh Railways Research Circle (WRRC) at present, (I am a member), the photo's of C.C.Green are mostly with the Historical Model Railway Soc., (HMRS). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieb Posted February 26, 2011 Author Share Posted February 26, 2011 Hi All Managed to get a little more done, though it doesn't seem much to look at.Firstly the wonky buffer was sorted with the help of a big hot soldering iron and a dab of bluetack to keep my fingers from frying.The slope of the van was sorted by unsoldering the pin point bearings and enlarging the holes to a sloppy fit.2 pin point axles were then put in place with the bearings loose, and when aligned by eye to be straight in all planes, the bearings were soldered in place.With the wheels refitted , everything was level. Corner plates were next.These are very small and fiddly and require folding to right angles.Carefully scored down the middle lengthwise, these were clamped in the vice and folded over, as seen on left of photo.These were then soldered to the van corners , a little filing needed for a good fit and then cleaned up. Next job was the strapping.This was tinned on the back and sweated on with plenty of flux-probably too much flux as the solder tended to spread a bit too much , requiring a good clean up with a fibreglass pencil.After the first couple, I found it easier to tin the strips before cutting them off the fret, even so they were very flimsy for holding whilst the tabs were filed off. Size wise, some of the strapping was too short so I have tended to leave the gaps at the top where hopefully it will be hidden by the roof overhang.For some reason one of the strips snapped in half whilst being sweated on, this had to be repaired with a blob of solder and much filing. The instructions next refer to T-angle strip which fits vertically down the side of the van, 2 strips each side.Unfortunately,2 strips at each end are also needed but these weren't on the fret so had to be bodged up from scrap brass strip and wire.The photo shows them fitted to one end Next job was the verandah strapping and ledges.These were etched in 5 parts per end and needed folding to right angles.I made the mistake of second guessing the instructions and filed a 45degree angle on each corner of the end piece thinking I would do the same with the side pieces.Unfortunately they didn't fit! With the side ledges in place (according to the diagram) the door opening was far too narrow so all had to come of and be refitted around the door entrance.This left gaps at each corner which I initially attempted to fill with solder and file to shape.However the whole thing ended up looking a right mess so I am now going to cut a piece of 5 thou plasticard to shape around the whole verandah end and overlay when soldering is finished.This will restore a flat uniform surface to the ledges with a rebate for the door.The picture shows the end as it is now.It should look better with the overlays! Finally a photo showing progress up to now.It looks a bit messy with solder but it is smooth to the touch and should disappear with a coat of primer.Mainly footboards and axleboxes to do. Thanks for bearing with me Jamie 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieb Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 Firstly sorry about the blurry photos in the last bit,will try and take more in daylight.Finished the strapping on the ends today and then gave the body a light coat of primer to show up imperfections and also hide where the solder has crept.it looks a bit tidier now.There are several areas where the fibreglass pen and light sanding are needed.I then ran out of primer so will have to take a trip to Halfords on Wednesday.Bad photo giving an idea of what it looks like now. You will notice I have removed all the window infills now and also the tops of the window frames which were very flimsy and not at all straight.These will be replaced with plasticard attached to the roof.Handrails, lamp irons and roof will be glued on after painting. Next I prepared the axleboxes.As the photo shows ,these have a cast on W-iron which is superfluous with the etched irons so these were carefully removed to leave just the spring and the axlebox.The join between spring and axlebox was very weak and broke on one but this didn't matter as it will all be glued in place on the etch.The flimsy brakes have long since been lopped off as they didn't even look like what they were meant to be.I found a well detailed plastic brake gear moulding of the correct wheelbase in the spares box and this will be glued in place when soldering on the chassis has finished. The photo shows the axleboxes before and after and also one side of the footboards.These were soldered up around a piece of square wooden dowel of the correct size,but unfortunately the hangers aren't quite long enough to join the solebar in the correct place so I have attached the hangers to the footboards and will make up small pieces of angle iron to join to the solebars One more slightly better photo of the van in primer before the footboards are attached.I will be using glue as the footboards are very delicate and I don't want them to all fall apart again! Finally a few bits left over!Can anybody identify them? pt 15 Possibly handwheels but where do they go? pt 18 2 thin strips with a hole in the middle.As only 2 ,I should think something on the ends? 2 long thin strips.Length of the van so maybe strapping for the top edge or even for the roof? Any ideas gratefully appreciated Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike morley Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 The wheels are the brake wheels. After I'd built mine I discovered that some (If not all) Cambrian brake vans had upright wheels, rather than the usual "L" shaped handles atop standards. What I never did discover is where and how the wheels are supposed to mount. I'm not sure about the things in your middle picture. Possibly footboard hangers? A hangover from the Jidenco era was the laughable idea that you fabricated your own "T" section strapping from strips. Falcon replaced them with ready made "T" section, but the original strips remained on the fret. I'd guess those are what the long strips are in your third picture. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieb Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 Thanks Mike.I suspected they were brake wheels and wonder if the second items are related and these were added to the fret after the instructions were written.Possibly if the strips were folded into an elongated u shape with the rivet detail at each end flat to the inside end of the van, a piece of wire would go through the hole in the middle and through the handwheel.This would then correspond to the inside of where the small circle is etched.Does this sound possible? I had to fabricate my own t-stripping for the ends,using thin wire and scrap etch, so if Falcon did add them as an upgrade, they missed a bit!Maybe they added the brakewheels at the same time? Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike morley Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 There has obviously been some upgrading of this kit since I got mine, and not all of for the better. I did get the brake wheels but I also got a pre-curved brass roof that you didnt, as well as the "T" section - which might well have been supplied by Eilenes Emporium. One improvement that has been made is the fold lines on the "W" irons are now obviously in the right place. When I built mine with the van standing on the "W" irons, without the wheels fitted, the buffers were more or less at the right height! Pity they didnt improve the instructions! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieb Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 Mike Just done a bit of digging and discovered that I bought the kit in March 1987(from the FB stand at Brighton Modelworld).The changeover from Jidenco to Falcon happened in May/June 1986 going by RM backnumbers ads, so given the somewhat slow rate at which I assume these sold and the fact that the packaging states Falcon rather than Jidenco,I wouldn't imagine any upgrade was done on the kit in the previous 9 months other than re-heading the instruction sheet.This being the case I am surprised you got a brass roof and I didn't - I assume yours was the Jidenco version?Alternatively if your kit was Falcon then it would be later than mine so if thats the case, the W-irons have gone from being correct in early versions to wrong in later versions! One more thing about the roof- I didn't get a chimney casting.Did you in yours ,or do I have to cobble one together from scrap? Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I didn't get a chimney casting.Did you in yours ,or do I have to cobble one together from scrap? That's easy - brass tube (probably better than a casting anyway) getting the roof bent to profile will be the harder task. I thought the wheels might be to do with sanding - were the sand boxes on these on the veranda or in the cabin? Considering its origins I think you are making a purse out of a sow's ear, (ie a good job) Pity they didn't improve the instructions! What and have to do all that one fingered broken typewriter thing all over again 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieb Posted March 2, 2011 Author Share Posted March 2, 2011 Thanks Kenton. No idea where the sandboxes were but I think I'll go along with the assumption they were brake related. A little progress today, but no photos .Attempted to fit the footboards only to realise that they stick out far too wide as they are, necessitating the rebate to clear the axleboxes to be filed deeper.This resulted in having to reposition the top footboards in the same way and deciding to solder as glue wasn't firm enough.Anyway with all the excess solder flying around and flux and fibreglass cleaning up,my asbestos fingers deserted me resulting in one burnt finger and the van being dropped on the floor.Oh b****r! Luckily no major damage was done except the end above the verandah bent in where the support had been removed (that will teach me) but it bent back ok.I was pleased to see that the footboards I had already attached stayed attached ,so at least I was vindicated in my decision to solder.The footboard hangers have been replaced with brass strip(used the mystery parts!) and all carefully soldered to the solebars without melting the whitemetal axlebox and springs.Phew!!.As I say no photos as it all looks a mess but after cleaning up, it will get a further coat of primer and the brakes can be fitted. Thoughts have now turned to the roof.The piece of plasticard included is a bit thick to my mind, so I shall replace with some thinner sheet.If I wrap it round a cake tin with rubber bands and put a hairdryer on it, will it keep its shape or spring back to flat?Always had preformed rooves before.Can't be worse than the footboards anyway! Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Thoughts have now turned to the roof.The piece of plasticard included is a bit thick to my mind, so I shall replace with some thinner sheet.If I wrap it round a cake tin with rubber bands and put a hairdryer on it, will it keep its shape or spring back to flat?Always had preformed rooves before.Can't be worse than the footboards anyway! I wouldn't bother with a plastikard roof use thin brass sheet and measure it then cut it. The method you suggest for bending the plastic works but in my experience is difficult to control and does have a tendency to spring back a little. Brass sheet is more likely to hold form - besides it is more in keeping with the kit and can be soldered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieb Posted March 4, 2011 Author Share Posted March 4, 2011 If I was to use brass sheet, what thickness for a good smooth bend?Can get some from Eileens at Worcester Exhibition next weekend but they describe it as "Half hard".Is this what to use? Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now