Kenton Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 I think the description "half hard" refers to how "hardened" the brass is - the harder the more resistant it is to bending and may require annealing. The brass sheet I use is 0.3mm thick for 4mm but you probably could use thicker without problems (as I use 0.45mm in 7mm scale) just about any thickness will roll (within reason) though you may have to anneal. You don't want to use too thick brass as it will look odd on the wagon, if it is too thin (Baco foil thickness) it will show every dint and crease you put into it. [Ed] the quoted thicknesses are not from any plan/design just what I had lying around. I had to go off any check the sheets themselves. Others may have different views. It is another one of those peeves when kit designers fail to supply a brass roof and substitute either one of those dreadful pre-formed plastic pet food trays or suggest plastikard or simply fail to supply anything - other than what is obviously an incomplete "kit". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieb Posted March 4, 2011 Author Share Posted March 4, 2011 Thanks Kenton Am I right in thinking 0.3mm is roughly 10 thou.Don't want too thick as I don't really have facilities for annealing brass (no gas flame or blowtorch) so just something that will roll nicely without being so thin it creases.Or is there another way of annealing brass? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 10thou is about 0.25mm. I just happen to have a small sheet of Eileen's 10 thou sitting here and it looks fine to me for making a roof. I'll probably be using it on a Chivers reverse Stanier brake van that I'm building. Nick ps I think you'll need to change the subtitle of the thread now 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
A4CML Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Thanks Kenton Am I right in thinking 0.3mm is roughly 10 thou.Don't want too thick as I don't really have facilities for annealing brass (no gas flame or blowtorch) so just something that will roll nicely without being so thin it creases.Or is there another way of annealing brass? Hi Guys. Before now I have annealed brass (and nickel silver) by using the flat hob on my electric cooker. This seems by chance to heat it to the correct temperature when on on full. I then allow it to cool naturally in air. As the sheet is thin, this does not take vey long. One point I would make is that it's an advantage to leave brass half hard on occasions as it is less likely to deform under pressure ie fingers. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Or is there another way of annealing brass? Not to my knowledge only either standing over the gas stove holding it in a pair of metal tongs wearing oven gloves, or, as I do it now, using a plumbers blow torch (because I can do that outside on the patio where I'm not likely to incur the wrath of SWMBO or burn the house down) Just putting it in the oven isn't hot enough. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieb Posted March 5, 2011 Author Share Posted March 5, 2011 ps I think you'll need to change the subtitle of the thread now I haven't sworn at the kit, only at myself when I dropped the bloody thing!(Ooops I did it again!) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieb Posted March 5, 2011 Author Share Posted March 5, 2011 Hi Guys. Before now I have annealed brass (and nickel silver) by using the flat hob on my electric cooker. This seems by chance to heat it to the correct temperature when on on full. I then allow it to cool naturally in air. As the sheet is thin, this does not take vey long. One point I would make is that it's an advantage to leave brass half hard on occasions as it is less likely to deform under pressure ie fingers. I think it would be the wife swearing if she caught me doing this on a ceramic hob! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
A4CML Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I think it would be the wife swearing if she caught me doing this on a ceramic hob! Probably!! Cant do any more harm than a solid saucepan 'tho! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hughes Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Actually brass wire will anneal beautifully in nothing hotter than a match-flame; that's how I get the nice bend at the front of those awkward continuous handrails! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieb Posted March 23, 2011 Author Share Posted March 23, 2011 Well, after an enforced break for various work related reasons, I've been able to virtually complete today.Firstly the underframe needed to be rebuilt again as I accidentally came across an article on building the Dragon kit in 7mm scale by Chris Gwilliam in Railway Modeller Dec 2001 and Jan 2002.Whilst being conscious of not building a model of a model, this at least filled in some gaps where the kit instructions were lacking. The brake gear I had intended to use was wrong,so I bought some whitemetal clasp brakes from Wizard Models and revised the brake hanger arrangements.I bottled out of fitting the linkages but cobbled up some brass strip and wire to make the brake cranks and rodding, fixing to a plastic v-hanger glued into the floor middle Unfortunately my photos are still coming out blurry but it should be possible to make out the arrangement. The article also solved the brake wheel problem.The holes in the etched wheels and metal plate were opened out enough to take a track pin and a similar size hole drilled through the inner panel, to the right of the door as you look at it.The metal plate was sweated on horizontally and the pin soldered in place to keep the wheel in position, using a piece of card to pack the wheel away from the panel.You can just make this out in the photo below.The strips above the door openings were also restored using scrap etch brass. . Finally, a U-shaped piece of plastic sheet was cut to fit around the ends to form an overlay for the verandah.Notches were cut out for the door rebates and the whole unit superglued to the existing verandah ledges.A small notch was filed above the doors on each side to make it look like a break in the ledge.This took a few attempts as I was using the thinnest sheet I had and it was prone to snap.Once in place it presented a more uniform appearance than just the etchings. As for the roof, after frank and forthright discussions with MrsB, it was unanimously decided that I wouldn't be allowed to use the cooker hob to anneal brass sheet so I went with the plastic/hairdrier method which worked OK.The roof needs gluing in position when painting is done,likewise the glazing which is cut from old an CD case to fit inside the middle panels.The roof is just loosely placed for the photos The final photo shows the brake linkage from the side.I'm glad I did it because it's quite noticeable.All that remains to do is to fit the lamp irons and handrails which will be blackened rather than painted and fixed on with superglue.Couplings will be screw link and a chimney needs fabricating for the roof.Livery will be Cambrian light grey with black strapping and frames.Not sure about the exact shade of grey but I think it will be slightly lighter than the primer colour,any suitable Humbrol references will be appreciated. In conclusion, as a first attempt at an etched kit from a notorious range, I am fairly happy.The underframe is basic and poorly designed and had to be rebuilt a couple of times.A lot of this to be fair was down to my bad soldering and the final coat of paint will hide a lot of nastiness.The whole step and solebar assembly needs tabs for accurate placing and the brakes supplied are laughable.The castings I replaced these with were the only add-on I bought as I couldn't live with the etched version.Above the solebars, the body seems accurate but the strapping is poorly etched or in some cases missing.The verandah ledges are difficult to form and really need to be etched all in one piece.The brake handwheels are a nice touch but it was only by reference to someone elses kit that I knew where to put them!A preformed brass roof would be nice and a chimney casting, but maybe I was just unlucky here in missing one.If Dart Castings plan on re-issuing this one, they will need to redo the instructions completely. As I say,it wouldn't win any awards but as a test piece,I have learnt a bit about building etched kits, not least that I need better tools esp. for soldering. I see no value in going back and trying to correct my mistakes but will try to put together a more logical assembly sequence for when I tackle the Terrier, although that will have to wait until I've finished my Hornby E2 conversion, of which more later. Jamie 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieb Posted March 25, 2011 Author Share Posted March 25, 2011 Been experimenting with paints today.Wizard models recommend MR grey as a suitable match for their open wagon but this looks too blue to my eyes.Have tried Humbrol 27 (too dark) and Humbrol 28 (too creamy).Looking at the few photos I have of Cambrian freight stock,it definitely seems to be a very light shade of grey but elusive to capture.The required contrast to the black strapping is the key and the Midland grey just looks wrong.Maybe this is more correct for open wagons but brake and covered vans appear to be lighter.Any help appreciated.For those with good libraries, I'm referring to Cambrian Railways Album 1 (CC Green) for pictures. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 The HMRS's 'Great Western Way' states Light Grey for Cambrian goods stock. Some Cambrian model stock I've seen has been painted with grey auto primer, agreed this can vary in shade. Jim Richards Cambrian stock at the NRM is a light grey, slightly lighter than the MR stuff. Humbrol 64 - Light Grey may be nearer, but of the three colour charts to hand, they are all different. Humbrol 87 - Steel Grey might also be a contender, again as above, the charts vary. I'm happy enough with Auto Grey primer. I think the match to MR Grey is about right in terms of 'lightness', Mike Morton Lloyds stock (MRJ No. 3) looked a little lighter than the MR staock, but this could have been acentuated by the Dark Grey/Black framing on the Cambrian Vans. But if you need to move away from the blueness - view them under tungstan lights!!!!!!! Of course all Light Grey stock then varied with time and polution, even the sea air off Barmouth took it's toll. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike morley Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 I agree entirely about the Precision Midland Railway supposedly "light" grey being much too dark. I wondered if the first tin I bought had been wrongly labelled and was actually the dark grey so went out and bought another tin from an entirely different source and found the same thing. Wondering if, even though they were from different sources, they might have come from the same batch I waited many, many months and bought a third tin from yet another source and found it too was much darker than could possibly be described as "light" grey. Could anyone with more knowledge of the Midland shed any light (groan) on this subject? I ended up mixing my own from assorted Humbrol colours. If you mix it yourself each batch comes out a fractionally different shade and gives the variations in ageing and weathering that Penlan mentions. Thank you for finding out where the vertical brake wheels were supposed to be mounted. All I've got to do now is find the remnants of the etch that has still got the wheels attached to it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Midland Wagons Vol 1. states that new Midland Light Grey was a light lead grey which discoloured to dark grey in service, the lettering remained bright because they used a white Oxalic self cleansing paint. Plate 59 in the above book gives a very good example of the the contrast between new and aged Light Grey (It's a BR Copyright photo). Post WW1, there was also 'Smudge', a mixture of ex. Naval Warship grey and what ever else was available to give a sombre dark grey, but this was only used for repainting repaired wagons, not new construction. The Midland spec., for Light Grey covering the period 1888 - 1928 was :- 112lb white lead 4lb black 9lb linseed oil 9lb turps 30lb dryers 36lb boiled oil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike morley Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 You can't help wondering how many wagons that witch's brew painted. I also wonder what "dryers" were? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieb Posted March 26, 2011 Author Share Posted March 26, 2011 Thanks Sandy and Mike for your responses.I've been out today to try and find a supplier of Humbrol paints in Telford -with no luck-but looking at paint charts on the net, Light grey 64 might be suitable. Although the exact shade may never be clear, I will know what looks right to my eye and what I will be happy with.Have looked at MRJ 3 at MML's layout but to be honest the photo's are of pretty indifferent quality,but then they are nearly 30 years old. Sandy, going by your recipe for Midland grey,can I assume this is an equivalent to 28 parts white to 1 part black as this would make a very pale grey, unless any of the other ingredients affected the pigmentation? Glad to be of help with the brake wheels Mike.If you want to go back to your model ,PM me and I could let you have some more details of the article in RM (if you get my drift!) Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Currently anchored in Mounts Bay is a Naval supply ship, painted in Navy Grey.... I know.. So, it's light grey that has changed it's hue throughout today depending if it's been cloudy, sunny, misty etc., including the reflection from the sea depending on the sky/cloud above.... It would be almost impossible to say what grey it really was - OK I could have swam out there with a colour chart, but... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Currently anchored in Mounts Bay is a Naval supply ship, painted in Navy Grey.... I know.. So, it's light grey that has changed it's hue throughout today depending if it's been cloudy, sunny, misty etc., including the reflection from the sea depending on the sky/cloud above.... It would be almost impossible to say what grey it really was - OK I could have swam out there with a colour chart, but... I suspect it is painted in "Warship Grey" !!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isambard Kingdom Brunel Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 I suspect it is painted in "Warship Grey" !!!! Whwn I was in the mob it was known as either "Pussers Grey or Battleship Grey" and is a very light grey colour Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Yes, I asked for that but what I mean is any Grey, say Humbrol 27, will look a different hue, perhaps even shade, depending on the type/source of light it's viewed in. The Fisheries Protection vessel in Newlyn looks the same Grey in the Harbour as the Naval ship out in the Bay, but the Protection vessel's grey was different when it passed the Naval ship later today. Grey is in the eye of the beholder. Penlan To old to know everything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieb Posted March 30, 2011 Author Share Posted March 30, 2011 I wonder how many Humbrol tinlets the Navy get through when painting their ships? Anyway,have managed to track down a tin of Humbrol 64 and here are the results: 64 light grey at the left ,27 sea grey at the right (roughly slopped on an old Hornby toad, the painting on the model will be better!) The light grey gives the correct contrast to the black for my eyes whereas the sea grey does seem to change colour depending on light and angle of viewing but I would say still too dark overall, so I shall go with the light grey.Thanks to all for their input.All being well the next post should be of the finished article. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieb Posted April 1, 2011 Author Share Posted April 1, 2011 Found this today, only wish it was an April Fool! http://homepage.ntlworld.com/foxfield/gwrbrake.htm Jamie (about to have nightmares) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Found this today, only wish it was an April Fool!.... Well I think the Foxfield's interpretation of Cambrian Light Grey may be a little severe. But why not do it in GWR livery as it's a GWR Vehicle - Ah yes, he who pays the painter calls the colours, and there's plenty of GWR stuff around anyway. Presumably this is the GWR grey (and seasoned bare wood) showing through the Bauxite. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieb Posted April 1, 2011 Author Share Posted April 1, 2011 I can understand, to an extent, the concept of preserving a livery for historical reasons,but it would then have to be acceptable as an historical document,with attention paid to minor details such as paint colour and lettering size and font etc...!But as you say , why not paint it in GWR (or even BR) colours like it deserves to be.The same argument has often been used against the Fairburn tanks on the Lakeside Railway,amongst others.Conversely, a plain open coal wagon or van when painted in an authentic PO livery,even if not the exact type of wagon, can be a good reference point.But this is just horrible! Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieb Posted April 29, 2011 Author Share Posted April 29, 2011 ]Well it’s finished, all bar 2 details and a coat of matt varnish.The first missing detail is the lamp irons which I found too fiddly and the second I’ll let you guess. Although not a shining example of kit building , I’m fairly happy with it as a first attempt at etched brass kits, things can only get better (although I'm not expecting a call from the Pendon team). In fairness to the kit makers, some of the problems were down to my heavy handedness but others were deficiencies in the design of the kit, e.g solebars and footboards. Anyway , a coat of Humbrol 64 hides a multitude of sins, the first attempt was awful, the second less so, but I will have to dig out my old airbrush and find out how to use it as brush painting doesn’t give me a good enough finish. Black was Humbrol acrylic which was nice to use. I used Tamiya masking tape but despite my best efforts there was a bit of paint creep. Whether this was because I brush painted or because the edges of the strapping were uneven I’m not sure but I finally got a reasonable result. The whole model was then given a coat of gloss lacquer from Halfords, in readiness for transfers from Dragon Models.However this was superfluous as when I took them out of the packet I discovered they were dry print transfers!This is how come a final coat of matt varnish is still waiting.The roof was plasticard spray painted with white aerosol to give a deliberate rough texture to the roof. The chimney was cobbled together from brass tube and the roof glued on. Screw couplings were from the spares box , Smiths, I think. Interior glazing from CD case and a big lump of metal inside to weight the van to 80g, to match my heaviest white metal wagons. Wheels are 3-hole disc, probably wrong for this era, but can be replaced at a later date. All I need now is the rest of the train and a loco to pull it. In the main, I enjoyed the challenge .The only parts I replaced were the brake shoes and I added a bit of extra detail.I would build another if I found one at a reasonable cost, if only so I could right the mistakes I made with this one. It certainly hasn’t put me off Falcon/Jidenco kits, which brings me back to the Terrier kit which precipitated this build and shall be started soon . Thanks to all those who contributed advice esp. Mike Morley and Penlan and I’ll be interested in anyone’s comments or questions. Jamie 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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