Menelaus Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I'm converting a rake of RTR Mk1 non corridor coaching stock to S4 using MJT coach compensation units and would appreciate hearing of others experiences in their construction and use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike G Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Having now built somewhere approaching 40 odd S4/P4 kit built coaches - no where near Coaches output (or quality) - I can honestly say that in my experience you are storing up trouble for yourself by using these units. I will only use sprung bogies on my coaches, at present these are from Bill Bedford, until something better comes along. The difference in quality of ride and road holding cannot be over stated. There are those who will just add wheels to the existing bogies and they turn out to be equally reliable. The honest answer has to lie in this question..."what do you expect your rake of coaches to do for you?". I converted a rake of 5 BR suburban's with MJT's and they were a nightmare, put BB bogies under them and all the problems disappeared....that was enough to convince me that I'd done the right thing. I have since been removing MJT's from previously built coaches and am putting the sprung versions under them as funds allow. All the coaches that I've converted and built run around over 35 feet of track - although that's about to change to over 100 feet shortly - so my coaches only go around and around, so reliability & quality of ride is extremely important to me. As to building the bogies, there is no real pain in either design. You pays your money...and learns by your mistakes. Sometimes they prove to be expensive! regards Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I've built a number of coaches to 18.83 gauge using MJT torsion bar, Mitchell/Pendlenton and Bill Bedford sprung bogies (I've also got a set of Mike Clark's Masokit sprung bogies but they are still in the packet). I wouldn't condemn the MJT version as Mike has done, but they do neet some fettling of the press stud fittings so that they can rotate freely (I think this is more of an issue with the recent ones). The M/P need some setting up to get right and also rely on a soldered steel wire to brass joint on each bearing carrier which isn't ideal. I've only got one carriage fitted with these and I've had one failure to date. The BB ones are probably the best option at this time, but aren't perfect and have inaccurate instructions. The setting up of the bogie frames to adequately retain the bearing carrier is not well thought out. But, as Mike says, they are probably the best option until something better comes along. My experience has been that they all give reasonable results when correctly installed and set up and I haven't really noticed much difference in visible performance. The main problems I have come from gangway/buffer/coupling interaction that puts additional forces onto the bogies/wheels. This is particularly noticeable when reversing rakes of carriages through crossovers, about the worst scenario you can devise. That's why OO layouts with RTR stock pulled around in one direction only seem so reliable Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I've seen a modified version of the MJT system which uses two bars rather than one and is very good indeed and should be available soon. The original MJT version isn't particularly great both because the bogie can end up tight one end and wide the other because of the single piece of wire and also stress on the solder joint. They are also annoying when trying to get the wheels out if you have an issue. Bill Bedford are a better bet at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike G Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I wouldn't condemn the MJT version as Mike has done, but they do neet some fettling of the press stud fittings so that they can rotate freely Jol Thanks Jol, that's a much better turn of phrase than I used...way too much fettling, messing around to get a reliable result...BB for the present, by a country mile! Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Hiya Never had a problem with them myself. One thing I would say is don't file the torsion bar back as per the instructions as it weakens the joint. I leave it protruding a smidge and drill a hole in the sideframe to allow for it. Other tip is to assemble on a small mirror and ensure that everything is tight. HTH Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I used a couple of sets of MJT bogies as a quick way of rewheeling a couple of Mainline and Bachmann GW Collett coaches (both C77s) to S4. I also built another set for use under a GW Siphon G. I put them together exactly as the instructions, and with a minimal amount of solder. The RTR bogie frames being now cosmetic were simply glued to the MJT bogies. I think the torsion bar as supplied is probably marginally too thick to provide much flex. A thinner gauge wire would probably have worked a bit better. That said, I never had any problems inserting the S4 wheelsets into them, and they do run quite freely. The press-stud mountings rotate freely and are easy to detach from the underframes. I have not built any more since the Bill Bedford all-sprung bogie designs were introduced - these are now my default choice. I used BBs first under Coopercraft Mk.1s, and have since built another set for the SR Bogie "Van B". Like Jol, I also have a packet of the Pendlenton/Mitchell bogies, but have yet to find an excuse to build them....... I'm sure I'll find one eventually. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
43179 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Hi All, I like the MJT bogies myself - theyre quicker to build, and er , some of the fold lines are in the right place - unlike the other brand mentioned here. Dont use the press studs - use a brass nut and bolt - secondly - I only solder one end of the torsion bar, I leave the other end of the bar protruding, and flatten it in pliers to hold the bogie togther and trap the wheels in. This means of course the halves of the bogie can spin round in opposite directions , causing the wheels to drop out - to stop this, solder a 'v' shaped bit of sping steel to the top , the ends of the 'v' can be spread if you want to twish the bogie and remove the wheels at a later date. As jim says - i drill a small hole in the boige sideframes for the protruding wire to poke into. Heres a much modified mjt bogie - its been on a crash diet - for use on a mk3 emu but all the principles are there tfn jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambler Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I've not had any problem with MJT units, but there are a few tweaks to help get the best performance: i) file away the ridges under the head of the male part of the press-stud, so that it rotates freely ii) solder the torsion bar to one leg of the central piece, otherwise the central piece flops over. You don't want it flopping over as this reduces the ride height at the end without the half-moon risers. iii) file a vee cut in the bottom of the flange of each of the pin-point bearings (a burr in a mini drill is best for this) so that it is easier to remove the wheel-sets. Eric Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Why do people always want to be able to remove the wheel sets? Or is it a 4mm thing! If all is setup correctly as the start you should never need to remove the wheel sets. Unless you are changing gauge. If you can ware out a set of brass pinpoint bearings your stock is doing some considerable real miles. OzzyO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Why do people always want to be able to remove the wheel sets? Or is it a 4mm thing! OzzyO. Slipped tyres and centres that have been damaged are two reasons I can think of in 4mm, generally after cleaning a bit of really hard crap off the flange. In P4 you don't have much flange to start with so cleaning is a bit more important.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted March 2, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 2, 2011 This topic is well timed for me, I recently purchased some MJT CCUs and American sideframes for putting under a Lima Siphon. Putting them together last weekend, I soon found the short-comings of the press studs! I've yet to fettle them, but still undecided whether to just ditch them instead for something more suitable. ii) solder the torsion bar to one leg of the central piece, otherwise the central piece flops over. You don't want it flopping over as this reduces the ride height at the end without the half-moon risers. The instructions actually tell you to do this anyhow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 The M/P need some setting up to get right and also rely on a soldered steel wire to brass joint on each bearing carrier which isn't ideal. I've only got one carriage fitted with these and I've had one failure to date. i have a number of these but none are running as designed, The 4 individual wires soldered to the bearing carriers were a pain to assemble and a maintenance problem. However Bill supplied sets of carriers as used in his bogies specifically to convert the M/Ps. These carriers just clip to the wire, one wire each side and the M/P bogie is equivalent to a BB bogie, so no need to throw them out. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 i have a number of these but none are running as designed, The 4 individual wires soldered to the bearing carriers were a pain to assemble and a maintenance problem. However Bill supplied sets of carriers as used in his bogies specifically to convert the M/Ps. These carriers just clip to the wire, one wire each side and the M/P bogie is equivalent to a BB bogie, so no need to throw them out. Regards Keith Hi Keith, I had a look on Eileens Emporium site as they now sell the BB stuff but can't find them listed. Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Hi Keith, I had a look on Eileens Emporium site as they now sell the BB stuff but can't find them listed. Jol They only sell 'some' of the Bill Bedford stuff, mainly its the most popular underframe kits or pieces. I'd think you'd have to go direct to Bill at mousa for some spring units on their own. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 They only sell 'some' of the Bill Bedford stuff, mainly its the most popular underframe kits or pieces. I'd think you'd have to go direct to Bill at mousa for some spring units on their own. Craig, I couldn't find them on BB's main site either. As you say, EE are doing the "popular" stuff, including the bogies so it would be logical for the spring units to be included there. Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 I had a look on Eileens Emporium site as they now sell the BB stuff but can't find them listed. I don't think he ever actually listed them, but i expect he will produce on request. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meil Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Craig, I couldn't find them on BB's main site either. As you say, EE are doing the "popular" stuff, including the bogies so it would be logical for the spring units to be included there. Jol Coach bogies are here: http://www.eileensemporium.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=288&Itemid=9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Coach bogies are here: http://www.eileensemporium.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=288&Itemid=9 Yes those aren't what we are talking about but separate springing units for the M/P bogies. Bill produces quite a lot that isn't ever listed so it'll probably need an email to him to see if he still has some. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Coach bogies are here: http://www.eileensem...id=288&Itemid=9 ---->...and here are the secondary spring support plates Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Holt Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 I haven't that much coaching stock, but I have tried various makes and types on what I have got running. The MJT units were fairly easy to put together and have the advantage that the pin-point bearing don't move relative to the cosmetic side frame. I have had trouble with a fractured joint between side frame and torsion bar (issue mentioned by Jim S-W) - solved by a large solder fillet on the inside. Any future examples will have a small nut included at the joint to give more contact area for the solder. I've also had issues with the press-stud connectors being tight and needing the male "pin" filing to allow free rotation. Managed to sort this and good running has resulted. I've also used:- Bachmann plastic BR Mk 1 with plastic removed from near the pivot to allow a degree of flex - good running so far, but I fear that the plastic bearing recesses might wear out with use. Comet etched bogies with on fixed and one rocking axle, M/P sprung - beautiful ride but the secondary suspension is a bit of a fiddle to set up, BB - good ride, no particular problems, Masokits (for LNER bogies) - as BB but some issues with spring/bearing holders rotating behind side frames - not as good as BB in this respect. In all cases, I got one bogie with side bearers to the body to prevent rocking of the body and the other bogie free to rock sideways. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menelaus Posted March 5, 2011 Author Share Posted March 5, 2011 Gentlemen - thanks for sharing your experiences - quite a variety of opinion. Think I will persevere with them for this rake and see how they work in practice. I've also built some BB sprung units so it will be intersting to see how they compare in service. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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