RMweb Premium gc4946 Posted February 25, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 25, 2011 It depends on what you define as modern image and when the cutoff period starts: Modernisation Plan, rail blue, sectorisation or privatisation? I would define it nowadays as post-1968. I remember the rail blue era in my youth in Portsmouth as "very boring" so developed interests in the steam era and preservation, not so much nowadays! My family lived on both sides of the Mersey in the late 60s and I can't remember steam at all, just Wirral 503 EMUs and Birkenhead 03s and 04s. To put it simply, it's the availability of models in the quality that we've seeking in both OO and N, that drives what layouts we produce. Many, but not all of us, model based on what we knew in our youth and quite a lot of us are hard-pressed for time and don't have much space at our disposal. You now have to be about 50 to remember steam with any certainty on BR, younger if you were fortunate to live near a National Coal Board or other private industry site that still ran steam locos, often well into the 70s. One era I've seen far less modelled, despite its possible appeal, is the transition period just after nationalisation in 1948. You can run the Big 4 liveries and some of the experimental BR schemes as well as running early crest locos, indeed I get the impression sales of locos carrying BR early crests and Big 4 liveries are slower and more often end up offered as shop bargains than BR later crest liveries. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Colin Posted February 25, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 25, 2011 It depends on what you define as modern image and when the cutoff period starts: Modernisation Plan, rail blue, sectorisation or privatisation? I would define it nowadays as post-1968. I remember the rail blue era in my youth in Portsmouth as "very boring" so developed interests in the steam era and preservation, not so much nowadays! My family lived on both sides of the Mersey in the late 60s and I can't remember steam at all, just Wirral 503 EMUs and Birkenhead 03s and 04s. To put it simply, it's the availability of models in the quality that we've seeking in both OO and N, that drives what layouts we produce. Many, but not all of us, model based on what we knew in our youth and quite a lot of us are hard-pressed for time and don't have much space at our disposal. You now have to be about 50 to remember steam with any certainty on BR, younger if you were fortunate to live near a National Coal Board or other private industry site that still ran steam locos, often well into the 70s. One era I've seen far less modelled, despite its possible appeal, is the transition period just after nationalisation in 1948. You can run the Big 4 liveries and some of the experimental BR schemes as well as running early crest locos, indeed I get the impression sales of locos carrying BR early crests and Big 4 liveries are slower and more often end up offered as shop bargains than BR later crest liveries. IMHO one of the best layouts depicting the immediate post-Nationalisation period has to be Graham Muz's "Fisherton Sarum". I honestly think it's time the term "modern image" was put gently to sleep - after all, it was coined when steam was still around in much of the country (1965 from memory). Personally I like to think that I can appreciate any well-crafted layout irrespective of era/prototype. I choose to model BR/SR in the transition era, but I'm 57 and my only clear memories of working BR steam are from Waterloo and Clapham in '67, there is little else I can recollect. Steam disappeared from my local lines (LTSR/GER) in mid-62 when I was 9! I'm now hard-pressed to remember even ordinary steam-age infrastructure - for example my local station from my schooldays was Upminster, which lost its goods sidings in the mid-60s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 To put it simply, it's the availability of models in the quality that we've seeking in both OO and N, that drives what layouts we produce. No way can I agree with that statement. I was always going to model what I am modelling now, I hoped RTR would help along the way but the lack of a key item in modern spec rtr (class 116) has not stopped my plans. If nothing materialises RTR I will design my own parts to get what I need. Its wrong to assume that all of us are reliant on high spec RTR Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Is "RMweb top-heavy with modern image layouts" ? What is Modern Image? Does it include the BR blue period of the seventies? In the early seventies, when I was about fourteen, I modelled the GWR c.1935 - or about thirty-five to forty years back at the time. Now I am modelling the railways as they were in the seventies, around thirty-five to forty years ago now. So did that make 1930's GWR models "modern image" in, say 1970? I don't remember any pre-grouping modellers back then bemoaning the fact that there were so many "big-four" layouts either. "Modern image" as a term has lost any real meaning and is now a misnomer for "post-steam". Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium gc4946 Posted February 25, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 25, 2011 To put it simply, it's the availability of models in the quality that we've seeking in both OO and N, that drives what layouts we produce. I should have qualified that statement but I do realise in this forum there are plenty of us who go their own way by modifying RTR, kit- or scratchbuilding, and for much of the steam era in particular RTR models can only at best cover a fraction of what actually ran in the area/era of choice. However, surely there's more than a coincidence that in the past few years there's been an upswing in interest and of modelling in particular themes as third rail Southern Region, the Withered Arm in Devon/Cornwall, and the S&D, now that suitable RTR models are available and/or in the pipeline? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 ...However, surely there's more than a coincidence that in the past few years there's been an upswing in interest and of modelling in particular themes as third rail Southern Region, the Withered Arm in Devon/Cornwall, and the S&D, now that suitable RTR models are available and/or in the pipeline? That may be part of it, but I think a closer look at relevant threads will show quite a few people already had such interests and some of them have been delighted with, but far from dependent upon, the availability of certain RTR models. For me, it was great to be able to get an RTR 7F because I've been interested in the S&DJR since the days when I regularly saw trains running on it. The availability of this model simply meant one less kit that would need to be built. I'm sure I've seen similar sentiments expressed by third rail and Withered Arm modellers, too. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 About this "Modern Image" thingy. I'm sure I've seen films/newsreels/read books/magazines from the 1930's where the commentator/author has used the expression "Mr Stanier/Gresley/Churchward/Bullied's latest 'modern' locomotive was on test today". Similar from the early 1950's when the 'Standards' were being rolled out. Certainly such icons as are from an earlier age, cannot possibly be regarded as 'modern' today? (even if their designs didn't get any further 'modernised'!) Similarly with BR's first diesels dating from the late fifties or early sixties, they may have been 'modern' at the time but no longer. In todays terms, the only really 'modern' loco is the class 70, surely? Hence, the term 'modern' is a rolling expression that continuously moves forward with time? (I believe I am actually repeating what others have said here!). Therefore I would say that we may well be better off expressing our modelled era in the terms of the Bachmann system! While this may not be the best system (I personally prefer the European system!) - it's partly in place and could easily be adapted by more or less everyone (I think!). Now go back to the OP - which era is best represented on RMweb? Pretty much all except era 1 & 2, I should say! Cheers John E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 25, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 25, 2011 However, surely there's more than a coincidence that in the past few years there's been an upswing in interest and of modelling in particular themes as third rail Southern Region, the Withered Arm in Devon/Cornwall, and the S&D, now that suitable RTR models are available and/or in the pipeline? Like Nick I don't think it quite works like that. In many cases the availability of photoalbums and other things has encouraged people to take an interest in 'lost lines' which they probably never knew and that created a sort of latent interest especially in those who fancied a bit of nostalgic modelling. But apart from that there are plenty of folk around who already had such an interest and have dabbled with modelling or have scratch or kit-built locos and stock and been happy to take advantage of some pretty accurate r-t-r when it came along. I think what drives anyone to model anything depends on all sorts of things varying from trying to capture what they knew and were impressed by in their formative years to a nostalgia for something they never knew in the flesh to something they just happened to like or have an interest in. Many of us have all sorts of prototype interests which we might suddenly be spurred to model if we become wealthy, or develop the skills, or find ourselves with time on our hands or someone bashes out some appealing kits or r-t-r etc. And the result is all sorts of variety for us to enjoy or possibly ignore if the subject doesn't float our boat Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Interesting reading, as ever. If there's one thing that disquiets me, I wish the OP had chosen some term other than 'modern image' because with the utmost respect, endless attempts to define and redefine it bore - no actually, frustrate is a better word - the pants off me Like Colin, I wish it could be quietly disposed of but I'm realistic enough to know that's not going to happen - it's been coming up at regular intervals for the six years I've been on forums and nothing ever changes, except that the march of time means that an even bigger span of years are potentially included and just dilute its meaning further. That said, the problem to me is that people seem unable to say 'modern' without tacking 'image' on the end of it. The point that is consistently missed IMO (even though it's so self-evidently bloody obvious) is that Cyril Freezer was after all talking about an image - which is not generally what we model, we model reality (or an interpretation of it). I'm sure Cyril was inspired by the forward-facing aspects of the railway at the time, as seen in contemporary publicity - the overhead electrification, diesel and electric traction, the resignalling schemes, marshalling yards, RoadRailers etc. There must have been very few places where these bright and shiny developments were all that could be seen, in most places they rubbed shoulders with a myriad older items. Drop that damn word 'image' and you're left with 'modern'; admittedly a word that's relative to the time it's used but at least it is a word that most people readily understand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 25, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 25, 2011 That said, the problem to me is that people seem unable to say 'modern' without tacking 'image' on the end of it. ... snipped ... Drop that damn word 'image' and you're left with 'modern'; admittedly a word that's relative to the time it's used but at least it is a word that most people readily understand. I rather like the term 'contemporary' - as in 'modelling the contemporary scene/railway' and then anything else can be identified by either date or reference to something such as 'the BR blue period' which at least has a degree of meaning to it (even if it is rather elastic) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I just wonder why the RTR bashing is needed. It's an entry point into the hobby for many people - if it leads to kit building, great, if not, then its still contributing to keeping the hobby as a whole alive. It would be a very poor hobby we'd be in, if in the modern day everything had to be kit or scratch built - then arguably you'd have a hobby on its knees, and dying from lack of support. For the record, 23 years old, never saw steam in service, have little interest in modern image and model Leeds, 1950s, with lots of steam and diesel crossover. Why? Probably my grandfather's influence. And yes - I buy ready to run models Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Modern is such a relative term. As for an image, best leave that to the spin doctors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
multiprinter Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Everything was modern - once Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebottle Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 About this "Modern Image" thingy. I'm sure I've seen films/newsreels/read books/magazines from the 1930's where the commentator/author has used the expression "Mr Stanier/Gresley/Churchward/Bullied's latest 'modern' locomotive was on test today". Churchward? Thought the old boy retired in 1922? These 1930s people must have been a bit vague about period too... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 :blush: Oops! Guess I meant Collett! John E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWJP Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Coming from a "younger" perspective (19 going on 20), I have to agree with the idea that we generally model what we know. As much as i'd love to have lived in the days of BR Steam, I was born a handful of decades too late, and as such, my memories of the railways consists of slam door EMUs, 5WES, Desiros, 66s, Railtours with a 67 on the end, and preserved steam. And that's why my layout is being modelled in the present day (I prefer that term to modern image). It's going to be a modern main line in South West England, with a small rail engineering facility based on Eastleigh, allowing me to have Kettles and D/E on the layout at the same time. To me, that's one of the best things about setting a layout in the present day, so much happens nowadays, with companies like Knight's Rail at Eastleigh working on unusual projects for preservation groups, and repaints/maintenance/testing for current TOCs. It allows for so much scope and so much variety. Railway modelling is a personal hobby, one that we all (try to) devote a lot of time to, and our layouts reflect us, in the sense that we model something we love, or are fascinated by, or simply know well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekEm8 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 A few points from the above posts to ponder, Bachmann class 70 apparently selling so well further batches on the way - have they sold 30 times as many of the wagons to go with them ? How many modellers kit build or scratch build diesel locomotives.? If we only model what we remember why all the frothing (and buying) of things like the Blue Pullman, early Hydraulics, Pilot scheme diesels which came and went during or shortly after the steam/diesel transition period.? Will we see an increase in the popularity of that period.? I must add that I do sympathise with modellers of the current scene who don't have not the space to run scale length freight trains, unless they are memebers of a like minded group or club. Just my thoughts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 ... my personal opinion ... is that we need new, and younger blood in this hobby, and in order to do so, let's show little Johnny that it's possible to model the train he "goes into town on, with his Mum and Dad" - it may be a Pacer, or Sprinter, but show him something he recognises, and that is within his grasp; and you may well hook him . . . I have to agree with Brian here; my lad (7) loves things like Pendolinos and the Multiple Units he sees, even the ones on our local line. he has a Hornby Pendolino, and wants a London Midland unit of some description, and wants us to make a model based on a Station near us, (which is merely (to me) two platforms on a mainline) so he can whizz his units through... They are what he knows, sees and gets inspiration from. To me the modern UK railway holds little interest, and Companies and liveries seem to come and go as regularly as Football team strips, but I am comparing it with former times. There was a comment earlier about today's colourful liveries making up for lack of variety in stock - that made me smile, as it is the exact opposite to the BR Blue Era where it was the variety of stock that made up for the lack of colour... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Pretty much all except era 1 & 2, I should say! John E. Era 1 & 2, what are those then. Oh, some marketing invention of the RTR manufacturers, to help their customers avoid having a knowledge of railway history . I believe that many people model what they can most readily relate to. We probably spend much less time using or actually looking at the railways than we used to, but get our information from magazines. Often that's the modelling press, so what we see in there - including adverts and reviews, not just layouts - influences what we model. So why do I model the LNWR in 1907? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 I believe that many people model what they can most readily relate to. We probably spend much less time using or actually looking at the railways than we used to, but get our information from magazines. Often that's the modelling press, so what we see in there - including adverts and reviews, not just layouts - influences what we model. So why do I model the LNWR in 1907? Because you like it? It was certainly a very elegant railway. Perhaps it may be for much the same reason I model the railway of 20 years before I was born: not through any 'nostalgia'* or 'affinity' for it, nor for the railway I knew as a child, but because I actually enjoy the challenge of research and construction of models and the period doesn't actually matter to me all that much - it just happens to be the period dad has always modelled, even back when it was 'new'. That said, actually modelling 'The Modern Image' as Cyril Freezer described it, was pretty unusual for the late '60s by all accounts. I gather that a certain amount of bemusement greeted his plasticard Pressed Steel single car and D63xx (TOPS hadn't happened then) when he made them, but they were the railway he knew and then, as now, making things is actually the fun of it for him as it is for me. OK, so that's the personal, but the general point is rather different. Different bits of the forum seem skewed in different ways, the areas devoted to the big manufacturers has a rather different focus to say, kitbuilding and scratchbuilding. I spend more time looking at the latter than I do the former, but given where my interest in modelling comes from, isn't that inevitable? Adam *I can't say that I yearn for that railway to return, not because it wasn't interesting: I find the fourteenth century interesting, very sophisticated and slightly alien, but I wouldn't really want to live there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 I believe that many people model what they can most readily relate to. We probably spend much less time using or actually looking at the railways than we used to, but get our information from magazines. Often that's the modelling press, so what we see in there - including adverts and reviews, not just layouts - influences what we model. That's potentially a far-reaching statement, what about extending it further and saying that many people get their information largely from the Internet? Certainly it frequently seems the case on here that somebody asks a question about locos and stock in a given area, but doesnt appear to have (nor be willing to buy) even the most basic library on the subject. I often wonder how somebody actually knows he wants to model a given line at a given period unless he's drawn some inspiration from books or mags, but maybe Jim is right when he spotlights the problem of folk being inspired by other models, to the exclusion of reality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Agree. We all have our favourite aspects of modeling and mine happens to be research. I will ask on here for kickstarts like photos of a particular location I'm not familiar with etc. Modeling other models is NOT the way to go, in my opinion too. By the way how do collectors of Hornby, Bachmann etc., skew the development of new models? Does someone really have a layout where all the A4's run? That's just an aside. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 The reference to "kettles" a little earlier interests me. When people only remember boxes-on-wheels and mickymice trams, I can understand why such things are omnipotent to them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 The reference to "kettles" a little earlier interests me. When people only remember boxes-on-wheels and mickymice trams, I can understand why such things are omnipotent to them. Personnally, I haven't got anything against self propelled steam heating boilers.......... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Agree. We all have our favourite aspects of modeling and mine happens to be research. I will ask on here for kickstarts like photos of a particular location I'm not familiar with etc. Modeling other models is NOT the way to go, in my opinion too. By the way how do collectors of Hornby, Bachmann etc., skew the development of new models? Does someone really have a layout where all the A4's run? That's just an aside. Best, Pete. Hopefully someone wil have a layout where all 10 Baby Deltic's run in the near future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.