Top-heavy with modern image layouts. Why's that then?

[James]

Stand away from the track at many points along the likes of the Settle-Carlisle, Rannoch Moor or Dawlish Sea Wall and very little will have changed in 50 years.

In many places the change from telegraph poles to troughing will be the biggest visual change from a distance.

 

To those with a deeper understanding of railways the differences will be obvious and the realism will be destroyed by multi period trains running through.

[ForestPines]

Stand away from the track at many points along the likes of the Settle-Carlisle, Rannoch Moor or Dawlish Sea Wall and very little will have changed in 50 years.

Even if you want something more urban there are still plenty of places with semaphore signalling. Even stations like Hebden Bridge is very reminiscent of days gone by.

 

Of the three lines mentioned there, two have lost their semaphore signals in the last 30 years - I think both during the 80s. Of course, there are plenty of spots where, both then and now, there's no signals (or stop boards) in sight. Since then, there have been fewer changes: I notice a couple of my Teignmouth-Dawlish photos show some rather sturdy fencing on the landward side of the track, anti-rockfall fences I presume, which look rather new on the (2007-dated) photos.

 

Here's a picture of Haw... *cough* Garsdale, taken 3 years ago. I have to admit, it looks very nice. But what is there in the picture that would have been different 40 years ago? And, to you personally, does it matter? Feel free to ignore the track if you wish; at the same time, Ribblehead station had an interesting mixture of jointed wooden-sleeper FB on the down and new-looking concrete-sleepered welded FB on the up. I'm sure that my next layout (when it does appear) will not have prototypical track, because, frankly, right now I'm more concerned about getting something running quickly than perfecting my track-tweaking skills. But that's my choice, and I'm happy with it.

 

(if you model the signalbox interior, make sure you don't miss out the fridge and the microwave! Or, for that matter, the mobile phone which seemed glued to the signalman's ear all the time I was at Garsdale, even as he was signalling a train through the station).

[Stubby47]

Stand away from the track at ... <snip> ...Dawlish Sea Wall

 

Depending on how far way from, and which side of , the track you stand, you'll either be in the cliff or in the sea !

[richardz]

Modern image?

 

In the 50s HMV (the record company not the retailer) issued a History of Music on 27 LPs (remember them?). My copies of vol. 26 and 27 are titled Modern Music 1890-1950.

 

Most of the 80's are now a quarter of a century ago - that's not modern, then neither am I.

 

So what is modern image? Post-Privatisation for sure - but not for much longer.

 

Love that New Street photo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[298]

Why not? If a steam era modeller can happily run from early BR steam into late BR steam with the odd green diesel thrown in then why not a D&E modeller?

 

It's not less accurate/inaccurate. There are plenty of prototype locations that have changed very little over the years and for many of those it's easy to run something as diverse as a LMS unfitted freight followed by a Voyager. As long as there's nothing obviously out of place (1980s cars in a 1960s scene for example) then where's the harm? There are plenty of exhibition layout that manage two era over a weekend.

 

In my early post I mentioned drifting between the 1970s and 1980s - in my case it would be start off firmly in BR blue days and then as the operating hours progressed nudge the modelled date slowly forward. Start the day with D numbered loco hauled trains and end it with sector liveried Sprinters and Pacers. i.e. something like a class 150 wouldn't appear any where near a Peak.

 

Moving the era forward is an interesting concept but can fail on two counts, firstly the time taken to repeatedly settle the stock down and secondly because it is only of benefit to those at every day of the show, rather than the casual visitor who has paid to be there. There is also the issue of having to bring extra stock, and getting the operators to stick to the plan, rather than just putting their favourites on the layout.

 

And as for mixing the years, having thought about it I think with the right layout it can work quite well, as long as the overall scene the train passes through also fits the era. We already compromise the prototypical headways between trains and often run them at the higher end of their scale speed, so where's the harm in presenting the layout with "trains from the 1980's" on...? Alot of my own stock wouldn't be seen alongside our flagship, the APT, yet it is a popular model and often requested when seen in the fiddle yard. And one of my favourite layouts appeared in "Great Model Railroads", running an unlikely mix of Union Pacific Big Boys, Challengers, and Big Blow Gas Turbines. The tag line stated the layout was stocked as if nothing had been retired, and the mix of black steam and armour yellow was irresistable.

[Pacific231G]

 

I think my point is that modellers often like to encompass everything in a short phrase to describe their chosen era. I've heard people say they model 'steam'. Which could mean anything between 1800 or so and 1968 in the UK. Pretty meaningless. Similarly the railway has changed so much in the 'diesel era' that referring to the railway in such terms makes it very hard for the viewer/reader/listener/badger to even try and round down what it might mean.

 

I know it won't be popular here because it's "foreign" but I do find the system of epochs developed by MOROP more useful than "steam era" or "modern image". They follow a general pattern and are then specified for each country's specific railway history with the epochs overlapping by a few years. Apart from Ep I they cover roughly twenty years each but with the boundaries defined by major changes. Each epoch is subdivided to reflect specific changes.

 

If you were applying it to Great Britain you might define it as Epoch 1 pre grouping, Epoch II grouping to nationalisation with IId being the end of the war to 1948, Ep III (which is generally defined by MOROP as post war reconstuction and steam era) British Railways steam era up to the Beeching closures, Ep IV British Rail blue era, Ep V sectorisation and privatisation. Ep VI we're probably just entering in GB would be the arrival of multiple operators apart from the franchised TOCs (new operators through the channel tunnel for example)

 

For example I model France in Epoch IIIc (1956-1960) so even without specific research I know what rolling stock, liveries and markings are generally credible and which are anachronistic. I know that third class has been abolished, that wagon markings are pre the UIC numbering system and carriages don't yet carry the SNCF "lozenge" logo and that my railcars ought to have cream roofs. I also know that rather modern looking stainless steel carriages are around but probably only on the more prestigious expresses.

 

What's equally important is that the manufacturers know all this as well so can set their products in the appropriate era and market them accordingly.

 

David

[Pennine MC]

I know it won't be popular here because it's "foreign" but I do find the system of epochs developed by MOROP more useful than "steam era" or "modern image".

 

... (big snip) ...

 

What's equally important is that the manufacturers know all this as well so can set their products in the appropriate era and market them accordingly.

 

 

David, that's all very wonderful and lovely but the 'era' system used by Bachmann (and others?) was an attempt to do something similar for the UK market. We have of course discussed it previously but before anybody chimes in, I *know* it's far from perfect but it does seem reasonably established now and I suspect it's the best we'll get.

[billtee]

This is my first post, so hello to all, and I hope I can add my "two pennyworth" of comment.

I'm just coming back into OO gauge modelling, and considering DCC. I could go either of two ways:

(1) steam era

(2) diesel era

If I went with choice (1), I would have to then decide exactly WHAT years I would be modelling - pre-grouping, post-grouping, BR, etc.

If I go with choice (2) (which is my favoured choice at the moment!), I still have problems with the period I would be modelling, but the choice is (slightly) more limited. I could decide to model the period when I first arrived in Britain, ie. the BR blue livery period, or I could model the locomotives and stock I see passing my village NOW. This is a very colourful period (era 9 I think it is called according to all the adverts I read in RM, Hornby magazine, Model Railway magazine, BRM magazine, etc), but there's traps there too, as the TOCs keep changing their liveries!

Anyway, model railway modelling is all about the owner's choices, and who are we to question anyone else's choices?

I'm just pleased to 'meet' other railway modellers who are willing to share their experiences and knowledge - I'll be needing all their help over the following years.

All the very best to everyone,

Bill

 

 

[Pacific231G]

Hmmm 1980's layout with a voyager...

 

 

(of course if you know the prototype you will know that bullhead pointwork is correct for the 80's but wrong for the 2000's)

 

Cheers

 

Jim

 

Slightly OT perhaps but how much bullhead is still in use on Network Rail's empire? I'm curious because I read recently that RFF (French equivalent ..sort of!!) had been having maintenance difficulties with the quite large amount of "double champignon" (i.e. bullhead) rail still in use on lesser used lines after welding odd bits of it together to make up complete lengths

[Pacific231G]

David, that's all very wonderful and lovely but the 'era' system used by Bachmann (and others?) was an attempt to do something similar for the UK market. We have of course discussed it previously but before anybody chimes in, I *know* it's far from perfect but it does seem reasonably established now and I suspect it's the best we'll get.

I'd heard about the era system but rather had the impression that it hadn't been very widely accepted. I've not seen it mentioned in general discussions here whereas on the French forums I subscribe to it's fairly common for someone to identify their layout as Ep III or Ep IV and that gives an idea of what generally fits. Clearly anyone is free to be as precise as they want to be but I think that most modellers probably just want to avoid obvious anachronisms. I might want to know what sort of wagons might be seen on a local goods train in the late 1950s but I probably don't care about the detailed history of each wagon and if I do I'll devote time to that research. Precise histories don't always help as for painting a reasonably believable picture it may be more useful to know what was typical of a period rather than possible.

[coachmann]

Bullhead track is quite widely used on Anglesey although it might have been eradicated on the mainline by now.

 

The 3½ branch from Llandudno Junction to Llandudno is still short-length bullhead in many places and one can still hear the old familiar ger-bumph....ger-bumph. Brandnew bullhead rail was delivered to Roman Bridge (Conway Valley branch) a few years ago for track relaying.

[Pennine MC]

I'd heard about the era system but rather had the impression that it hadn't been very widely accepted. I've not seen it mentioned in general discussions here whereas on the French forums I subscribe to it's fairly common for someone to identify their layout as Ep III or Ep IV and that gives an idea of what generally fits.

 

Yeah, that's fair comment and TBH I wouldnt like to explain why that is, other than that the European system has been in place much longer.

[Oldddudders]

David, that's all very wonderful and lovely but the 'era' system used by Bachmann (and others?) was an attempt to do something similar for the UK market. We have of course discussed it previously but before anybody chimes in, I *know* it's far from perfect but it does seem reasonably established now and I suspect it's the best we'll get.

I find Hattons' use of the era system to be invaluable when sorting through categories - it limits the number of items in any search. To further subdivide it would make life for such people quite difficult, without adding much real value to the consumer.

[Classsix T]

In many places the change from telegraph poles to troughing will be the biggest visual change from a distance.

 

To those with a deeper understanding of railways the differences will be obvious and the realism will be destroyed by multi period trains running through.

Indeed James, speed limit markers for one. The ones with "SP" for units and loco hauled on the same board are now common.

The late Keith Wright presented me with a new reason to get agitated about my models (and to a certain extent other's models and preserved locos) when he pointed out the three variations of OLE warning flashes and the eras of use!

 

Why, instead of the commonly used era descriptions, don't modellers just tell us which year(s) they are replicating? My Peterborough layout is strictly May 1980 and "Castle Fenton" will be 1996-9. You figure out what "period" it is!

 

C6T.

[Edwin_m]

I'm a little confused about what eras are being discussed here.

 

I believe Dewsbury Midland, and probably other exhibition layouts too, can be operated in a 50s or an early 70s era just by switching a few things like station signs and road vehicles (and obviously rolling stock). I don't think many people object to that. To my way of thinking the routes that were neither closed nor heavily modernised changed very little during this period, with small but giveaway infrastructure changes and general rationalisation only really creeping in from the mid-70s onwards. So you can possibly get away with running the same layout in either the steam or the blue diesel era, though many would say this was not "Modern Image".

[coachmann]

In the 1950's the railways remained pretty well in as-built condition except for layers of encrusted soot. Station were fully staffed (over staffed in fact). By the end of the 1950's DMU's were in full swing on existing infrastucture in an attempts to cut operating costs. The Beeching cuts started in the early 1960s but they hardly touched some mainlines until the end of thre summer timetable of 1964. From the end of that year onwards, goods yards started to be ripped up, intermediete stations started to close and station canopies and footbridges started to be removed. I dont think any part of the railway system had been left untouched by the time of early 1970's, a time when the term bus-shelter revival period was coined. I remember vast areas of winlderness where once stood station goods yards and marshalling yards, ballast where slow lines and loops once stood and station bereft of platform canopies and even buildings. It doesn't seem possible to mix the two eras without changing the infrastructure as well.

[steve fay]

Well I'm 31 I model 1957-65 and the differences in these 9 years are incredible. Especially on the western, steam dominated to diesel take over.

I obviously have no memories of this time period but it's what my dad remembers as a kid & this time period fascinates me. If I was to model my train spotting days it would be 1989- 94.

Up untill recently my dad had a model railway shop and out of all our regular customers only one bought bang up to date modern image TOCs that's because what was going past his signal box.

Alot of kids like steam because of Thomas the blxxdy tank and Tornado has sparked alot of interest I know a few who model preserved steam now because you can run pretty much what you like. Then there's them who buy what ever they like regardless.

Given the time space and money I would love to model the early 90s or bang up to date with OHLE or all of them but as I model in O I'm already fighting for space and it's the nostalgia the smell of steam that always takes me back and makes me want to create what I've only seen in books or the closest a preserved railway can take me and of course my dads memories:

That's what great about these sites it gives you the chance to enjoy what others have done and inspire you to create something yourself.

Happy modelling

[Talltim]

Here's a picture of Haw... *cough* Garsdale, taken 3 years ago. I have to admit, it looks very nice. But what is there in the picture that would have been different 40 years ago?

 

Well, to tell the truth the first thing I notice was the strip of tactile paving! and I suspect that Jim's New Street would need them too, to be contemporary with a Voyager (posiibly could get away with it for the first few years of Voyagers)

[Pacific231G]

.

Alot of kids like steam because of Thomas the blxxdy tank and Tornado has sparked alot of interest I know a few who model preserved steam now because you can run pretty much what you like. Then there's them who buy what ever they like regardless.

Despite the fact that they disappeared from normal services on the national network over forty years ago, possibly before even their parents' time, it does occur to me that there must be an awful lot of children who have only ever experienced full size railways operated by steam locos. For actual journeys, including visits to preserved railways, they travel by car and being a normal railway passeng... sorry customer will come much later.

 

David

[Flying Pig]

More off-topic rambling re:ForestPines' picture of Garsdale

 

Well, to tell the truth the first thing I notice was the strip of tactile paving! and I suspect that Jim's New Street would need them too, to be contemporary with a Voyager (posiibly could get away with it for the first few years of Voyagers)

 

...and the deep ballasting (and the catch pits between the rails?). The station has a distinctly tarted-up air too: the barge board on that right hand building is saying UPVC to me and I doubt the gas lamps would have been so showy in the late steam era, let alone by 1971 (now 40 years ago!).

 

Here's a picture dated 1987 but it perfectly reflects the sadly reduced 1970s era coachmann was talking about. Note the concrete post and chain-link (not Midland Railway-pattern wooden) fence, electric streetlamps (and not many of them), decayed platform surfaces and apparently less generously ballasted track. The original moulded barge boards on the right hand building increase my suspicion that it now has UPVC replacements. Starting signal appears to be in a different position and doesn't have the heavy modern elven safety lamping platform (BR employed hobbits for lamping); prominent "passengers must not procede..." notice from the later picture absent.

 

Lots of small details, but they go together to make up the character and atmosphere and they change over the years.

[Russ (mines a pint)]

Indeed I noticed Garsdale cropping up amongst some of the examples and remember well eating primus stove cooked food on the platform it was indeed a 'closed' station for almost 20 yrs as were most of the S&C intermediate stations, the buildings would be closed locked and generally shambolic in appearance only stopping service was the 'Dalesrail' wasn't it monthly?

 

3 and a half hours sat on Ribblehead's platform in pitch black (there was only one then!) dare not go down the pub for a pint in case we missed it, properly into the dark when the ailing unit finally turned up behind a kingmoor 25, nostalgia aint what it used to be!

[Aidan]

Despite the fact that they disappeared from normal services on the national network over forty years ago, possibly before even their parents' time, it does occur to me that there must be an awful lot of children who have only ever experienced full size railways operated by steam locos. For actual journeys, including visits to preserved railways, they travel by car and being a normal railway passeng... sorry customer will come much later.

 

David

 

 

All my model railways, in any scale have been steam outline. My loco fleet is entirely steam, except for a single class 31....and even that runs in LNER green (my Dads idea of a joke) . The simple reason for this is that all my earliest memories of rail travel involve steam...At home in Lancashire Id see hulking black 5s and 8fs and 4mt tanks in grimey rain soaked yards...on holiday in sunny Devon (and it was ALWAYS sunny!) everything was bright green and copper capped shining in the summer sun. Often the first sight of the sea would be from a Great Western carriage hauled by a manor or hall. To me the GWR was synonymous with summer holidays, which mght be why almost all my railways have been GWRBLTs. I dont recall even seeing a diesel untill I started having to commute to work at 27 years old.

 

BTW....Im now 28!

[James]

Did you never travel by train or even see a mainline in yoru first 27 years?

['CHARD]

Did you never travel by train or even see a mainline in yoru first 27 years?

 

I think it's a spoof, James. Either that or we have a new Timelord member on RMWeb

[James]

or we have a new Timelord member on RMWeb

Well if he brings Karen Gillan with him I'll forgive him his quaint little ways!