coachmann Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Four windows in a driving trailer end sounds to be coaches converted by the Southern Railway...possible candidates being ex LSWR and SE&CR non-corridor coaches. I have no info on p&p working on S&D lines by me at present. The S&DJR MR 0-4-4T's were fittted with auto vac gear but (so far) I have not come across any push pull trains in Ivo Peters albums. Pictures Nos 18 & 19 in Vol 1 show 58086 and 58047 on ex LMS Period III and I coaches, none of which were push pull fitted. Piocture no.121 shows 58051 on two LMS non-corridors, a Period I third and a Period III brake third, again not push pull fitted. There are pictures in Volume 2 showing 58086 at Evercreech and at Cole with the branch train to Highbridge, but as the leading coach is a LMS lavatory composite, the train is clearly not working push & pull. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS239 Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Four windows in a driving trailer end sounds to be coaches converted by the Southern Railway...possible candidates being ex LSWR and SE&CR non-corridor coaches. I have no info on p&p working on S&D lines by me at present. Just checked in the Middleton book,and these are definitely NOT S.R. vehicles [checked with the Mike King book on SR P/P coaches],the Middleton book shews 3 different types of P/P trailer,all working with 1P 0-4-4T's [single driving trailers,no intermediate trailers],as described by Buffalo,the final shot being of an ex-LMS steel panelled vehicle [not sure what the diag. no. is, but in appearance it is identical to a D.1735 but fitted with driving end windows,and without guard's duckets,presumably D.1790 that Buffalo refered to earlier],as I mentioned in a previous post,this latter coach would be a straightforward conversion of the Grafar R-T-R coach,which matches D.1735,just file off the duckets and fit a Comet end.. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Unless I missed something somewhere (in which case - sorry), there's been no mention of the ex-Airfix/Dapol 57' lav. n/c stock - were any of the brake thirds converted for p/p working? It just seems a fairly easy job to fit a driving end to a brake third - too easy, probably! None of the LMS Lavatory brake thirds were converted to push & pull working so forget the Airfix conversion. There is no easy solution without building a kit. Lots of folks have used the 00 Graham Farish Suburban Brake as a basis for conversion. Plenty about at swapmeets in various liveries but all the same moulding underneath. It may not be the finest coach ever made but it does the job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Just checked in the Middleton book,and these are definitely NOT S.R. vehicles [checked with the Mike King book on SR P/P coaches]. So what exactly were they then. Four driving windows was not an LNWR, MR or LMS feature. They used three windows. Ex LSWR push pull set...4 -windows.... LMS push pull driving trailer....3 windows... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 One of the four window ends shown in the Middleton Press book is similar to Larry's LSWR example, but on the photo, there's no set number, the upper lamp bracket is between the windows, there are no steps and the vacuum and regulator pipes are upright, not hanging. Also, the two outer windows are wider than the panelling and may be droplights. The two inner windows are correspondingly narrower. The one that I believe to be a D1790 (converted D1735) is, apart from the Livery, pretty much identical to Larry's 3-window photo, apart from the absence of duckets.. ...The S&DJR MR 0-4-4T's were fittted with auto vac gear... As far as I can tell, (all?) the conventional ones were but the ones with condensing pipes (at least from photos, 58072/3) were not. Makes sense, really, because the vacuum regulator valve is fitted where the condensing pipe emerges from the smokebox and different smokebox internals would be needed if it were removed. Nick EDIT: the last statement about all of the non-condensing 1Ps being motor fitted is a little misleading as it was made in the context of those working on the branch and surviving to nationalisation. Since then, I've realised that many of the 1Ps allocated to Bath by the LMS in the 1930s and 1940s were not motor fitted. These mostly worked services to Bristol via Mangotsfield, the stoppers to Templecombe, and Templecombe to Highbridge/Burnham. There are several pictures including 1334, 1350 and 1408 in the Lightmoor Press collection of Norman Lockett photos entitled The Somerset & Dorset Railway 1935-1966. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Easy to tell. Two stand pipes and a lower pipe on bufferbeam of push pull fitted locos. In the meantime I am looking at coaches again prompted by Buffalo's entry above. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 What is the basis of the xLSWR set Larry ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Easy to tell. Two stand pipes and a lower pipe on bufferbeam of push pull fitted locos... Yes, what I really meant to say was that I hadn't examined photos of all of them yet. However, I've just discovered a photo of 55, one of the S&D's own Vulcan built tanks fitted with P&P pipes and regulator mechanism. The photo is in Bradley & Milton, Somerset & Dorset Locomotive History, and shows the engine 'as rebuilt in 1925' in S&D livery (so pre-1930). This particular engine was withdrawn at the end of 1932 and replaced with an LMS tank. So, we have some evidence for P&P in S&D days Nick edit: another photo of 55 before 1925 reboilering shows it withround-top firebox and Johnosn boiler fittings, but without PP gear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 What is the basis of the xLSWR set Larry ? Northstar Design's own coaches, available ready-built & painted but not as kits. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 Northstar Design's own coaches, available ready-built & painted but not as kits. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 7, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 7, 2011 Northstar Design's own coaches, available ready-built & painted but not as kits. Yes, but due to demand, only available to existing customers, which is very fair, but hardly helpful to those who aren't! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Yes, but due to demand, only available to existing customers, which is very fair, but hardly helpful to those who aren't! I was merely responding to a question my friend. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Yes, what I really meant to say was that I hadn't examined photos of all of them yet. However, I've just discovered a photo of 55, one of the S&D's own Vulcan built tanks fitted with P&P pipes and regulator mechanism. The photo is in Bradley & Milton, Somerset & Dorset Locomotive History, and shows the engine 'as rebuilt in 1925' in S&D livery (so pre-1930). This particular engine was withdrawn at the end of 1932 and replaced with an LMS tank. So, we have some evidence for P&P in S&D days Nick I've finally got up off my backside and consulted my books (which seem by and large to be the same as Nick's). The 1930s version of the push-pull train on the Wells branch seems from the semi-elliptical shape of the roof to be an exS&D vehicle converted (in the LSWR style) but at an unknown date – could have been pre-1930. In the 1950s they seems to have used a standard steel sided LMS vehicle – I have no idea of diagram numbers for LMS coaches. The S&D coach seems to have been one of the six compartment brake/3rds with the compartment at the opposite end to the guard converted into a driving compartment. Just to confuse things there is a photo in Austin's book (p54) showing PP fitted loco 58046 with a coach described as exS&D but which looks more like an exLNWR vehicle – this may have been the one with the strangely high-set windows in the driving end. I'm sure Larry/Coachman could fill us in on the possibilities (it's a 5 compt B/3rd with a longish van section and a guard/driver bit at the (far) end; I can't lay my hands on a photo of the driver's end. The date of this was 1950 so it was presumably intermediate between the S&D and the LMS trailers. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 This is intriguing. If Ivo Peters didnt photograph any push pull trains in 1950 I wonder if they had been discontinued on the S&DJR. Re. the LNWR coach with highish windows in the end, I would need to see a photo. The LNW seemed to have a standard style of driving trailer end that was fitted regardless of date of conversion to push pull. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 As far as I can work out, P&P continued until the branch closed at the end of October 1951. As to Ivo Peters, the Wells branch never seems to have been high on his priorities Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 This is intriguing. ... I would need to see a photo. I've sent you a PM. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 As far as I can tell, (all?) the conventional ones were but the ones with condensing pipes (at least from photos, 58072/3) were not. Makes sense, really, because the vacuum regulator valve is fitted where the condensing pipe emerges from the smokebox and different smokebox internals would be needed if it were removed. As far as I am aware, it was only those 0-4-4Ts (and 3F 0-6-0Ts) which were intended to work the London suburban services which were fitted with condensing aparatus. Those which worked in the open air would not need it so the S&DJR locos would not be condensers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 Drifting back to the Southern for a moment. An email from Roxey confirms they do not do the LSWR driving trailer( a stalled project) So could the LBSCR ones have founf their way to the West Country ? And would they have lasted until about 1960 ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Buffalo sent me some pictures via a PM and so to bring this thread up to date I attach the following.... The first picture behind 1P 0-4-4T 58086 is an LMS Period II push-pull driving trailer in LMS lined livery but with M prefix number. Example numbers being 24405, 24460-24468 without duckets. The coach behind 58046 is indeed an LNWR vehicle. It is a 50ft X 9ft cover-roof D338 brake thirds built in 1906, nine of which were converted to push pull diagram M71. The coach in the picture is No.24477 which left the LNWR system to work on the Wells branch. It was lit from either jumper cables or batteries in the guards van. It was built as LNWR 721 for Birmingham District Set 20, which was converted to push pull operation in June 1912. Later running numbers were LNWR 7125 and LMS 7976 before 1933. The last of these coaches was withdrawn in March 1955. Note the alteration to double doors at the driving end. The coach under the overall roof with low eliptical roof is presumed to be a S&DJR vehicle as it looks niether Midland nor LSWR but has characteristics of both Derby and Eastleigh. Hope this assists. Larry 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Buffalo sent me some pictures via a PM and so to bring this thread up to date I attach the following.... The coach behind 58046 is indeed an LNWR vehicle. It is a 50ft X 9ft cover-roof D338 brake thirds built in 1906, nine of which were converted to push pull diagram M71. Hope this assists. Larry London Road Models do a kit for the M71, see http://www.scalefour.org/londonroad/lnwrcarriages.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Many thanks, Larry, this has really moved us on a few steps in understanding what was used on the Wells branch The first picture behind 1P 0-4-4T 58086 is an LMS Period II push-pull driving trailer in LMS lined livery but with M prefix number. Example numbers being 24405, 24460-24468 without duckets. From other photos, I'm reasonably certain that it was 24466. As we've said before, this can be built from a Comet D1735 kit with their driving end. The coach behind 58046 is indeed an LNWR vehicle. It is a 50ft X 9ft cover-roof D338 brake thirds built in 1906, nine of which were converted to push pull diagram M71. The coach in the picture is No.24477 which left the LNWR system to work on the Wells branch... Good to have that confirmed as I know nothing about LNWR stock. Is there any information about when it went to the branch? The coach under the overall roof with low eliptical roof is presumed to be a S&DJR vehicle as it looks niether Midland nor LSWR but has characteristics of both Derby and Eastleigh. The search goes on London Road Models do a kit for the M71, see http://www.scalefour...rcarriages.html Thanks for that, looks like I'll be building two kits... As far as I am aware, it was only those 0-4-4Ts (and 3F 0-6-0Ts) which were intended to work the London suburban services which were fitted with condensing aparatus. Those which worked in the open air would not need it so the S&DJR locos would not be condensers. 58072/3 certainly were re-deployed condensing tanks though, as you say, the condensing apparatus was redundant on the S&D. They retained the external appearance in the form of external pipes, tank vents and the rod and lever for the valve on the left side of the smokebox. Whether the apparatus was in any way disabled, I don't know. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 8, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 8, 2011 Drifting back to the Southern for a moment. An email from Roxey confirms they do not do the LSWR driving trailer( a stalled project) So could the LBSCR ones have founf their way to the West Country ? And would they have lasted until about 1960 ? LBSCR Set 723 was on the Seaton branch from 1939-49. This was vehicles 3855 and 6250, brake third and corridor composite, Diagrams # 194 and 351. Lasted into the 50s on a more "natural" part of SR for a Brighton set, Central and SE sections. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted March 29, 2011 Author Share Posted March 29, 2011 Still looking around at xLMS push-pull options. One question does come to mind, would these have lining in BR days ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Push pull fitted coaches often had lining in BR days as if they were regarded as somewhat upmarket from other non-corridor coaches! I'm only going of memory here but I think only the Period III push pull coaches were lined out. On the 1949-56 BR carmine red, lining took the form of a single "yellow" & black line above the windows and immedietly below the windows. When maroon was adopted in 1956 the waist lining changed to yellow-black-yellow and was often positioned at the same level as lining on Stanier corridor stock. In otherwords the lining ran through the door handles. The end pipes were coloured as shown in my carriage workbench:- http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/blog/310/entry-5586-non-corridor-suburban-coaches/ 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 29, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 29, 2011 Regrettably consulting the S&DJtR Appendix adds little. The 1933 edition contains 'instructions' relating to push-pull trains but gives no clues at all about the way in which any part of them actually worked and does not cross reference to any other publication. However the May 1945 Supplement is a little more helpful as it adds the following to the 1933 Instruction - 'These instructions are covered by the L.M.s. Booklet "Instructions respecting the working of Rail Motors and Motor Trains (E.R.O. 46483). Which might be regarded as suggesting that the trains were worked in the same way as LMS pus-pull trains although it might just be an amplification of the Instructions rather than anything relating to fittings etc? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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