National Railway Museum 'Search Engine'

[Mallard60022]

Good evening. Today I went to the NRM specifically to try and identify an LNER Coach Drawing in the archives. I had booked time and had a very helpful member of staff trying to help me. However, it turned out to be a fruitless visit in that I realised I had no idea how to 'target' the item I wanted. It seems that in the works lists I was looking at on the database it is impossible to identify what is in what 'box'. The boxes I guessed at were of no use at all.

Now I am happy to accept that I did not get my search plans right so my questions are these:

If I want to find out if the NRM has a specific LNER coach drawing and then, if they do, look at that drawing, can anyone tell me what the h**l do I ask for, or what lists do I start with?

I will get an Isinglass drawing, however I wanted more information on modifications and features in more detail than an Isinglass drawing can give in the size available (4mm).

If you have used the NRM archives successfully I would value your advice.

Many thanks in anticipation, Phil @ 36E

P.S. Had a great day though with the usual excellent lunch and I 'copped' 3 66s at Donny.

I also 'spied' Tornado's tender in lined BR Green with 'early crest', and her cab also in BR green (no lining yet) - very nice.

[Steph Dale]

Not a simple answer - and not really a simple question either ;-)

 

First off is the issue that most of a cataloguing has been done by volunteers, so despite very good intentions it's very inconsistent. It depends greatly on whether anyone has had the opportunity or inclination to pull together anything like a complete list. My interest is the Southern and I'm fortunate that the Brighton Atlantic guys did a very good job of cataloguing what they found was at the NRM in their search for drawings of the Atlantic.

 

Secondly, you're after info on a coach. These tend to be less well catalogued and even the Southern lists are incomplete in this regard. Without a date and batch or lot number and probably a diagram number you're pretty much on your own. If you know the works drawing number (or range) you stand a very much better chance. Which I guess means getting hold of the standard text on LNER coaches - if there is one?

 

Thirdly, you mention modifications? 'In service' modifications generally go unrecorded (you need history cards for that - try the Public Records Office maybe - although I am far from confident that they'd survive, if the LNER was even in the habit of creating them for coaches). If the modification was significant enough to have been given a lot or batch code then you may have some luck.

 

Fourthly, when at the NRM always start by checking the catalogue for the microfilm! The reproduction charges are cheaper, they're easier to get at and there are some real gems in there.

 

For a fifth option; join the relevant specialist (LNER) society. They may have more experience and practise in doing what you're asking about and may even have their own archive.

 

There is some good stuff out in the public domain too. You mention Isinglass which is a great source for info, there's also Mike Trice's underframe drawing(s) and there are books from Jenkinson and others on the subject. Sorry for the tentative nature of these references; LNER isn't my 'thing' and I'm working from some vague recollections...

 

I hope that helps? I usually go to the NRM with a lot of notes, copies of photos, text etc if I'm looking for something specific. I usually come home with lists of the drawings I want to order and then get them a few at a time as the modelling progresses. The NRM is a fabulous resource for us and I welcome the thought of more people making use of it.

 

Steph

[Mallard60022]

Thanks very much Steph. That's a start. It is getting the right stuff from the catalogue I couldn't fathom, however I am certainly in touch with various LNER 'experts' and have the 'tomes' so will get some more detail before I try again.

P.

[Rob Pulham]

Hi Phil, what are you looking for specifically? I have all the Harris books and would be more than willing to have a look for you. I have gathered quite a bit of information in preparation for my JLRT Coach builds.

[ahardy]

Hi there,

 

I agree with the above comments. The best way to find things is to come prepared with every bit of information you have on your chosen item and be prepared to search in many different ways. A huge amount is still uncatalogued or not accessable on lists etc. I spend many of my lunch hours and breaks in Search Engine and sometimes can spend ages looking for items on lists, sometimes with no luck at all.

 

If you wish to send me what your looking for, I will add it to my list of things to keep an eye out for whilst in Search Engine.

 

Andy H

[Kenton]

If I want to find out if the NRM has a specific LNER coach drawing and then, if they do, look at that drawing, can anyone tell me what the h**l do I ask for, or what lists do I start with?

I think that is what a librarian is supposed to do - provide the interface between the weakly informed public and the vast array of books/maps/drawings and other data in their edifice. If they are unable to provide that service then they might as well just be stackers in a warehouse, or rearranging the deck-chairs.

Perhaps you just had the trainee or things have gone downhill. It is some years since I last used the service and they were more helpful then. It does help to be specific but they should be asking you the right questions to help them find the correct box. Of course if you have no clue what you are looking for or can't answer their questions you could find yourself going away with more research to do. However, they should be giving some pointers.

[craigwelsh]

I think that is what a librarian is supposed to do - provide the interface between the weakly informed public and the vast array of books/maps/drawings and other data in their edifice. If they are unable to provide that service then they might as well just be stackers in a warehouse, or rearranging the deck-chairs.

Perhaps you just had the trainee or things have gone downhill. It is some years since I last used the service and they were more helpful then. It does help to be specific but they should be asking you the right questions to help them find the correct box. Of course if you have no clue what you are looking for or can't answer their questions you could find yourself going away with more research to do. However, they should be giving some pointers.

I'd challenge any librarian to find the right item out of say 60 items labelled 'coach'. The limitation of many of the cataloged archives within search engine is that they are cataloged based purely on what they had written on them by non experts in many cases. The Southern drawings are an exception I believe as quite a few volunteer groups have been involved in those. Pleas for help have gone out to the GWR societies for volunteers to start cataloging that stuff.

 

Your ideal first step is to work out which site/establishment carried out the work as they are generally separate lists per place.

 

You then need every possible bit of information possible about the item in question to search on. Eg Lot numbers, diagram numbers, type etc.

 

When I was there I wanted drawings of the Stove R. Two references came up via this search both from 1969 when electric lighting was being installed in some. There weren't any more drawings as the Wolverton cataloging isn't finished yet and all of the Stove R's were built there (its obviously also possible the drawings are gone ). There are plenty of drawings of the Derby 50ft Full Brake built at the same time though you needed the diagram number to know that..

 

You should be able to go past the box level to an individual drawing for stuff that is cataloged though generally its worth asking for the full set in a box anyway as they are normally related from the original works when they were put in the box.

 

Take your digital camera and you can photograph the drawings as much as you want, I took over 400 images on my last visit to do some more searching through the uncatalogued GWR boxes (over 600 of them and the C+W stuff hasn't been boxed yet!).

 

The staff are as helpful as they can be though some do have more experience and knowledge of where things are stored behind the scenes than others. Its worth persevering as you really can turn up some gems in there.

 

Lord of the Isles driving wheel drawings was my last interesting aside when getting the drawings for the inside motion of my 28xx! Class 22 windscreen drawings for Pilkingtons being another! Don't forget though that some drawings will never be available to view publicly as they are too badly damaged, much of the rolls i've been dealing with were stuck firmly together with the dreaded selotape .

[Mallard60022]

Its worth persevering as you really can turn up some gems in there.

 

Yup. Thanks Craig.

When I was looking through stuff yesterday I came up with the file number for recordings from that rather special day in July 1938 when a southbound A4 did something rather special! Didn't have time to look them out though.

What I hadn't realised I think is that the archive is in it's infancy.

It does seem odd though that one can't get to a section on LNER Coaches where one could then use the info one has on build date, Lot numbers, Diagram Number etc.

As the coach I'm researching is the Gresley Buffet in the Scotsman exhibition then I would have thought that there would be some stuff to hand. Maybe next time I'll just follow that track after contacting them first.

On a slightly different track I think we should note that the NRM is hard pressed to get stuff sorted and maybe we should be doing something about that?

Phil @ 36E

[craigwelsh]

What I hadn't realised I think is that the archive is in it's infancy.

It does seem odd though that one can't get to a section on LNER Coaches where one could then use the info one has on build date, Lot numbers, Diagram Number etc.

As the coach I'm researching is the Gresley Buffet in the Scotsman exhibition then I would have thought that there would be some stuff to hand. Maybe next time I'll just follow that track after contacting them first.

On a slightly different track I think we should note that the NRM is hard pressed to get stuff sorted and maybe we should be doing something about that?

Phil @ 36E

 

Did you look at the pdf search file for the following archive on the computer?

 

LNER Carriage & Wagon Drawings (2004-7434)

An amalgamated collection of some 15,000 carriage & wagon drawings from Cowlairs, Darlington, Doncaster, Dukinfield, Gateshead, Gorton Shildon and York Works, 1853 to 1967.

 

This would be the collection you'd find the drawings you want in if they exist. The archive wont have been broken down further than where it was sourced.

 

I doubt they would have specifically flagged anything that was related to their buffet but you could try. It all depends on how knowledgeable about the subject the people doing the catalogue of that collection were.

 

I think the proper achieving at York has only really been possible since "Search Engine" was established giving the back room facilities required to store the records correctly. The Swindon stuff was only recently transferred in from somewhere else. Mind you they should rename the place now really, search engine has a whole new meaning now and its just ironic that the most offline facility around is also called it .