pewky Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Dear all, I have just fitted a black beetle boggie in a irish resin body kit which works ok when the loco is alone. But i tried to pull a single coach today with no success. I did fit some weight in the kit and thought that i did not have enought of it. But when more weight was added on the locomotive itself still no pulling action at all. Is it common? This is a weight problem for sure what would be the best material to use? what material would have the best Weight?volume ratio as the space available is very limited Or shall I consider a other motor drive system all together? Bullant, holywood fundry? Thank you Luc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollywoodfoundry Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Luc, What locomotive are you modelling? Can you post a photo of it? A photo showing the model and where you have placed the weight would be very helpful. And can you describe what happens in a bit more detail? You are saying there 'is no pulling action at all', but are the wheels of the Black Beetle slipping or stalling? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37114 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I have a black beetle in a 128 DPU, weighted with about 15p's worth of 1 and 2p's sp about 40g, pulls itself and 2 guv's without problems. Try liquid lead and get as much weight as possible over the motor itself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I have found that a pair of black beetles in a multiple unit power car was able to haul eight similarly weighted trailer coaches at a scale 75mph OK before slipping started to become a problem when I added more. Wheel diameter will no doubt make a difference to tractive effort if yours is geared a little higher, and if you only have a single black beetle you will have only half the haulage capability, but you should be able to pull something in the region of three coaches OK with just a reasonable amount of weight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I have not found the pulling power the problem with the BB just its relatively poor gearing that makes them travel far too fast. When poorly weighted (like just about any chassis) this results in wheel spinning and loss of traction. If that is the problem more weight is the usual remedy (if you can) But if the problem is one of stalling then that is more serious as it is likely to lead to burn out of the motor. The best way to get weight up is liquid lead - but it is a bit awkward to work with (and not pleasant stuff) This is very fine lead shot that flows. Glue in place with a suitable epoxy or cyanoglue. There are larger lead shot - but obviously the larger the easier it is to handle but the poorer the space weight ratio. The next is florists wire, a sort of lead wire of about 1mm diameter used to tie flowers. Very flexible and can be wound round things. Finally if you have large areas (not the norm) lead flashing. If you do have plenty of space then there is always scrap white metal (much less toxic) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfwit Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Could you weigh the body, minus chassis? I would aim for a body weighing about 100 grams, evenly distrubuted, on a Black Beetle. You could add more but it is not recommended in the instruction sheet. Another source of lead is aquarium plant weight, comes in a roll and is about 6mm wide and 1mm thick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollywoodfoundry Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I have not found the pulling power the problem with the BB just its relatively poor gearing that makes them travel far too fast. When poorly weighted (like just about any chassis) this results in wheel spinning and loss of traction. Did you know the BB comes with an optional 27:1 gearing instead of the standard 15:1 gears? Unfortunately the UK importers do not seem to know of this option. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollywoodfoundry Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Could you weigh the body, minus chassis? I would aim for a body weighing about 100 grams, evenly distrubuted, on a Black Beetle. You could add more but it is not recommended in the instruction sheet. Another source of lead is aquarium plant weight, comes in a roll and is about 6mm wide and 1mm thick. Actually, the manufacturer is too conservative on that figure, the BB can reliably take much more weight. In fact, he is probably going to revise that figure with the next printing. I made an RTR diesel at one stage using two BBs with 27:1 Gears. It was weighted to a total of 275 grams for the weight of the whole locomotive. The loco was able to pull 45 four wheel wagons quite happily. Yet another surce of lead is the weights used to balance tyres, you should be able to get these from a tyre fitting garage. And as Suzie said, if your model is a diesel locomotive, then two BBs is a better way to go. After all, none of the real locomotive builders had one powered bogie and one non-powered. DMUs did yes, but not locomotives. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I use Black Beetles in 3 Car EMU's and they work fine however I do add weight to get traction. For a loco you really need 2 Black Beetles and some weight to get the pulling power. Xerces Fobe Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
corax67 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 If you are going to pile in the weight then ordinary lead flashing combined with liquid lead is a classic and effective method. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted March 13, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 13, 2011 Dear all, I have just fitted a black beetle boggie in a irish resin body kit which works ok when the loco is alone. But i tried to pull a single coach today with no success. I did fit some weight in the kit and thought that i did not have enought of it. But when more weight was added on the locomotive itself still no pulling action at all. Is it common? This is a weight problem for sure what would be the best material to use? what material would have the best Weight?volume ratio as the space available is very limited Or shall I consider a other motor drive system all together? Bullant, holywood fundry? Thank you Luc Am I alone in thinking the problem might not be with the BB & loco, but could it be the coach isn't free running enough? If the axles are binding on the trailer coach, then its equivalent to having the brakes on. What happens if you temporarily attach 2 or 3 free running wagons for example? Kevin Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pewky Posted March 13, 2011 Author Share Posted March 13, 2011 Luc, What locomotive are you modelling? Can you post a photo of it? A photo showing the model and where you have placed the weight would be very helpful. And can you describe what happens in a bit more detail? You are saying there 'is no pulling action at all', but are the wheels of the Black Beetle slipping or stalling? Here is a pictures of the unit. The coach is good runner despite I had to add two pick ups to feed a decoder (in the coach). The only space available is the bonnet and the cab. At the moment there is two pieces of lead in the bonnet still a bit of room but not so much. What material would have the best density? Luc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Minor point, but the balance weights on tyres are no longer made of lead, but tin,/zinc, lead was banned. So they are a lot lighter than you would expect, but a source of low grade pewter!! Lead is easily available in the form of lead flashing strips etc., from ironmongers etc. estimate the space, make a plastercine plug, cast plaster around it, dry the mould out completely and cast a weight in lead, it gets the max in the volume, beating even liquid lead. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollywoodfoundry Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Minor point, but the balance weights on tyres are no longer made of lead, but tin,/zinc, lead was banned. So they are a lot lighter than you would expect, but a source of low grade pewter!! Lead is easily available in the form of lead flashing strips etc., from ironmongers etc. estimate the space, make a plastercine plug, cast plaster around it, dry the mould out completely and cast a weight in lead, it gets the max in the volume, beating even liquid lead. Stephen. Well, there you go, you learn something every day. Here in Australia, they are still made of lead. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollywoodfoundry Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 OK Luc, now we can get an idea, it is a simple 4 wheel shunting locomotive. So you are going to need to put as much lead into the body as you can fit to get good traction. And as Kevin said, part of the problem may be with the coach. The pickups are going to reduce the rolling ability of the coach significantly, and to my eye they look too heavy for the job. Thinner pickups will work just as well, but will not exert as much force on the axles. As Kevin said, this is also a bit like applying the handbrake. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37114 Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Correct me if I am wrong but in the photo it looks like the coach and the loco are permanently wired together, if so then you could fit another BB to one of the coach bogies. I would fit more weight behind the bufferbeams at each end as well, looks like you have a lot of space. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfwit Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Plenty of space behind those bufferbeams for lead! Liquid lead could also be used under the bonnet to fill up the gaps around the existing weight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John M Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 I built one of these little locos several years ago based on a Worsley Works set of parts. Rather than tie the loco up with a permanently coupled coach why not mount a small decoder above the Black Beetle? I used a small ESU decoder which still leaves room under the hood to add liquid lead or fine shot to add weight. The only quibble is that the standard Black Beetle is a bit fast form most applications 28:1 Black Beetle would have been a better choice for a shunting loco. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Did you know the BB comes with an optional 27:1 gearing instead of the standard 15:1 gears? Unfortunately the UK importers do not seem to know of this option. I thought they were available with better than that. I like very slow running - my planks are short, and if it takes 1 second to travel from one end to the other I might as well pick it up and throw it. It is the 0-60 lurch that I also have issues with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Another thing to check with a Black Beetle is, are both the axles driving, I had a white metal kit of a Sentinel rail car (Ks?) in for repair as it couldn't haul itself, despite it's weight. On investigation one gear was slipping on the axle so the drive was effectively just the other axle, in one direction the railcar would just move but in the other the wheels (wheel) would just spin, this is apparently not unknown. The gear was secured and a little weight was added around the motor bogie, the weight that had been over the trailing bogie was removed to reduce the drag (due to the plain axle bearings) and ''hey presto'' a perfectly usable vehicle which could even haul four or five coaches, not prototypical of course. So in the case of the OPers shunter, check all wheels are spinning under load and put more weight where-ever you can get it or do the decent thing and fit a Highlevel motor bogie with a good slow ratio and sell the BlackBeetle on 'Hebay' Hope that helps. Dave F WWW.lanarkshiremodels.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted March 14, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 14, 2011 For weighting I use 2mm lead shot placed into little plastic bags. It gives most of the benefits of liquid lead (being able to manipulate it into odd spaces) without the mess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollywoodfoundry Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Another thing to check with a Black Beetle is, are both the axles driving, I had a white metal kit of a Sentinel rail car (Ks?) in for repair as it couldn't haul itself, despite it's weight. On investigation one gear was slipping on the axle so the drive was effectively just the other axle, in one direction the railcar would just move but in the other the wheels (wheel) would just spin, this is apparently not unknown. The gear was secured and a little weight was added around the motor bogie, the weight that had been over the trailing bogie was removed to reduce the drag (due to the plain axle bearings) and ''hey presto'' a perfectly usable vehicle which could even haul four or five coaches, not prototypical of course. So in the case of the OPers shunter, check all wheels are spinning under load and put more weight where-ever you can get it or do the decent thing and fit a Highlevel motor bogie with a good slow ratio and sell the BlackBeetle on 'Hebay' Hope that helps. Dave F WWW.lanarkshiremodels.com Are you sure that the Model you repaired had a Black Beetle? Or was it a Tenshodo SPUD? SPUDs are known for slipping gears, as they use plastic gears, whereas I have never heard of a slipping gear on a Black Beetle as they use brass gears on a steel axle. The High Level bogie is unlikely to be the correct wheelbase, as there is a very small range of wheelbases available and will extend upwards into the cab area. Most kits designed to accept SPUDS or Black Beetles are not necessarily able to take a High Level bogie without serious modification. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Hi Geoff, you may be right, I think it was a SPUD, it was a few years ago so I don't think the Black beetle was available then. Sorry to all for that. The Highlevel bogies are available with 34 and 40mm wheelbases and I would think if the wheelbase fits, the height would also be okay. I fitted one into a small industrial loco quite recently, lovely runner. Regards. Dave F www.lanarkshiremodels.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Did you know the BB comes with an optional 27:1 gearing instead of the standard 15:1 gears? Unfortunately the UK importers do not seem to know of this option. When I ordered mine I got a similar response "Well, everyone else used this one" when I asked for the correct one - they did order it OK for me though, but could not understand why I did not want to take what they had in stock. For me the 15:1 gearing was too high (I wanted 100mph rather than 75mph). I think that the 27:1 is only available with some of the configurations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollywoodfoundry Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 When I ordered mine I got a similar response "Well, everyone else used this one" when I asked for the correct one - they did order it OK for me though, but could not understand why I did not want to take what they had in stock. For me the 15:1 gearing was too high (I wanted 100mph rather than 75mph). I think that the 27:1 is only available with some of the configurations. Sadly, agents often just want to sell what they have in stock. They could just have easily ordered one specially for you. Or you can do so here: http://home.waterfront.net.au/~sem/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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