cctransuk Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Looking at the Bachmann sample photos http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/ I can't decide whether they're producing a power twin or a power / trailer unit; can anyone comment? Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Its a power/trailer set, although you can bet there will be other ones offered later! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingsmb Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Its a power/trailer set, although you can bet there will be other ones offered later! hopefully they will bring a 108 in blue, and hopefully :) do a 115 or 116 B) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 Its a power/trailer set, although you can bet there will be other ones offered later! Checking through "A Pictorial Record of British Railways Diesel Multiple Units", the Bachmann Cravens power / trailer set is from the batch allocated to the North Eastern Region". It'll thus be a bit 'unlikely' when combined with my Hornby Metro-Cammell LMR three car set and my Bachmann Derby LMR two car set as an S&D excursion of the type photographed by Ivo Peters !! At least they're all Blue Square coupling code, and so could have run together in multiple. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Looking at the Bachmann sample photos http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/ I can't decide whether they're producing a power twin or a power / trailer unit; can anyone comment? I did (comment), on the old forum. The lower shot is clearly a driving trailer Checking through "A Pictorial Record of British Railways Diesel Multiple Units", the Bachmann Cravens power / trailer set is from the batch allocated to the North Eastern Region". Not so, and again, covered on the old forum. By reference to the position of the van doors, it's what the Railcar site terms a batch 2 or 3, which were allocated to the LMR (NW and Midlands), E Anglia and Lincs, not the NER Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfield_Park Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I'm looking forward to this model coming out. Not sure whether to go for a Green SYP or a Blue one though. A bit of me is tempted to pick up one of Hornby's reworked Lima 101s in Blue and then grab a Green 105 - they'd be spot on for the Yorkshire coast. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 It would be handy if Bachmann offered non-driving trailers that cosmetically look like they have engines seeing as the hilly routes in Lancashire and Yorkshire had driving twins. Definitely mandatory equipment for anyone modelling say....er....Newhey. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted October 14, 2009 Author Share Posted October 14, 2009 I did (comment), on the old forum. The lower shot is clearly a driving trailer Not so, and again, covered on the old forum. Sorry - I didn't get to see your response before the old forum became inaccessible. By reference to the position of the van doors, it's what the Railcar site terms a batch 2 or 3, which were allocated to the LMR (NW and Midlands), E Anglia and Lincs, not the NER Well - I'm really confused !! The Railcar site says of Batch 2 "Batch Two DMBSs 50752-84 DMCs 50785-817 TCs 59307-25 - These 66 power cars and 19 trailers formed 19 3-car sets and 14 power twins for the LMR and were ordered at the start of 1956". How, therefore, can a power / trailer set be from Batch 2? Of Batch 3 it says "Batch Three DMBSs 51254-301 DTCs 56412-59 - These 48 power trailer sets were ordered around May '57 for the ER, and deliveries commenced in May '58". Reference to "A Pictorial Record of British Railways Diesel Multiple Units" suggests that Batch 3 was allocated to the NER; (though photo evidence indicates that the sets had E-prefix numbers and not NE prefixes). You're correct - the position of the guard's double doors on the Bachmann sample indicates a type A3 car; type A1 had the doors near the end of the guard's compartment. So - as far as I can see, the model cannot be a Batch 2 set as these were 3-car and power twin units, and that therefore indicates a Batch 3 subject and thus precludes LMR allocations for the first Bachmann release. If I'm misinterpreting the information which I've referred to, please do point this out as I'd very much welcome an excuse to renumber mine as an LMR set. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Well - I'm really confused !! The Railcar site says of Batch 2 "Batch Two DMBSs 50752-84 DMCs 50785-817 TCs 59307-25 - These 66 power cars and 19 trailers formed 19 3-car sets and 14 power twins for the LMR and were ordered at the start of 1956". ...You're correct - the position of the guard's double doors on the Bachmann sample indicates a type A3 car; type A1 had the doors near the end of the guard's compartment. So - as far as I can see, the model cannot be a Batch 2 set as these were 3-car and power twin units, and that therefore indicates a Batch 3 subject and thus precludes LMR allocations for the first Bachmann release. How, therefore, can a power / trailer set be from Batch 2? ...If I'm misinterpreting the information which I've referred to, please do point this out as I'd very much welcome an excuse to renumber mine as an LMR set. Apologies John, I wasnt as forthcoming or as lucid as I might have been there. I was speaking purely in terms of the body layout, and thinking that Bachmann could use it to represent LMR power twins if they swapped underframe bits around (as they have with the 108s) Of Batch 3 it says "Batch Three DMBSs 51254-301 DTCs 56412-59 - These 48 power trailer sets were ordered around May '57 for the ER, and deliveries commenced in May '58". Reference to "A Pictorial Record of British Railways Diesel Multiple Units" suggests that Batch 3 was allocated to the NER; (though photo evidence indicates that the sets had E-prefix numbers and not NE prefixes). That I cant explain; I dont have the Golding book but it looks like it's in error. There's plenty of evidence that Batch 3 went to the areas I stated, and the NER already had all of Batch 1 (bar the five LM sets, 50390 - 94 and trailers) so it's unlikely they'd have got so many more Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Being not too well up on diesel Units, are we saying the Bachmann model cannot represent the original Cravens? I saw the first ones on driver training in 1958 (power twins) on the Oldham Loop line and so is this type ruled out because of a door position even if one fitted an engined chassis? Larry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PaulCheffus Posted October 14, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 14, 2009 Apologies John, I wasnt as forthcoming or as lucid as I might have been there. I was speaking purely in terms of the body layout, and thinking that Bachmann could use it to represent LMR power twins if they swapped underframe bits around (as they have with the 108s) That I cant explain; I dont have the Golding book but it looks like it's in error. There's plenty of evidence that Batch 3 went to the areas I stated, and the NER already had all of Batch 1 (bar the five LM sets, 50390 - 94 and trailers) so it's unlikely they'd have got so many more Hi It also looks like Bachmann have copied the error in the Golding book as the window in the guards door should be in the rear door on both sides of the A3 DMBS. I haven't been able to find any photograph evidence that shows it as Bachmann have portrayed it. Now watch someone post a picture to prove me wrong and then I'll have to modify my converted DC Kits one This image better explains what I mean http://fenlandfotos.fotopic.net/p40168708.html Cheers Paul Edited to add image Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted October 14, 2009 Author Share Posted October 14, 2009 Being not too well up on diesel Units, are we saying the Bachmann model cannot represent the original Cravens? I saw the first ones on driver training in 1958 (power twins) on the Oldham Loop line and so is this type ruled out because of a door position even if one fitted an engined chassis? Larry Larry, It all depends on what you mean by the "original Cravens". Batch 1 was "... DMBSs 50359-94 DTCs 56114-49 - This consisted of 36 power/trailer sets, 31 for the NER and 5 for the LMR. The first 14 for the NER were the Leyland engined examples, later becoming Class 106. I found no reference to when the order was placed, although the first vehicles were delivered in August '56". They had cabs with four marker lights and a destination blind on the rainstrip, plus the guard's double doors were near the end of the guard's compartment. Batch 2 was "... DMBSs 50752-84 DMCs 50785-817 TCs 59307-25 - These 66 power cars and 19 trailers formed 19 3-car sets and 14 power twins for the LMR and were ordered at the start of 1956. They were quoted as intended to be used on the Birmingham, Manchester and Derby - Nottingham - Leicester areas. The first vehicles were delivered in Sep. '57". These had cabs with a central two-digit route description indicator flanked by two marker lights below the cab windows, and a destination blind on the rainstrip. The guard's double doors were nearer the centre of the compartment. Batch 3 was "... DMBSs 51254-301 DTCs 56412-59 - These 48 power trailer sets were ordered around May '57 for the ER, and deliveries commenced in May '58". This is the version modelled initially by Bachmann as a power / trailer unit; albeit Paul has pointed out that there is an error in siting the window in the double doors on one side. Thus the Bachmann model is not correct for the Batch 2 Oldham Loop power twins, though the cab ends and guard's compartment seem to be correct with the exception of the error pointed out by Paul. You might be able to fudge one by replacing the trailer under-chassis gear with that from a power car - those more expert than I will comment, I'm sure. However, Bachmann are sure to model a power twin in due course, (and may even correct the placing of the guard's door window by that time)! Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Hi John, Thanks for the very useful information. I had forgotten about the earliest versions without two-panel route indicators. Although I detested the darn things in the beginning, it seems to be human nature that 'dislike' becomes nostalgia as the years roll by. I think it was seeing a set going up to Blaenau Ffestiniog in the 1980's that stirred me as well as the fact that they were on their last legs. Larry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 From what I remember of the Scottish ones, they were always on their last legs, Larry! Didn't stop me liking them though! Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy C Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Larry, It all depends on what you mean by the "original Cravens". Batch 1 was "... DMBSs 50359-94 DTCs 56114-49 - This consisted of 36 power/trailer sets, 31 for the NER and 5 for the LMR. The first 14 for the NER were the Leyland engined examples, later becoming Class 106. I found no reference to when the order was placed, although the first vehicles were delivered in August '56". They had cabs with four marker lights and a destination blind on the rainstrip, plus the guard's double doors were near the end of the guard's compartment. Batch 2 was "... DMBSs 50752-84 DMCs 50785-817 TCs 59307-25 - These 66 power cars and 19 trailers formed 19 3-car sets and 14 power twins for the LMR and were ordered at the start of 1956. They were quoted as intended to be used on the Birmingham, Manchester and Derby - Nottingham - Leicester areas. The first vehicles were delivered in Sep. '57". These had cabs with a central two-digit route description indicator flanked by two marker lights below the cab windows, and a destination blind on the rainstrip. The guard's double doors were nearer the centre of the compartment. Batch 3 was "... DMBSs 51254-301 DTCs 56412-59 - These 48 power trailer sets were ordered around May '57 for the ER, and deliveries commenced in May '58". This is the version modelled initially by Bachmann as a power / trailer unit; albeit Paul has pointed out that there is an error in siting the window in the double doors on one side. Thus the Bachmann model is not correct for the Batch 2 Oldham Loop power twins, though the cab ends and guard's compartment seem to be correct with the exception of the error pointed out by Paul. You might be able to fudge one by replacing the trailer under-chassis gear with that from a power car - those more expert than I will comment, I'm sure. However, Bachmann are sure to model a power twin in due course, (and may even correct the placing of the guard's door window by that time)! Regards, John Isherwood. Thanks John After seeing the pre production pictures i spent Monday evening at Dean Hall leafing through the DMU bible and came up with much the same conclusion although I must admit I was confused -however i decided there and then the puchase would be made subject to a little butchery on the underframe - or even being cheeky and asking bachman if they have any spare so i can make the swap!! Yes Larry there will be a 105 on New Hey - how could there not be!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Yes Larry there will be a 105 on New Hey - how could there not be!! They looked great when they were new on the line. Well I suppose all the DMU's from the various manufacturers did, but the Cravens were somehow different. I remember a discussion in the local model shop about how things were beginning to go downhill in the 1960's when they overpainted the cats whiskers with a rectangular yellow panel! That's all we had to worry about then. Good job no one had read the tea leaves and foreseen Beeching.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Even though they were diseasels that were displacing the much loved N2s and N7s, they did have the massive merit of providing a forward view whenever the driver was kind enough to leave the screen up. Which he often did, to the delight of myself and my schoolboy contemporaries. That's the source of my nostalgia for these, and... ... back to the sounds they made, which at least a couple of us recalled on the previous RMweb3 thread as making these units BR's top comedy performers . Does anyone here know if the preserved unit is operational and in a location where it can be run sufficiently to get a good recording of the repertoire? Is it sufficiently shagged out that everything rattles? They looked great when they were new on the line. ... the Cravens were somehow different. I remember a discussion in the local model shop about how things were beginning to go downhill in the 1960's when they overpainted the cats whiskers with a rectangular yellow panel! ... Easily the best styled of the utility DMUs, only bettered by the Trans-Pennine sets. The 'slapped on' nature of the yellow panel applied without apparent thought for integration with the existing appearance marked the beginning of the end for exterior artistry on BR. Soon would come the drabness of 'fadesfast' Blue... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Mercifully I only travelled on them rarely, but they were the worst passenger experience of any stock I've ever travelled in - Pacers not excluded Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy C Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Mercifully I only travelled on them rarely, but they were the worst passenger experience of any stock I've ever travelled in - Pacers not excluded Steady on there Ravenser, at least they had character . Mind you if the Yanks had used them to transport prsioners to from Abu Grabh prison in Iraq i suspect they would be in the court of human rights shortly . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Vibration from the engines made everything rattle on a Cravens Unit I agree. When I rode in one in 1958, I'd never been on a DMU before and so there was nothing to compare the experience with except for non corridor suburban stock which we had previously. The ex-LMS Suburban coaches won hands down. I cabbed a Cravens with an inspector from Rochdale down to Oldham Mumps in 1960 but after that it was some years before I rode in a DMU again by which time they were around 14 yrs old and were on journeys for which they had not been designed. So for aching knees I hand the cup not to a Cravens, but to the BRCW 104's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark54 Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Steady on there Ravenser, at least they had character . Mind you if the Yanks had used them to transport prsioners to from Abu Grabh prison in Iraq i suspect they would be in the court of human rights shortly . The secret of a rattle free journey was to make sure you always travelled in the trailer car, preferably in the down-graded 1st class section if it was out of Kings Cross. From the Mallaband/Bowles Coaching Stock booklet, allocations of sets as at 31/12/1971 were as follows: Batch 1: 7 Norwich 8 Finsbury Park 16 Hull Botanic Gdns 5 Bletchley Batch 2: 19 Accrington 8 + 1DBMS Newton Heath (several withdrawals amongst these) Batch 3: 5 Norwich 35 Finsbury Park 7 Lincoln + 1DTCL Hull Botanic Gdns Batch 4: 2 Finsbury Park 20 + 1DMBS Hamilton Batch 5: 1DMBS Norwich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railroadbill Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 Looking forward to my green 105 with speed whiskers - hope it's as good as the 108. The interior lights on that one made me run it with the loft lights out I agree with Mark54 that the best place to travel on the original was in the trailer car particularly when the first class compartment was later downgraded. In the late 60s early 70s (I think) I remember one set out of Kings X having a replacement 101 trailer car (which really was better to travel in!) Also at that time there were units in both green and blue running together. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wollastonblue Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I've seen photo's of these in Scotland. How far north did they reach? Toying with either this one or a 101 for my layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 On the ScR, they were seen largely around the Central Belt, working out of Hamilton depot for the most part but they could occasionally turn up at Corkerhill or Haymarket too. I think some arrived about 1966 from the North Eastern. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Scottish Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I've seen photo's of these in Scotland. How far north did they reach? Toying with either this one or a 101 for my layout Thinks there's a picture of one in a Bradford Barton book at Callendar on the 6 lochs railtour , before the Callendar and Oban closed down - obviously! I'm not sure if they were in Scotland for long. Certainly around Glasgow they disappeared for a while , only to come back in the early 80s., I think because a fire at Ayr DMU depot had destroyed some of the native dmus. I remember being in one of them, it was certainly very down at heel and the vibration something awfull! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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