Photography - Security Hassles?

[trisonic]

So if we can stop the stereotype comments and stick to the facts I am sure everyone will benefit all the more.

 

Thank you. We're looking for solutions not repetitive moans.

 

Best, Pete.

 

 

 

 

[Glorious NSE]

It is on record as the underground station with the greatest number of platforms.

 

Well, it is a station on the London Underground network...but since only two platforms are served by the Underground that seems like a strange thing to claim - apply the same logic to somewhere like Waterloo and that has many, many more! TfL's website reckons:

 

Stations with the most platforms: Baker Street - 10. Moorgate has 10 platforms but only six are used by LU (two are used by First Capital Connect and two were formerly used by Thameslink services)

 

Going back to Barking, NR still reckons it's managed by c2c and not TfL? http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/bkg/details.html

[The Stationmaster]

I think the issue divides into a number of areas, viz:-

 

1. There are some railway staff - who normally seem to be comparatively recent recruits (whatever their apparent grade) who genuinely like to throw their weight around and behave like some sort of petty jobsworth for reasons which are hard to define (I had an instance of this with a supervisor at Southampton Central - he not only had an extremely limited understanding of railway infrastructure but clearly didn't recognise the sort of things which proved my identity, similarly a most peculiar female at reading who started moving all sorts of things on platforms as I wandered up & down a platform taking a few pics while waiting for my connecting train). In their case it might be a personality thing and lack of training also shows through.

 

2. There is a second group of railway staff, usually far from offensive and normally polite, who don't understand their own employer's rules on the subject but don't mind finding out.

 

3. There is a third group of staff, usually longer served in the industry, who don't mind in the least and can often be very helpful with such comments as 'you missed the so & so XXX two hours ago but it might be back' and who often enjoy a friendly chat if they have time and are also invariably positive if you seek their ok before taking pics or whatever.

 

4. There are the 'security people' who I have never seen in action with photographers etc but if their occasional ticket examination skills (which I have come across on several occasions) are any guide are desperately lacking in the relevant training and job skills.

 

My biggest bone of contention with many of these various folk is that they often seem to be poorly trained and/or have very limited knowledge of the industry or why people should have an interest in various facets of it - for example if you take a photo of a signal you can be automatically regarded by some as only having terrorist intentions because why else would someone take a photo of a signal? This lack of a more general 'railway awareness' can, from what I have come across, be as much of a problem as anything else and of course it can lead to the situation where someone in a degree of authority becomes nasty or officious in order to disguise their own ignorance - a common human failing and not just on the railway of course. And in the meanwhile they completely miss that happy group of chaps seemingly having a day out together and taking umpteen photos of each other against a wide variety of backgrounds around the station. People who really are reconnoitering a target are hardly going to make themselves conspicuous and indeed if they have more than an ounce of sense and ability won't need to look around too much anyway.

[Jon_Eng]

I'm surprised that, due to the availability of cameras that are very small and yet produce a very good image, that there is a war on people with larger-sized cameras (although they do have many more innocuous uses). In fact, the reason I know about these is that I thought about getting one for my cycle helmet.

 

Any want-to-be terrorist with half a working brain would obviously use something discrete. So why pick on the guy with a SLR?

[Trevellan]

As in many areas of life, good communication can make a big difference. I got some funny looks last year while shooting pictures of 1967 stock on the Victoria Line, but I engaged the staff in polite conversation. Mind you, how do you explain to a young immigrant worker that you grew up with the trains and travelled on them the first week the line was open? They don't have the same reference points, which is where the good communication comes in. As others have said, it is possible to have some interesting and enjoyable conversations with staff in the right circumstances. Last September at Barking was a good example. I spent a pleasant five minutes chatting to a driver taking over a District Line train about the current D stock, the old R stock and the imminent S stock.

[stewartingram]

Some people have mentioned Barking. I would like to point out that Barking is not a C2C station, it comes within the remit of Transport for London. TfL policy is quite clear, you can snap away to your hearts content from any of their platforms normally accessible to the public but flash is strictly forbidden. The ban on flash is understandable but can cause problems when taking photographs on the underground. Another problem can be if you use an 'Oyster' card your journeys are 'timed' and so if you linger too long it might turn out costly.

 

Without getting too technical about this - my personal experience with digital cameras is that flash is unneccessary even underground. In pre-digital (ie film) days, flash was necessary in low light, but was suitable only for "portrait" type shots of people, say up to a distance of 6 feet or so. Beyond that it is not effective anyway. Go digital, factor in the flash distance, and it proves the point.

I actually work on the Underground; last night I was at Waterloo, in the non-public areas. Down there, in the modern Jubilee extension, it is not dark, but nowhere near as well lit as the public areas. I was taking pics of cable joints, probably 10 feet up and above the light units. The pictures came out brighter and clearer than I could actually see the items with the naked eye. And this was a phone camera, no flash. In fact I often do this, then zoom in on the photo, to read labels which are too dark to read with the eye.

[stewartingram]

Well, it is a station on the London Underground network...but since only two platforms are served by the Underground that seems like a strange thing to claim - apply the same logic to somewhere like Waterloo and that has many, many more! TfL's website reckons:

 

 

 

Going back to Barking, NR still reckons it's managed by c2c and not TfL? http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/bkg/details.html

 

Barking is not managed by Tfl.

[trisonic]

Going back to my post #7 - I emailed the NS Corp., Director of Public Relations, explained who I was, why I wanted to take photos, where they would likely be posted (here) told him I had no intention of trespassing - I didn't grovel.......

His reply which I quoted from and included three phone numbers to get hold of him I will print out and simply carry with me when I go. I'm intending to do the same thing with CSX when I get around to it.......

 

Best, Pete.

[stewartingram]

Further to my request in an earlier post, for links to pages with guidance on them, I've compiled the following list so far.

 

If I find any more I'll add them to it.

 

Stewartphotography at stations.doc

[trisonic]

Great stuff, Stewart.

Find where the truth really lies before trying to change anything! Otherwise we go off at half-cock......

 

Best, Pete.

[br2975]

Unfortunately, because of my years of employment, my ability to suffer fools gladly was worn down.

.

Now that I'm of an age where I can take advantage of Arriva Trains Wales £15 scheme I find that on occasions I turn into a veritable 'Victor Meldrew' when confronted by poorly educated persons charged with the maintenance of security and/or law and order.

.

Picture the unfortunate BTP PCSO on 'The Lawn' who challenged my son (and I) for snapping Brunel's roof and transept, not for failing to abide by the Network rail guidelines (of which he was ignorant), but because we posed a security threat, a conclusion he arrived at without engaging us in conversation . . . . .

.

As we were returning from a day at Wandsworth Road, I pointed toward a well known newsagents shop, and pointed out "I bought this book from that shop" and produced the then current 'Freightmaster' which I then opened to show him the times and routes of DRS 'spent fuel' trains, and Didcot based MOD trains.

.

It was at this point he gave up and walked away - to the great amusement of two BTP doghandlers who had been taking it all in !

.

You may disagree with my stance, but I enjoy it . . . . . you could say it's my revenge on authority, but I couldn't possibly comment..

 

Brian R

[stewartingram]

Further to my request in an earlier post, for links to pages with guidance on them, I've compiled the following list so far.

 

If I find any more I'll add them to it.

 

Stewartphotography at stations.doc

 

I should add - print these out and carry them with you. The page on your legal rights, apparently well researched by professionals, is certainly worth reading!

 

My experience is that attitude carries a lot of weight too. Be sensible, courteous, non confrontive but politely talk facts (as backed up by these documents) & you get far!

Stewart

[Glorious NSE]

Barking is not managed by Tfl.

 

Thanks for the confirmation, I was pretty sure it had been c2c when I last visited hence my surprise to hear someone say otherwise...

 

Find where the truth really lies before trying to change anything! Otherwise we go off at half-cock......

 

From a UK perspective i'm not sure what needs to change - legally speaking anyway.

 

We already have a situation where mostly there is no problem legally/officially - albeit sometimes you have the slight inconvenience of being asked to signing in, and some operators are hotter on that than others. There should be zero problem if you are in a real public place, like on a footpath or street.

 

The "further work" to my mind is education:

 

1. For the likes of any uninformed staff (security guard or regular) to know that unless "we" are causing a specific problem we are allowed to pursue our hobby.

 

2. For the occasional moronic member of the public that insists it's illegal to take photo's in public at all because of the (take your pick) invasion of privacy / risk of terrorism / child protection policy / data protection act.

[Colin_McLeod]

Any tips for taking pictures of the Lybian Railways?

[Natalie]

You might think differently if you were a 19 year old girl on your own.

 

Absolutely James. Groups of males- especially younger ones- whether they are aware of it or not can look quite intimidating- especially if being loud. I'm not scared easily having worked in A&E and a male prison but make the location isolated or dark and it can change your whole perception of a situation.

[PhilJ W]

Any tips for taking pictures of the Lybian Railways?

Use Google Earth? Do they have any railways?

[The Stationmaster]

Use Google Earth? Do they have any railways?

 

You'd need a fairly very early version to see the railways in Libya - apart from possibly a bit near the Egyptian border the rest went about 40 years ago.

[Shamouti Ben Yafo]

M'learned colleague #5 has already suggested a return to the subject, can we avoid wandering into the Welsh Valleys on an unrelated subject please.

 

We certainly can - if that be the case. My point:

1. Other transport enthusiasts are also reporting problems

2. These reports were localised as reported

3. Security in this context was provided by members of said community - and I still count myself one of them, though my own responses would be more observant and measured - i.e. I would at least be looking in the direction of the lens.

 

In this day and age responsibility is often devolved onto local people - even before the big society we had community watch. You don't need uniforms to be concerned about security - nor to come to hasty and incorrect conclusions. Which is relevant to this thread. And your use of 'M'learned' in this context has rather crossed the line between humour and sarcasm; conduct unbecoming a moderator, IMHO.

[Mod3]

We certainly can - if that be the case. My point:

1. Other transport enthusiasts are also reporting problems

2. These reports were localised as reported

3. Security in this context was provided by members of said community - and I still count myself one of them, though my own responses would be more observant and measured - i.e. I would at least be looking in the direction of the lens.

 

In this day and age responsibility is often devolved onto local people - even before the big society we had community watch. You don't need uniforms to be concerned about security - nor to come to hasty and incorrect conclusions. Which is relevant to this thread. And your use of 'M'learned' in this context has rather crossed the line between humour and sarcasm; conduct unbecoming a moderator, IMHO.

 

If you read the OP you will find the Welsh valleys were not asked about, nor was information sought regarding non railway activities. M'learned colleague had already warned about thread wander but you still persist, maybe he had the invisible ink that members often bemoan. In future if you have any comments to make please do so via PM, criticising a moderator is not something we encourage in the public areas, we are more than happy to discuss things via PM of course. Due to your persistance in continuing down an irrelevant route this thread will now be locked.