trisonic Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 In "conversation" with Dr. Gerbil - Fritters today we touched on the subject of being hassled by Police or other security agencies just by taking photographs of trackwork, trackwork details or lineside equipment and buildings. We noted that it is not (usually) the shortlines but the Class 1 railroads/railways who cause issues that can amount to harassment.......I'm not refering to trespass, we will NOT TRESPASS, OK? How do you suggest we play it so we can all get along? Btw I'm talking Worldwide here not just the USA or UK.....please not just a litany of complaints but how they were solved or not......... Thanks, this could prove useful. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I could be very wrong here, but my impression is that it's a little more difficult your side of the water as "police" can mean anything from a railroad employee, to a local cop, to a federal official...and my impression is that keeping them all pointing in the right direction and with the right attitude and the right knowledge about deciding whether you are pursuing a legal activity or a threat just doesn't seem to be easy. The organisations higher up the security food chain appear to say things like "X or Y could be the sign of a terrorist plot" and there doesn't seem to be much care from their perspective about the effects caused by the locals trying to implement policy from that kind of statement. Over here, most incidents over here to do with train watching recently seem to be down to security guards or station staff throwing their weight around rather than the police. Station staff should all be briefed on the subject of trainspotters, security staff often aren't. We do have a set of guidelines from ATOC of what to do on stations, but it often varies from TOC to TOC so I tend to just get on with it (unless I know of a specific place where they do want you to follow them) and apologise politely and comply if challenged. At large NR managed stations they are hotter on that and have their own "guidelines" which tend to be treated as rules including signing in and getting a very basic safety briefing - at one of their stations I tend to comply if I want more than a quick grab shot on my way to/from a train. It's just easier and you usually end up with a pass to get through barriers and the like which is very useful. I have had a couple of friendly chats with the police over the past few years, keep it friendly, show em you're not a threat and they are generally fine. The police over here should now all be aware that taking photo's isn't a criminal offence - there have been a fair few high profile incidents but they have resulted in missives being sent down the ranks... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted March 17, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2011 Pete The problem is that in the eyes of the power hungry or ignorant it seems to have become almost a crime to take photos. In the UK the British Transport Police and Network Rail issue guidance (which I now tend to carry with me), but sadly some staff are ignorant of it. The best thing is to stay calm, explain what you are doing and ask them on what grounds they are asking you to move on or hassling you. You won't satisfy them all, but by staying calm and polite you will go a long way. Cheers, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted March 17, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2011 The best thing is to stay calm, explain what you are doing and ask them on what grounds they are asking you to move on or hassling you. You won't satisfy them all, but by staying calm and polite you will go a long way. Cheers, Mike And then complain ... quite a few local staff now have extra "training" thanks to me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 17, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2011 The UK magazine Amateur Photographer regularly devotes much of its online content to the latest developments in the war between legit snappers and the police. We live in weird times, and since 9/11 & 7/7 all sorts of common sense has been binned in the name of security. I don't doubt the police find it just as futile as the photogs, but they will get nil points if there is an atrocity traced to something not being followed up, so being on their guard is inevitable. As for the security staff on stations, this is one of the downsides of the present TOC deals - contracted staff can be dumped at a moment's notice, while full-time staff bring all sorts of employment legislation with them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm http://www.krages.co...aphersRight.pdf http://www.usatoday....hy-rights_x.htm http://content.photo...-photographers/ http://www.flickr.co...57604655395007/ http://www.andrewkantor.com/useful/Legal-Rights-of-Photographers.pdf Pages for the USA Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 Thanks, Jack! Great info as usual. I received an email today from from Rudy Husband, Director Public Relations, Norfolk Southern Corp. It said: "As long as you are taking pictures from public vantage points, you shouldn't run into any problems with any of our employees, including our police" I would hazard a guess that the word "shouldn't" covers his backside in the event of any overzealous employees. He did give me three phone numbers to get hold of him which is useful..... Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 17, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2011 I received an email today from from Rudy Husband, Director Public Relations, Norfolk Southern Corp. It said: "As long as you are taking pictures from public vantage points, you shouldn't run into any problems with any of our employees, including our police" I would hazard a guess that the word "shouldn't" covers his backside in the event of any overzealous employees. He did give me three phone numbers to get hold of him which is useful..... I think Mr Husband probably understands the expression "public relations" in his job title better than some. I'm impressed! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Thanks to a ruling from the European Court of Human Rights, or whatever its called, the ludicrous Section 44 of the Terrorism Act 2000 has been suspended. This was the pretext the Police and others used for hassling photographers. Unfortunately Section 43 still applies but that does at least require that the the Police have grounds for suspicion before acting. See http://photographernotaterrorist.org/2010/07/section-44-suspended/ for a bit more information. This is UK only of course... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamouti Ben Yafo Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I was once accosted by a local and two of his mates (who were clearly not interested, just happened to be there) while snapping around Gloucester Station (policy - don't get in the way; staff friendly to visitors, and look after passengers well. Good station all round.). I was asked if I was a spy; my reply was "Well... My middle name is Vladivarovitch." Result? Big Mouth stood looking silly as his mates sniggered and moved on. Humour can be an excellent tool. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 The officious mind is usually impressed by anything that looks official so carrying some kind of membership card may help especially if it has your photo on it. In the UK the Light Aircraft Association issue an aviation enthusiast's card to those of its members who fall into that category. The member simply presents it at the airfield they want to visit (we're not talking about high security commercial airfields) and because it includes a code of conduct and they're identified as a bona fide enthusiast they'll generally be given good access even to airside areas. Maybe the NMRA could offer something similar to its members. The other approach that works in all sorts of situations is to simply ring them in advance and say that you intend to do some photography from public areas. The person you speak to may say that they can't give you permission but then just say that you'll sort it out when you arrive and when you do the fact that they already "know all about you" seems to sort of make it legit in their minds. Also if you get challenged by one their goons you can explain completely honestly that you're the photographer who spoke to the office earlier on and that often satisfies them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Trevellan Posted March 18, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 18, 2011 I've said this before but it's worth repeating. I have carried a resource pack alongside my camera gear since late 2007. It contains a variety of publicly available guidance designed to deter anyone who might challenge me. Fortunately, British Transport Police are among the more sensible agencies and I have snapped away on the London Overground with officers merely observing me, rather than interfering. My advice is to be polite, but firm if challenged. I have given several copies of the NR guidalines out to station staff as a result and have been allowed to continue. The last such occasion was Paddington last year, where a driver from FGW told a member of platform staff to challenge me because he didn't want his picture taken! What a muppet... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted March 18, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 18, 2011 I can't comment on the US situation but can concur with experiences given by UK members. There has been a fairly significant level of Police "interest" in our hobby arising more or less directly from the recent upturn in major terrorist strikes. Most officers do now seem better informed and better prepared to allow you to continue your activity so long as they see no apparent threat nor offence. I have had quite amiable discussions with numerous officers of the Metropolitan Police in recent years usually starting out with a very pleasant greeting. By contrast this message has not filtered through to contracted security staff who do seem more interested in being bolshy than taking a civil approach. Not all fall into that category but from my experience many do. In fairness they may not have been fully briefed and might be adopting the misinformation that railway photography is some kind of crime as their reason to approach you. Many station staff seem wary but few appear to have time or the inclination to interfere with the activities of railway enthusiasts so long as they are not a danger nor a nuisance. The only one I had any issue with was a c2c employee at Limehouse who refused to accept any of the documents I carried as applying to "his" station and demanded that I stop "being a terrorist photographer". I merely moved to the DLR platforms out of his jurisdiction and continued my photography from there. An email was sent to c2c notifying them of the incident but I never had a reply. I can accept that this might have become a "He said - she said" scenario if it had progressed at all. In Australia there are similar reports of photographers being harassed. Again it seems to be poorly-informed security and station staff rather than the Police themselves and is generally uncommon. Many locations are unstaffed anyway and the only "interference" might be a friendly toot by a driver as you acknowledge them. Melbourne suburban operator MTM has a permit system but it appears to have no basis in law and is widely disregarded. In most places the easiest way to get your photos without hassle is to carry a daily ticket for the city concerned; if you do get asked to move then hop on the next train and perhaps return a little later. It pays to remain civil. By all means ask under what authority or Law you are being asked to desist or move along. And remember you have the option to ask for Police attendance if it is not they who are stopping you in the first place. Be wary of upping the ante but I have heard of cases where a call to the local Police has been all it took for an officious security guard to find something else to do. As well no-one can demand that you delete images or surrender your gear to them. You would need to be under Police arrest before they can review (but not delete) your images though you may show them voluntarily of course. Above all remember there is in many countries no prohibition on railway photography except where the subject matter is otherwise restrained in Law such as being a military or penal establishment. But it's worth checking first before you snap away somewhere you are not familiar with - in some parts of the World there most certainly are restrictions and even prohibitions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Trevellan Posted March 18, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 18, 2011 The point about security guards is well made. They will often intervene when it is not necessary to do so. This may be due to instructions from managers, or simply because they feel the need to justify their presence. This is also one of the principal sources of criticism about PCSOs in the UK. I would also endorse the comments about deleting images. There are currently no powers in British law that allow Police officers of any rank to order the destruction of photographic images, however they are recorded, nor can they do so themselves. It requires a Court Order. Officers from several forces have made serious errors of judgement in the past and several should have faced criminal charges. However, things do seem to have been getting better of late, but it’s as well to be prepared. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 The only one I had any issue with was a c2c employee at Limehouse It's noticeable that c2c do seem to have a much worse rep than any other TOC for this kind of thing. Barking in particular seems to be a location that brings out the reactions of a jerky knee variety... demanded that I stop "being a terrorist photographer" Why - didn't he want his terrorists photographed? It pays to remain civil. By all means ask under what authority or Law you are being asked to desist or move along. Here is where I think your ground is a little shaky if you are on a station (or other private property*) and not public land if you are challenged and requested to leave - station staff do have the right to ask you to leave if it comes to that. You do not have a right to be there - that they can ask you to leave is enshrined in the conditions of carriage and is also in the rail enthusiasts guidelines. So far as I can tell in that scenario if the person challenging you does not accept what you say and insists you leave the premesis you don't really have many options, they can ask you to do that. To my mind your option then is to find another venue and as Beast says make comments on the matter to the TOC later. To my mind the trick is not getting to the point where the member of staff asks you to leave. Don't lark about. Don't get in the staff's way or their passengers. Be nice. Don't act up and upset the "normals"... Even if they come and talk to you, "not escalating" things I suspect will avoid problems in most cases, getting chucked off a station has (touch wood) *never* happenned to me yet. (*Which is where it gets "interesting" with the sale of public spaces to private companies as part of developments...) But it's worth checking first before you snap away somewhere you are not familiar with - in some parts of the World there most certainly are restrictions and even prohibitions. There was an interesting article on Egyptian railways in REx the other month which gave some interesting tips for that location. I'm glad we don't have to deal with the issues they have! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted March 18, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 18, 2011 The definition of railways stations, in terms of whether or not they are "public land", is an area which has given rise to some argument in the context of freedom to photograph. The precise legal definition will vary by country and sometimes by state. However it is my understanding that in general they are deemed to be places to which the public has access when on or about legitimate business. That business is usually connected with travel with photography very much a secondary consideration. Whether or not you are permitted to remain there can depend upon your intentions. Holding a ticket (the usual means of gaining access to platforms) suggests an intent to travel but there is no obligation to do so by the first, nor any specific, train. You may choose to wait for the last train if it suits you. You may choose to take photographs while you wait. The arguments against this seem to centre on the photographer allegedly causing an obstruction or some sort of public nuisance. If you are clearly not going to get a quick and amicable resolution then it is best to diplomatically move on but that does not diminish the fact that there is no prohibition on photography as such. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 I'm not so sure Martyn. If you go back to the email to me from the nice guy at Norfolk Southern he was careful to write "public vantage point" - which I take to cover things like passenger platforms. It's important to me because the most popular spot to photograph both NS and CSX in New Jersey is from the New Jersey Transit platform at Bound Brook station on the Raritan Valley line. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Trevellan Posted March 18, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 18, 2011 Martyn, I think you were unlucky with Barking. I was there for nearly two hours last September and was left unmolested. Later, I moved onto the Gospel Oak line and stopped off at a couple of stations with no problems at all. From discussions with fellow photographers, there seems to have been a long overdue outbreak of common sense, at least on the Overground. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 The definition of railways stations, in terms of whether or not they are "public land", is an area which has given rise to some argument in the context of freedom to photograph. The precise legal definition will vary by country and sometimes by state. However it is my understanding that in general they are deemed to be places to which the public has access when on or about legitimate business. That business is usually connected with travel with photography very much a secondary consideration. In the UK they are legally regarded as private property, the folk operating the site are allowed to control who is there and who is not. The arguments against this seem to centre on the photographer allegedly causing an obstruction or some sort of public nuisance. If you are clearly not going to get a quick and amicable resolution then it is best to diplomatically move on but that does not diminish the fact that there is no prohibition on photography as such. You're correct there is no prohibition on photography as such - but the "guidelines" state: A key priority for Train Operators is to ensure the safety of their passengers and staff. You may very occasionally be asked by station staff to move to another part of the station or to leave the station altogether. Station staff should be happy to explain why this is necessary and if you are travelling on by train they may advise you to remain in the normal waiting areas with other passengers. If this occurs, please do so with goodwill as staff have many things to consider including the safety and security of all passengers and are authorised to use judgement in this regard. As well as that if you dig through the railway byelaws there are all sorts of clauses on loitering and the like... So - you have no right to be there on the station to take photo's. You are allowed to photograph from there because they let you. You are allowed to take photo's from public property (like the street outside - well unless the street happens to be part of a major shopping centre which has been sold to a developer and is now again private property and subject to security guards and restrictions on what you can and can't do there!) To my mind the priority as an enthusiast then is to minimise the chances of attracting their ire, and if it looks like an issue is going to happen trying to diffuse it not to ante-up, because the bottom line is they can just ask you to leave if they get fed up arguing with you, and if you refuse then they can just call the police as they can now argue you are now actually causing an obstruction by refusing to leave when asked. If the member of staff is being unreasonable then you *might* be able to get the member of staff to look like enough of an idiot enough in front of the police that they side with you, but I wouldn't rate the chances. Much better to not get to that point in the first place. I'm not so sure Martyn. If you go back to the email to me from the nice guy at Norfolk Southern he was careful to write "public vantage point" - which I take to cover things like passenger platforms. It's important to me because the most popular spot to photograph both NS and CSX in New Jersey is from the New Jersey Transit platform at Bound Brook station on the Raritan Valley line. This is where it's interesting - Amtrak certainly do regard their platforms as private property as they tried to enforce a no photography rule on them a couple of years back. (The silly thing is that in a lot of places in the part of the country I model the difference is between taking a photo off one bit of dirt next to another!) - and so did one of the other North East commuter ops as well IIRC? They backed down as they predictably ended up looking like intolerant idiots, but the fact that they gave it a go suggests that the law underlying things in the US is effectively the same. Martyn, I think you were unlucky with Barking. I was there for nearly two hours last September and was left unmolested. Later, I moved onto the Gospel Oak line and stopped off at a couple of stations with no problems at all. From discussions with fellow photographers, there seems to have been a long overdue outbreak of common sense, at least on the Overground. I've not personally had any issues there, i've only really done "grabs" between trains though - but I know folk that have and i've heard of others. It may be that some of these things relate to just one member of staff at a site with a chip on their shoulder and if you happen along when he's not there you'll be fine? There certainly used to be a chap at Bedford who yelled at me both times I visited that station as a teenager back in BR times when I never had the slightest issue anywhere else... LOROL is a good example of an organisation that gets it sorted. They had a number of run-ins with enthusiasts in their early days - their stations had mostly been unstaffed and so when they started most of the new recruits were from outside the industry and had no real clue what a trainspotter was and what they did. Give them a briefing to look out for "terrorist reconnaisance" and hey presto a recipe for trouble. LOROL have done a lot to brief their staff on what a trainspotter is, to make it clear that they are generally welcome, and nowadays you should not have a problem, in fact you might even end up having some nice chats between trains. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 Ha, Amtrak's a good one - do they actually own any platforms? Yes, I agree with them that if a "railroad" is to be attacked it would more likely be one of their trains but, of course, we know that is different. Perhaps the real security concerned companies should take the rail fans on their side. There's a lot more than trains to be spotted by someone alert.......... Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Might it be in everyone's interest, if links could be posted to the up-to-date online documents we are being urged to carry? I used to have them, but lost them some time ago. Being an employee of a contracter for the Underground does help of course....but would be nice to carry the latest info. Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg06003 Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 To follow up on Martyns point - on a recent occasion at my local station (a place I have been taking pics at for about 35 years) I have been told from the 'voice in the sky' that I had to report to the booking office and sign in. This was after taking 1 pic - the camera was out for about 45 seconds. On reporting to the booking office I was told that I was on private property (even the footbridge and platforms) and as such was required to report and sign in if I wanted to take pictures. I asked if all passengers who take camera phones (which is pretty much every phone) on to the platform were required to do the same, as I've see several instances of kids ,especially, taking pics on the platform and train. 'No' was the answer; 'why?' was my question. No answer just a repetition of the 'private property' argument. It's the inconsistency/smugness/superior attitude that's annoying/frustrating/unjust. Rant over...it's Friday after all. Bruce Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 If I was you (in The Kingdom of Fife) I would do some research to find out just which, if any, of this nameless guy's statements are actually correct - not many I suspect. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg06003 Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Pete, Scotrail do in fact publish guidelines here. I wasn't aware of these prior to the incident (my photography these days is sporadic) and, unsurprisingly, they weren't on display anywhere. At least they do proport to welcome photographers - even if you have to jump through hoops which are simply not presented to non-enthusiasts who are carrying out similar activities - which is the annoying bit!! Have a good weekend. Bruce Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I asked if all passengers who take camera phones (which is pretty much every phone) on to the platform were required to do the same, as I've see several instances of kids ,especially, taking pics on the platform and train. 'No' was the answer; I'm certainly not going to argue it's logical, or even useful, but it is so... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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