Photography - Security Hassles?

[trisonic]

Bruce, Interesting. That's why God gave us monopods............

You too, have a jar of heavy on me.

 

Best, Pete.

[Gwiwer]

Has anyone tried the approach of "I'm only taking holiday snaps" as there does seem to be some inconsistency applied between the great majority of the public and the "obvious" enthusiast who might have a more "professional-looking" camera than just a phone.

 

Certainly there should be one rule applied consistently to everyone but that does not appear to be the case.

[TheSignalEngineer]

The RAIB seem to welcome pictures from enthusiasts. In the recent report on the accident at Carrbridge in January 2010 they published a number of photographs by individuals, including some of the train earlier in its journey and one of the effects on lying snow of air turbulance caused by a train. Without the activities of enthusiasts this evidence would not have been available to the investigation. Perhaps some day one of us will capture a serious crime being committed at a station on camera. Will NR or the TOC be interested then?

[Shamouti Ben Yafo]

David Larkin wrote that he used to wear his BR uniform when wagon hunting, but still was excluded from some locations, so even BR staff have had problems in the past.

 

I can remember Securicor "I'm a private in a private army" goons slapping their palms with sticks and making pedestrians walk onto the road during bank collections in the 70s. Security staff, it seems to me, often come from those who would join the police if standards of intelligence did not apply. I count PCSOs in the same crop, I'm afraid - as witness the cretins I saw trying to convince a Big Issue salesman that he was, in fact, breaking the law by begging. And yes, he had a permit, and his only words to passers by were "Big Issue, sir/madam?". Two separate occaisions.

 

Another vexing issue is South Wales - photographers of inanimate objects in general (transport, architecture, etc) have a problem there, reportedly, with accusations of [edited by software - substitute Greek for 'Fondness for Children', in a pathological and criminal context] - though I can honestly say that this does (rightly) bring on the Furor Celtica, but sometimes matters are taken too far. I blame the gutter press.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I count PCSOs in the same crop, I'm afraid -

Similar to the time when someone complained about anti social behaviour and nuisance caused by a mass yob football game on a children's play area, only to find out that the local PCSO was playing in it.

[multiprinter]

. Security staff, it seems to me, often come from those who would join the police if standards of intelligence did not apply. I

 

Or who have been sacked by the police or armed forces.

[James]

On reporting to the booking office I was told that I was on private property (even the footbridge and platforms)

The railway isn't a public right of way - you don't have a right to be on a platform unless you're travelling. It is private property. It does annoy me when enthusiasts think they have a god given right to be on railway property.

 

In general there should be no problem with taking photos at stations but if you're asked just be polite - not saying you weren't Bruce.

 

A couple of years ago when the Royal Train ran into Hull one guy was on Hessle Road flyover (a public road) which crosss Hessle Road Junction - waiting for its return working I guess. VolkerRail's site office for the Docks Branch upgrade was located here with various materials stored there. Before going home, as I was the last one there I would go round and check all was in order and everything locked or secured. Walking back to the office itself I heard a train approach on the mainline so stopped and stood safely in the cess just where the branch leaves the mainline. A 158 appeared, blew as he saw me then went on his way. Once out of sight I heard a voice from above 'informing' me that I had "ruined" his photo. I actually think I was just as much a part of the scene as the 158 was really! Resisiting telling to him to f*** off I just told him people like him gave enthusiasts a bad name.

 

This attitude annoyed me enormously and if the minority have the same attitude on stations when asked what they're doing then it's no wonder the majority of concienscious enthusiasts get questioned.

 

David Larkin wrote that he used to wear his BR uniform when wagon hunting, but still was excluded from some locations, so even BR staff have had problems in the past.

Just remember that even if you're staff and you're somewhere you're not supposed to be or don't have authority to be there then you could still be charged with trespass.

[Rods_of_Revolution]

Based on expirence; What I'd suggest doing to avoid being hassled is put on a hoodie, spit, sware, drink cheap cider, urinate on the platform and kick a ball from platform 1 to platform 2 with your mates making sure you frequently retreive it from the track. Saw this happening at Chippenham over a period of 45mins, no station staff would approach them and they were allowed to board the train, no sign of the BTP either.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Based on expirence; What I'd suggest doing to avoid being hassled is put on a hoodie, spit, sware, drink cheap cider, urinate on the platform and kick a ball from platform 1 to platform 2 with your mates making sure you frequently retreive it from the track. Saw this happening at Chippenham over a period of 45mins, no station staff would approach them and they were allowed to board the train, no sign of the BTP either.

Just like my post #30 above.

[APOLLO]

Last March I read steam loco Oliver Cromwell (70013) was due northbound thru Wigan mid morning. I decided to recall old spotting days and drove to Taylors Lane road bridge, just south of Springs Branch shed. As I parked, 2 policemen were discussing a car tax matter to a local resident and watched me take up position on the bridge. Yup, they started to walk towards me omminously. "Anything special due mate ?" asked one, yes I said, A "Brit", in a couple of minutes if she is on time.

 

Well he went back to his police car and returned with a camera, just as steam was seen down towards Bamfurlong. We took our shots and the police departed as quick as they came.

 

Result - not the best of shots, site overgrown now - springs branch to right behind trees.

 

 

Brit15

[jbg06003]

The railway isn't a public right of way - you don't have a right to be on a platform unless you're travelling. It is private property. It does annoy me when enthusiasts think they have a god given right to be on railway property.

 

James,

 

With all respect, you've missed the point. I am fully aware of the fact that the railway is private property and even Scotland's 'Right to Roam' does not alter that. The 'point' was illustrated in my previous post...

 

My feeling is that regulation of this type is going to look very clumsy as technology improves - who would have thought 10 years ago that a simple mobile phone would be capable of what it can today - what will the next 5 years bring?? Thats before you consider whether a photo of a train (taken safely etc etc) is a different matter to a family snap shot on the platform. You only need to read through some of the 'donts' on the Scotrail form to realise that the family snap is likely to infringe more often - but how do you control that?

 

Perhaps there's the answer - I'll simply mock up a 1980's Motorola 'brick' enclosure for the camera with the monopod as the aerial

 

As for your brush with the photographer - I'm certainly with you on that one.

 

Bruce

[James]

With all respect, you've missed the point. I am fully aware of the fact that the railway is private property and even Scotland's 'Right to Roam' does not alter that. The 'point' was illustrated in my previous post...

Sorry if I have misread your post - at first it sounded like your issue was with it being regarded as private property. But they are enthusiasts who do hold such views! I've met a few

 

Thats before you consider whether a photo of a train (taken safely etc etc) is a different matter to a family snap shot on the platform. You only need to read through some of the 'donts' on the Scotrail form to realise that the family snap is likely to infringe more often - but how do you control that?

I think the reason why enthusiasts are questioned more often than 'normal' people is that it is more obvious as to what we're doing. A photo of a group of girls waiting for their train to on Doncaster station for the start of the album which will be on Facebook the next day is over with very quickly, whereas an enthusiast maybe around for a few hours!

 

Some don't help themselves - friends and colleagues of mine (the latter especially when I worked, nominally, out of Doncaster) said that some of the groups of "old guys" who would regularly hang around near the electric bays on Doncaster station, for example, could be quite off putting or even intimidating for female passengers. Though one girl did say she thought it was nice when you saw a guy there with his little boy!

 

As for your brush with the photographer - I'm certainly with you on that one.

Sadly he probably won't ever realise the damage he does with that attitude - the worst bit is that he'll cause problems in the long run for well behaved enthusiasts...

[PhilJ W]

Some people have mentioned Barking. I would like to point out that Barking is not a C2C station, it comes within the remit of Transport for London. TfL policy is quite clear, you can snap away to your hearts content from any of their platforms normally accessible to the public but flash is strictly forbidden. The ban on flash is understandable but can cause problems when taking photographs on the underground. Another problem can be if you use an 'Oyster' card your journeys are 'timed' and so if you linger too long it might turn out costly.

[ForestPines]

Some don't help themselves - friends and colleagues of mine (the latter especially when I worked, nominally, out of Doncaster) said that some of the groups of "old guys" who would regularly hang around near the electric bays on Doncaster station, for example, could be quite off putting or even intimidating for female passengers. Though one girl did say she thought it was nice when you saw a guy there with his little boy!

 

I used to change trains regularly at Doncaster, and noticed that frequently on the northern half of P4 the spotters far, far outnumbered the actual passengers. Some days, all of the benches at that end of the platform would be taken up with enthusiasts - moreover, enthusiasts who fell right into the stereotypical enthusiast looks bracket. I wouldn't see that people would call it intimidating, but I can see why it would be very very annoying, especially as you do get lots of passengers with heavy luggage, who might appreciate a sit down, on that platform.

[Glorious NSE]

Some people have mentioned Barking. I would like to point out that Barking is not a C2C station, it comes within the remit of Transport for London.

 

Is that a change since LOROL took over the Barking-Gospel Oak?

[br2975]

I count PCSOs in the same crop, I'm afraid - as witness the cretins I saw trying to convince a Big Issue salesman that he was, in fact, breaking the law by begging. And yes, he had a permit, and his only words to passers by were "Big Issue, sir/madam?". Two separate occaisions.

 

As one who has first hand knowledge of, and is totally opposed to the principal of the "Police" Community Support Officer - I'm not surpised by this total lack of knowledge as far as the law is concerned.............. altho' this is an aged statute, the last government introduced so many new items of legsilation during its tenure, most police officers became dizzy trying to interpret them, yet alone enforce them.

 

 

Another vexing issue is South Wales - photographers of inanimate objects in general (transport, architecture, etc) have a problem there, reportedly, with accusations of [edited by software - substitute Greek for 'Fondness for Children', in a pathological and criminal context] - though I can honestly say that this does (rightly) bring on the Furor Celtica, but sometimes matters are taken too far. I blame the gutter press.

 

Having lived all my life in South Wales, been an enthusiast since the end of steam in that area (1965ish) and with a more than passable knowledge of things to do with 'the law' gained thro' 30+ years experience; I'd like to respond to this comment - 'but I'm unable to decipher it your worships'

.

Brian R

[Mod5]

I think making generalised comments criticising groups of people like Security Officers and CSPO's does little to help anyone with this subject. It is a bit like saying all railway modellers wear anoraks, stink and carry rucksacks.

 

There are good and bad in all walks of life and this is a subject that has come up once or twice before. There are guidelines published for use but of course not all the people you come across will be aware of them. Likewise not all of us when out will be able to quote them or have a copy printed ready to give out. We do have the option of learning from threads like this though.

 

If challenged the best way to deal with it to stay calm and explain in a civil manner what you are doing. If you have a copy of the guidelines then of course it would make sense to use them to assist you in the situation. If you explain in a reasonable manner what you are doing then a reasonable person may well listen and leave you alone. Without doubt the unreasonable people out there (who thankfully are in the minority) will not listen and you may well feel the need to complain about them afterwards. Raising the ante yourself will not help you in this sort of circumstance and usually makes matters worse.

 

Those who are old enough to remember will recall the expression Barrack Room Lawyer. Well these days everyone knows their rights (or thinks they do) and all too often people's thoughts are turned to suing someone so they can get loads of money. Do we not as a group have a reputation that we care about and would prefer to foster that in order that this sort of problem occurs less?

 

So if we can stop the stereotype comments and stick to the facts I am sure everyone will benefit all the more.

[ben racey]

I like the ' terrorist photographer' line, nice one

 

Also worth bearing in mind that staff may also be incognito enthusiasts, often the case on the railway, and from flickr and a few user groups I'm a member of from the states, also the case over there as well.

 

Regards

 

Richard.

[James]

I wouldn't see that people would call it intimidating

You might think differently if you were a 19 year old girl on your own.

[coachmann]

I've photographed trains for many years. It's about looking the part and going about the job with dignity, and to me it was a job when paying taxes on income. Odd behavious plus single-minded arrogance plainly hacks people off. Thats not a generalisation, it's all too familiar when special trains are about.

 

I used to include railwaymen in the photos and give them 10 X 8 prints later. Of course it was easier when working a regular patch as I did from Chester to Holyhead. Today some things are different, it's the way of the world, and I just stay away from contentious areas with known 'difficult' people.

 

 

[PhilJ W]

Is that a change since LOROL took over the Barking-Gospel Oak?

It is on record as the underground station with the greatest number of platforms.

[Shamouti Ben Yafo]

As one who has first hand knowledge of, and is totally opposed to the principal of the "Police" Community Support Officer - I'm not surpised by this total lack of knowledge as far as the law is concerned.............. altho' this is an aged statute, the last government introduced so many new items of legsilation during its tenure, most police officers became dizzy trying to interpret them, yet alone enforce them.

 

Yup. Now imagine how nurses and teachers feel!

 

 

 

 

Having lived all my life in South Wales, been an enthusiast since the end of steam in that area (1965ish) and with a more than passable knowledge of things to do with 'the law' gained thro' 30+ years experience; I'd like to respond to this comment - 'but I'm unable to decipher it your worships'

.

Brian R

 

I wish I still were.

 

Let me clarify for m'learned friend (I stil prefer 'esteemed comrade'): I was referring to those who find delight in pictures of young, young people (though I have the same feelings about 40+ year old men looking at unclad teenagers in tabloids) and the immense rage some of us get into should we suspect this - it may be stronger in the valleys, indeed, during one tabloid witch hunt it resulted in a paediatrician, mistakenly named, being driven from her home. Incidents have been reported in some articles and letters in the road transport press where photographers have felt obliged to show their snaps to angry locals. Mind you, someone else reported recently (TES?) that he was accosted as a 'strange male' outside a school while standing and conversing with a female teacher; worst of all, he was their PGCE student...

Vigilance has gone from commendable to essential, but sometimes people can be too quick to come to the wrong conclusion.

[Mod3]

M'learned colleague #5 has already suggested a return to the subject, can we avoid wandering into the Welsh Valleys on an unrelated subject please.

[Shamouti Ben Yafo]

Stereotypes exist for a reason. There are always certain traits which lead to certain personality types being attracted to certain situations, and reacting to other set situations within them accordingly. This is the way of it. In fact, in the days of psychometric testing by employers (still not over) some of these were actively sought after.

 

The overall advice in this thread is easy enough to sift from the opinions and anecdotes:

 

abide by rules and observe guidelines

mind manners and build good relationships

be sensitive to the needs and feelings of others and radiate good humour.

 

There - a Celtic triad.

[br2975]

Yup. Now imagine how nurses and teachers feel!

 

I think we're on a different wavelength here - I question the role of PCSO's who are employed to (allegedly) provide reassurance to the public yet are blessed with little or no policing powers.. . . . I don't know what nurses and teachers have to do with it, other than qualifying for my admiration (and sympathy).

 

Whereas police officers can be instructed to work when told to, where they are told to, have limitations placed upon their private lives, who they associate with, where they can live, restrictions upon any second job and are fully accountable through a rigid misconduct procedure - the PCSO only works certain hours, and has to be asked to 'do this' or 'so that' - isn't subject to confrontation, violence, death, tragedy and the same misconduct procedure (quite) etc etc. . . . . . yet earns more than some of the officers that do all this.

 

When being critical of the role of the PCSO I do so from the experience of having one live under my roof before she was attested.

 

As for the level of training, many PCSO's are unaware of their powers (or lack of), and what compounds the problem is that many of their warranted police colleagues and bosses are unaware of the powers, pay and conditions of the PCSO's they supervise and/or manage. If they don't know, how can 'Joe Public' be expected to know what a PCSO can and can't do ?

 

 

I wish I still were.

 

Let me clarify for m'learned friend (I stil prefer 'esteemed comrade'): I was referring to those who find delight in pictures of young, young people (though I have the same feelings about 40+ year old men looking at unclad teenagers in tabloids) and the immense rage some of us get into should we suspect this - it may be stronger in the valleys, indeed, during one tabloid witch hunt it resulted in a paediatrician, mistakenly named, being driven from her home. Incidents have been reported in some articles and letters in the road transport press where photographers have felt obliged to show their snaps to angry locals. Mind you, someone else reported recently (TES?) that he was accosted as a 'strange male' outside a school while standing and conversing with a female teacher; worst of all, he was their PGCE student...

Vigilance has gone from commendable to essential, but sometimes people can be too quick to come to the wrong conclusion.

 

Sorry mate, I'm still lost here;

 

Or is the emphasis on the inability of certain South Walians to differentiate between a 'paediatrician' and a 'peedophile' ?

(Had to change spelling)

 

Brian R