gordon s Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) Won't bore you with any more track photographs, but had a surprise on two fronts over the last two days. It had been rumoured for some time, but it would appear C & L have an issue with their supply of copper clad strip and are currently looking for a new supplier. If you had asked me a few minutes ago, I would have said it was a commercial issue related to the increase in copper prices, but a couple of minutes research on Google has shown the exact opposite. A third surprise... Over the past year, copper peaked at around £1.97/lb but now stands at £1.75/lb. I accept there is a rise in prices right now, but still cheaper than a while back. Looking at the five year year trend is equally interesting. It peaked around £2.75/lb in 2011 but now runs at £1.75/lb. So perhaps it's manufacturing cost, who knows, but either way no supplier of 4mm x 1.06mm strip on the horizon as of today. It certainly isn't an increase in copper pricing. Many thanks to Martin who came to my rescue and reminded me that Marcway are able to offer 1.2mm strips, so that may be an alternative, but not having used them before the quality of their strips is an unknown to me. The cost of the two turnouts I have just built were also a surprise. I used 7 lengths of copper clad strips and 5 lengths of bullhead rail all at £1.00 per length, so that's £6.00 per turnout. For some reason I thought Peco large radius turnouts were around £15, but checking again this morning saw them listed at £10.50. It doesn't change my long term view that hand built turnouts look better, perform better and are cheaper to produce, but the difference in price is not as great as I thought. Hey ho, back to building more track…:-) Edited March 3, 2015 by gordon s 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted March 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 3, 2015 Marcway are able to offer 1.2mm strips, so that may be an alternative, but not having used them before the quality of their strips is an unknown to me. Hi Gordon, I think you have used them -- didn't you say that you originally started trackbuilding with SMP turnout kits? As a one-time supplier of copper-clad strip in the 1970s I can add a few thoughts. The copper price is largely irrelevant, as the foil is so thin. It is the laminate which costs money to make, especially expoxy/glassfibre (FR4 grade). I don't believe there ever was a supply of 1.06mm copper laminate -- it is not made to such a close tolerance (less than half a thou) because for electronics purposes it is not necessary. Like many electronics products, dimensioning is still in inches because the products were originally developed in the USA where metric is still a foreign language. The 3 traditional sizes for copper laminate were and probably still are, 1/32" , 3/64" , 1/16" thickness, with quite a wide tolerance on that. When I was buying SRBP sheets I could measure quite a big thickness difference across the corners. By far the commonest size is 1/16" for electronics use. That's 0.8mm , 1.2mm , 1.6mm in metric equivalents. My guess (I'm happy to be shot down) is that someone at C&L (Brian Lewis?) had a supply of nominally 3/64" sheet, measured it, found it to be actually 1.06mm, and listed it as that in the price list. I'm not sure where that leaves you. SMP copper-clad kits traditionally used 3/64" (1.2mm) strip, and when the Scaleway flexible was introduced (and the plastic turnout kits) it was made to match that copper-clad thickness. It's a long time ago now, but I doubt the tooling has changed. If SMP are still supplying 3/64" strip (1.2mm) I'm sure the intention is that it matches their Scaleway track. Their strip was traditionally sheared (guillotined) and probably still is. It would be interesting to know where they get their 3/64" sheet because it is the least common of the three sizes. When I was producing both sizes of strip (sawn SRBP) it was sometimes necessary to put 1/16" strip through the thicknesser to take it down to 3/64" on the back, because I couldn't get enough 3/64" sheets. regards, Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mightbe Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Gordon, you use C&L flex track correct? Perhaps I missed something or am mistaken, but isn't there 1.6 mm between the bottom of the rail and the bottom of the sleepers on C&L? I bought some supplies for making turnouts and was unsure what thickness to get. The language on the website led me to buy "1.06" mm, but for some reason the copperclad's height didn't quite match the flex. It was a bit too low if I recall. (I don't have it with me at the moment to verify). Perhaps you or Martin could shed light on this, because I'm now in the planning process for a layout and want to buy the height of copperclad that accounts for the height of the sleeper+chair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jintyman Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) From what I've purchased from C&L for track making, including C&L Flexi, I've gone for the 1.6mm copperclad and it matches the Flexi spot on. 1.06mm would be too low compared with the Flexi. HTH Jinty ;-) Edited March 3, 2015 by Jintyman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) All my flexible track is SMP, not C & L hence the need for the thinner PCB. Martin, I really should know better. My whole working life started in PCB layout and design and of course all our boards were 1/16" thick. In those days they were mainly single sided and the masters were laid out on plastic film with black adhesive tape and pads. Once we got into double sided boards, all the design was done with red and blue tape and pads. The cameras then had coloured filters to separate the two sides and produce the photographic artwork for etching. Good grief that takes me back……and many years before CAD design. We had to do the whole thing by hand. Edited March 3, 2015 by gordon s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Won't bore you with any more track photographs, but had a surprise on two fronts over the last two days. It had been rumoured for some time, but it would appear C & L have an issue with their supply of copper clad strip and are currently looking for a new supplier. If you had asked me a few minutes ago, I would have said it was a commercial issue related to the increase in copper prices, but a couple of minutes research on Google has shown the exact opposite. A third surprise... Screen Shot 2015-03-03 at 10.35.12.png Over the past year, copper peaked at around £1.97/lb but now stands at £1.75/lb. I accept there is a rise in prices right now, but still cheaper than a while back. Looking at the five year year trend is equally interesting. Screen Shot 2015-03-03 at 10.35.54.png It peaked around £2.75/lb in 2011 but now runs at £1.75/lb. So perhaps it's manufacturing cost, who knows, but either way no supplier of 4mm x 1.06mm strip on the horizon as of today. It certainly isn't an increase in copper pricing. Many thanks to Martin who came to my rescue and reminded me that Marcway are able to offer 1.2mm strips, so that may be an alternative, but not having used them before the quality of their strips is an unknown to me. The cost of the two turnouts I have just built were also a surprise. I used 7 lengths of copper clad strips and 5 lengths of bullhead rail all at £1.00 per length, so that's £6.00 per turnout. For some reason I thought Peco large radius turnouts were around £15, but checking again this morning saw them listed at £10.50. It doesn't change my long term view that hand built turnouts look better, perform better and are cheaper to produce, but the difference in price is not as great as I thought. Hey ho, back to building more track…:-) Gordon I think its more like the cost of cutting the copperclad sheets rather than the cost of materials, which have increased greatly over the past few years. Brian Lewis told me that he originally got the strip from a cutting machine engineer, who in setting up the machines cut the copperclad into appropriate lengths. As this was a by product the cost was quite keen. Since the early days things have had to move to a more business like arrangement. After speaking with Peter a few weeks back I think the old supplier has had a rethink and set a price that he could not refuse. So a change of company seems to be on the books. I am not querying your maths but you are not comparing like with like, the size of your turnouts is much larger than Peco's and their track is now being heavily discounted, For a normal turnout equal to Peco's I would expect a price nearer to £4 than £6, but cost has never been the prime mover. As for SMP strip is it still Paxoline rather than fibreglass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Won't bore you with any more track photographs.... Sorry Gordon, does not compute. 'Boring' and 'track photographs' are words that do not appear in the same sentence so far as your thread is concerned. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted March 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) As for SMP strip is it still Paxoline rather than fibreglass? Hi John, SMP/Marcway are listing both in 1.2mm, and only glassfibre in 1.6mm. See: http://www.marcway.net/list3.php?start=0&col=head&name=PCB It's not clear whether it is single or double-sided. Nor whether it is actually in stock. Any idea what strip is included in the current SMP kits? CCS4 00/EM 4mm Wide PCB Sleeper Strip 18 X 12" 1.2mm -- SRBP CCS4-GF 00/EM 4mm Wide PCB Glass Fibre Strip 18 X 12" 1.2mm -- glassfibre FG4 4mm Wide X 1.6mm 1/16" Thick 18' Pack For myself I would still go for traditional SRBP (paxolin), and single-sided. It worked fine years ago and would still do so. Glassfibre is only needed for outdoor use, it is much rougher on cutting tools and fingers. Martin. Edited March 4, 2015 by martin_wynne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock67B Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 All my flexible track is SMP, not C & L hence the need for the thinner PCB. Martin, I really should know better. My whole working life started in PCB layout and design and of course all our boards were 1/16" thick. In those days they were mainly single sided and the masters were laid out on plastic film with black adhesive tape and pads. Once we got into double sided boards, all the design was done with red and blue tape and pads. The cameras then had coloured filters to separate the two sides and produce the photographic artwork for etching. Good grief that takes me back……and many years before CAD design. We had to do the whole thing by hand. Morning Gordon,What a small world, between Uni and the commercial field, I worked for a short time for the now defunct 'Electrical Remote Control Co' in Harlow, Essex, as a junior design engineer. When they discovered my puzzle solving habit, I was given the task of mapping circuits on to boards using the tape method! I worked on one of the early double sided boards to accommodate the new Integrated Circuit produced by Plessey - this was to form but one component in the first commercially produced automatic electronic smoke alarm. Sat down at the drawing board with the circuit diagram, tape and lots of little circles for the connection pads. Took well over a week, then it went into our acid bath for etching and finally off to have current applied to check for shorts. Very primitive, and I think I've still got one of the ICs somewhere - over an inch long with I think only eight substantial 'legs'! Another trip down memory lane thanks to an RMweb contributor! Thank you very much, Kind regards, Jock. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 My oh My. ELREMCO. That's a name from the past. I started PCB layout at a contract company, BSP in Borehamwood and then went off to numerous companies such as Cambridge Instruments, Chubb Alarms and Cossor in Harlow. I also did a bit at STC Labs in Harlow laying out the first few integrated circuits for the telecomms industry. You're spot on Jock, it was puzzle solving in a way. Trying to connect numerous pads on a plastic film without crossing over. It wasn't until double sided boards and plated through holes came into play that the job became a bit easier. Eventually the lure of a company car and expenses got the better of me and I left PCB layout design behind and went into sales of PCB connectors which kept me going for another 30 years. These guys with their CAD systems would fall about laughing at our pencil traces….. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock67B Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Small world indeed Gordon, I've still got some copies of the drawings I did for the Elremco LV20 soldering iron which, complete with transformer, became standard issue for the then GPO. I also did design drawings for the wire wrapping tool which was used in exchanges until the advent of electronics. Another couple of drawings I kept are for machine tools to form up the cog and wheel gear sets for the gearboxes that drove the camshaft timers in fruit machines! I suspect that the CAD guys would be bemused by my final big job - freehand drawing gear tooth forms with a Rotring pen on film at 90 times full size so that the spark eroding tool could follow the profile, and cut the mould that would eventually fit into the plastic pressure moulding machine which produced the wheels and cogs. The size of the drawing was to minimise any irregularities in the line when shrunk to normal size. It took ages, plotting each different tooth shape at quarter degree intervals, then joining up the dots - I wouldn't want to try to do it these days! Kind regards, Jock. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post gordon s Posted March 5, 2015 Author Popular Post Share Posted March 5, 2015 Evening all…. Jackie is watching Supervets on TV and with no sport tonight, I managed to spend an hour or so with soldering iron in hand with Heart on the radio. I'm fast becoming one of the oldest swingers in town as I have enjoyed contemporary and pop music since the 60's. I also have a love of most forms of music and can still enjoy folk, country, heavy rock and classic, but my love of soul music goes back years and somehow track building with the radio or CD's on is so relaxing. Well despite the staggering number of followers that ET seems to have accumulated, no one spotted the deliberate mistake in this photo. In my haste to get track down and see something running in a complete circuit, I completely forgot about the two crossovers that should be part of the two upper loops. Track was laid, dummy electrical sleepers inserted and droppers all soldered in position. Standing back to appreciate the completion of that part of the layout there was suddenly a huge Doh! moment, so the loops will have to cut or lifted completely to accommodate the two crossovers. Tonight saw the completion of one of the curved turnouts to take the outer loop towards the middle. I'm still very much undecided what to do in the middle. It might be simple reversing loops….or an industrial area….or storage sidings….or a half decent shed facility…..or a small terminus (Bastille?). Right now it's way off there in the future, but I thought I'd make the access turnout anyway as the thought of watching some poor pooch undergoing surgery is not really my thing, hence my escape to the railway room. So here's the results of a few hours enjoyment. Just one more turnout to build and that's all the pointwork completed. I'm quite excited about seeing something run now. I fully accept it's not the most adventurous plan nor the most scenic one, but after the ups and down of the last few years it might just run and provide a stepping stone to all sorts of modifications or expansions in the future. I have been using Marcway cut sleepers for all my plain track extensions to turnouts. These are 3.3mm, single sided copper strip and I have no quality issues with them at all, other than one end is cut/sheared square and the other end looks like it might be a break off point and requires a quick rub with a sanding block to make a square end. It's no big deal and looking at their sleepers through different eyes has given me confidence that their 4mm x 1.2mm strip will do the job and allow me to continue building. I do hope however, that C & L are able to find another decent supplier as they do provide great service and I have been a customer of theirs for years. 24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Don't worry about listening to "Heart" on the radio Gordon. When I have my girls in the car, that's all they listen too. Makes a change from politics on Radio 4..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 45156 Posted March 6, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 6, 2015 Really looks as if you are making some real progess, Gordon, afer all the false starts that you've had Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Don’t tempt him!!! I have a couple of Gordon’s turnouts because I wanted to study them - they are as good as they look in the photos. He gives some hints on successful soldering of rail in his writings too which have certainly helped me (go in hot and fast with the minimum of solder - which helped my horrible efforts). Best, Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted March 6, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 6, 2015 'go in hot and fast' A mantra for so many things in life... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium polybear Posted March 6, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 6, 2015 Hi all, There's a separate thread here regarding copper clad also: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/96646-we-have-a-problem-houston%E2%80%A6particularly-if-you-build-copper-clad-track/&do=findComment&comment=1807527 I've just submitted post #22 which may interest some. HTH polybear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 (edited) 'go in hot and fast' A mantra for so many things in life... ' go in without' at my age.... Edited March 6, 2015 by coachmann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Evening Gordon, Thanks to you and Martin for the info on the Copper Clad, your point work is look as excellent as ever, and as for Music, I have Planet Rock on in my Shed and the Car. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 If you want general music from around the world try "Radio Paradise" . It's got no adverts as it's a listener supported radio. Usually have it on in the background. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altone Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 'go in hot and fast' A mantra for so many things in life... No no brother, cool and slow is the way to go, feel the soul, can you dig? ... oh wait you're talking about soldering ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 Just in case anyone is wondering what's happening with ET, the answer is very little right now. March has seen a lot of domestic activity with decorating and additional electrics and this morning I have hard landscaping guys arriving to dig out and lay a concrete base for my new koi pond filter. One of the things I have learned over the years is that digging is a young mans game and no matter how simple or small the job may look it's one of those jobs better left to those in their 20-30's without a history of back problems….. All of this…... Has been replaced by this…. Which has to fit in here... Hopefully in a few days time it will look a little tidier. April /May sees a few golfing trips and I have the filter to get up and running, so there may be no further real updates for a month or two. Thanks for looking in and your ongoing support on these modelling meanderings….:-) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Rowsley17D Posted March 24, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) Nice-looking hot tub, Gordon. Can just image you and the missus in there with a nice bottle of white on a summer's evening. Edited March 24, 2015 by Rowsley17D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) A slight cock up on my part. Look at the size of the new 'hot tub' and look at the size of the gate and the height of the wall. It took a few of us to lift it up and over…. Brought back memories of the Navy gun crew teams at the Royal Tournament when I was a kid…. There's a bit more to keeping fish than a big puddle and a plastic box full of brushes….. Edit: How did 'cock' get through the censor? Edited March 24, 2015 by gordon s 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_H Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Blame James May, he's always saying it ... "oh cock" seems to have replaced the old favourite of "oh heck"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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