RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted December 21, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 21, 2015 Hello Gordon, Will you be increasing sidings and loops with wider spacing's by the same amount.It was something I overlooked on my plan and I have still some adjustments to make in that area. trustytrev. Sidings and loops should have a 10 foot way, to allow for a man on the ground. In fiddle yards / storage yards I would advocate 3 or more inch centres to allow fingers to get easier access to stock and reduce the chances of knocking stock off on adjacent roads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 21, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) I've been continually reading the 00 track thread as anything regards 00 track is always of interest to me. Personally, it would be great if a new product came to market as I know many people have been chasing a better product for years. Long before I started building my own track, I opted for Tillig rather than than Peco and I still recall a conversation with their UK agent at Alexandra Palace some 10 years ago where I asked if Tillig would be interested in manufacturing a new 00 track product based on UK standards. Sadly it never came to anything as it was difficult to supply a starting spec of what was needed for the UK market. That fundamental question has always been the stumbling point as the number of options are many and if you asked 100 people, it's likely you will get 100 different answers. Hopefully the latest threads will go some way to polarising opinions and we may yet see a RTR track system based on UK standards although there are many financial hurdles to overcome, even if a spec is agreed. I suspect I am seen as one in the anti camp as I build my own track, but nothing could be further from the truth. What I would say is that years of senior management in manufacturing companies means I'm always looking at the return on investment. Those figures can often bring reality to the table and whilst I would always encourage free thinking, a return on any investment, even if it takes 3-5 years is paramount in any decision. Anyway I digress. One of the things I did pick up from the thread was a post by Mike (Stationmaster) specifically about parallel track centres. The default in Templot for 00-SF is 44.67mm, but I have had problems in the past with overhang on coaches and have always opted for 50mm. Laziness on my part means I have set everything at 50mm centres and the last thing I want is track that may have toy train appearance, so I am considering changing the whole plan to 44.67mm centres where possible. Compromise will always mean ET can never be an accurate representation as the lack of chairs on pointwork will always give the game away, but perhaps moving to 44.67mm centres will further disguise the pcb soldered construction of pointwork and improve the overall appearance of ET. Thankfully no track has been laid and the trackbed I have cut can still be used, albeit with the track moved inboard. ET terminus will need to be relaid, but that is a question of time, not money. Double track will also not be a problem, but I am concerned about the minimum radius of any track before 44.67mm becomes an issue. I can leave the curves at 50mm centres, but I'm sure there must be a minimum radius that can be calculated to demonstrate where 44.67mm is fine and at what point you are going to have a clash of carriage stock. I'd certainly be grateful for any assistance you can offer. Any idea what the minimum radius is for double track on 44.67mm centres to accommodate BR Mk 1's? Sorry Gordon - looks like I'm the latest reason for redesign of Eastwood Town (but I think it might well be a good one). There's a lot to be said in favour of modelling certain parts of the former GWR network (but I'm sure that won't lead to any other changes at Eastwood Town) Edited December 21, 2015 by The Stationmaster 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) One of the things I did pick up from the thread was a post by Mike (Stationmaster) specifically about parallel track centres. The default in Templot for 00-SF is 44.67mm, but I have had problems in the past with overhang on coaches and have always opted for 50mm. Laziness on my part means I have set everything at 50mm centres and the last thing I want is track that may have toy train appearance, so I am considering changing the whole plan to 44.67mm centres where possible. Compromise will always mean ET can never be an accurate representation as the lack of chairs on pointwork will always give the game away, but perhaps moving to 44.67mm centres will further disguise the pcb soldered construction of pointwork and improve the overall appearance of ET. Thankfully no track has been laid and the trackbed I have cut can still be used, albeit with the track moved inboard. ET terminus will need to be relaid, but that is a question of time, not money. Double track will also not be a problem, but I am concerned about the minimum radius of any track before 44.67mm becomes an issue. I can leave the curves at 50mm centres, but I'm sure there must be a minimum radius that can be calculated to demonstrate where 44.67mm is fine and at what point you are going to have a clash of carriage stock. I'd certainly be grateful for any assistance you can offer. Any idea what the minimum radius is for double track on 44.67mm centres to accommodate BR Mk 1's? Hi Gordon, I'm a great advocate of the 6 foot way in OO - chiefly because, with OO being narrow gauge anyway, the space between the tracks can look exaggerated and all too easily end up looking 'continental' (If that makes sense). 'Tis true that there are many examples where track spacings are greater (Mike has posted a pic of the most obvious example - ie Ex-GWR broad gauge lines) but I would go so far as to say that a typical stretch of UK double track mainline would be set out at the 6 foot spacing (ie which equates to 44.67mm centres in 4mm scale). Once the real railway builders had constructed their railway in such a manner, every viaduct, tunnel, cutting, embankment (etc) would constrain it to that dimension thereafter. In answer to your question, on a purely empirical basis, 5 foot radius and above is perfectly OK for a 6 foot spacing; 3 foot radius and below it definitely needs to be wider. Somewhere in between therefore lies the cut-off point. I would have thought that with the aid of Templot you could have set out your trackwork such that the spacing starts to increase below 5 foot radius and you adjust it so that you have a variable track spacing to match the instantaneous radius at any one point (ie to allow for transitions). Edited December 21, 2015 by LNER4479 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_H Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) Hi Guys I think I'm having a blond moment (no disrespect intended to any blonds out there) but the numbers are confusing me, specifically the 44.67mm. I understand that this includes the 6' spacing (24mm) but where does the other 20.67mm (5' 2") come from? Perhaps it's the 4'8½" gauge + rail head, but if that's true then the 44.67 would be fine for P4 but not 00 with the 16.5mm reduced gauge which would be is 2.33mm (7") narrower! Best regards Ian Edited December 21, 2015 by Ian_H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 The spacing is to allow 4mm scale stock to pass without colliding, the gauge is irrelevant as OO, EM and P4 are all 4mm scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_H Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 So are you saying that we have a 6' space in P4 and a 6'7" space in 00? I can see the sense of this, same width of rolling stock just running on different gauges ... just require clarification! Thanks Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandbridgejct Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) Hi Guys I think I'm having a blond moment (no disrespect intended to any blonds out there) but the numbers are confusing me, specifically the 44.67mm. I understand that this includes the 6' spacing (24mm) but where does the other 20.67mm (5' 2") come from? Perhaps it's the 4'8½" gauge + rail head, but if that's true then the 44.67 would be fine for P4 but not 00 with the 16.5mm reduced gauge which would be is 2.33mm (7") narrower! Best regards Ian Ah, I think I know the answer to this one: it's 44.67mm centres, so it's measured from the centre line of one track to the centre line of the other, so it's a separation envelope based on vehicle width, regardless of your track gauge (so long as your gauge is not more than 22.335mm!) (Edit to smack myself - so long as your gauge is not more than 44.67mm you should be ok.) Edited December 21, 2015 by islandbridgejct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_H Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Ah, I think I know the answer to this one: it's 44.67mm centres, so it's measured from the centre line of one track to the centre line of the other, so it's a separation envelope based on vehicle width, regardless of your track gauge (so long as your gauge is not more than 22.335mm!) (Edit to smack myself - so long as your gauge is not more than 44.67mm you should be ok.) "a separation envelope based on vehicle width" an excellent description! Thanks Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Hi Guys I think I'm having a blond moment (no disrespect intended to any blonds out there) but the numbers are confusing me, specifically the 44.67mm. I understand that this includes the 6' spacing (24mm) but where does the other 20.67mm (5' 2") come from? Perhaps it's the 4'8½" gauge + rail head, but if that's true then the 44.67 would be fine for P4 but not 00 with the 16.5mm reduced gauge which would be is 2.33mm (7") narrower! Best regards Ian Yes. Others have answered but, for absolute clarity, the prototype dimension is the summation of 4' 8.5" plus 2 x rail head width (2.75" each) plus 6'. That little lot tots up to 11' 2", hence 44.67mm at 4mm to the foot scale. Obviously, as OO track gauge is narrower, so the 'six foot' model dimension is proportionally larger (that was my point to Gordon about the gap being accentuated when modelling in OO as opposed to P4). I always prefer to start with the prototypical dimensions then scale down from those. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) Thanks for reminding me of this part of Templot, Martin. I've just spent half an hour playing around with it and it's a very useful tool. What has surprised me is that with my minimum radius of 914mm (3') there is still a possible clash between two dummy vehicles. Only just, but enough for me to consider increasing my 50mm fractionally where I have a curve of 914mm. The other part of the equation is how much of the track is actually hidden from view and whilst I'm more than happy to put in the hours to get the most realistic appearance, there seems little point spending time on track that won't be seen, other than to check there are no clearance issues. As always, it's better to spend time on these things up front than plough on regardless.... Made a fresh start this morning and must have had the wrong glasses on a couple of days ago. A 914mm (3') curve does provide sufficient clearance for a pair of Mk1's on 50mm centres. Once magnified, I can now see the overlap of two coaches is only into the clearance area provided and not the coaches themselves, so 50mm will be fine on all curves. That will save a fair bit of work before track laying starts. I thought it a bit strange as I have used 50mm centres in earlier versions and whilst it was tight, there was no clash at all. All down to operator/eyesight issues..... My thoughts are to look at the 44.67mm spacing in ET terminus and approaches are those will be the most obvious areas. When the time comes, I'll need to look at the best solution in terms of which line to move and away we go. Funnily enough I stumbled across some old ET terminus plans this morning. One was the original terminus and the other one based on Bastille. Both would have to be mirror imaged to work with the curve to the left rather than right, but then that would put the station buildings the wrong way round. In their previous location, they faced a back wall and as such that side of the building was never seen, so they were left blank and unfinished. That makes the plans non starters, but it was interesting to see some alternative plans again and when the time comes I'm sure they may provide solutions to the shed/goods area. The first family members have arrived for Christmas, so any work on ET will be severely limited until the New Year. Many thanks for all your input over the years. Best wishes for a Very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.... Edited December 22, 2015 by gordon s 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted December 22, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 22, 2015 Gordon I wish you and your family a very merry Christmas and a happy New Year and look forward to furher adventures in the ET saga after the festivities. SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrkirtley800 Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Going back to the distance between the adjacent lines, I found 45 mm centres OK on 3 foot radius curves in EM gauge. I use a couple of Midland 12 wheel diners to test for clearances, but all my curves have at least a bit of transition. My good wishes to you all and happy modelling in 2016. Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aardvark Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 I, too, would like to add my wishes to all Gordon's readers for this festive season, and express my thanks to Gordon for the entertainment contained herein! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock67B Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Morning Gordon, My Clan motto is 'Sero Sed Serio' - 'Late but in earnest' and so I'd like to wish you and all your family a splendid festive season from Joanna and I. Thanks for sharing so many ideas with us, I have learned a lot! Kind regards, Jock. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 And mine (on the maternal side) is “Keep Trust” - which you can take as you like! Most entertaining thread anywhere........ Best, Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 45156 Posted December 25, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 25, 2015 Christmas wishes to you and yours Gordon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted December 25, 2015 Author Share Posted December 25, 2015 Thanks guys, that's made my Christmas....:-) It's great to know there are people who gain something from me stumbling from one disaster to another.... I was skipping through some pics last night to show the kids and came across this one from the past. Hopefully it will run fairly soon with 30 vans behind it. Seems like years ago now... Gawd, just checked and it was June 2010. Where did the time go ......and still nothing to show for it.... Merry Christmas all.... 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trustytrev Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Hello, and still nothing to show for it.... You can hardly call it that Gordon. The pleasure and help you have given us all with Eastwood Town is priceless. And when you get something running it will be even more so. Best wishes. trustytrev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aardvark Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 It's great to know there are people who gain something from me stumbling from one disaster to another.... Gordon, your shared experiences have helped me overcome my fear of failure and deal with the inevitable disasters that will come when I climb down from the bench and take a swing at actually doing something myself. Like others, I have learnt much from your work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted December 27, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 27, 2015 ....and still nothing to show for it? I think you are possibly forgetting the tip manager's Rolls Royce..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium eldavo Posted December 27, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 27, 2015 Is it finished yet big G? You've had the whole of Christmas away from the golf course after all. Get those tools into action and wear off the effects of the Christmas pudding. :-) Cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted December 27, 2015 Author Share Posted December 27, 2015 Sat here watching the darts with a drip in my arm for my two weekly infusion, so nothing will be done for a while. Beat that for an excuse.....:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted December 27, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 27, 2015 Most people drink wine..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Rowsley17D Posted December 27, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 27, 2015 Sat here watching the darts with a drip in my arm for my two weekly infusion, so nothing will be done for a while. Beat that for an excuse.....:-) Would that be the finest malt or a decent Cognac? All the best for the New Year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted December 27, 2015 Author Share Posted December 27, 2015 I should be so lucky. Hypogammaglobulinemia. As an answer, it's right up there with Chinese Crested Powder Puff's.....You what?..... Had it since the 1980's, but an infusion every two weeks enables me to live a full and healthy life. A massive thank you to the NHS..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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