Eastwood Town - A tribute to Gordon's modelling.

[martin_wynne]

The key takeaway, is that large complex overarching detailed theoretical planning, is actually a hinderance to project completion

 

Unless of course, your hobby is large complex overarching detailed theoretical planning.

 

In a hobby you do what you enjoy. A nice boiled egg for lunch helps.

 

Martin.

[Rowsley17D]

Just had a thought, Gordon. Depending on how far away an IRDOT-1 can detect, you could just put one on its side across the end of your fan. A train pulls in and once it triggers the red diode, stop and reverse until it turns the diode turns green. As you can see most of the storage yard you will know which lines are occupied. Next train comes in to a different line, triggers the red, reverse until it goes green and so on. If I can get to my layout tomorrow I may experiment with a spare unit I have.

[gordon s]

I'm chuckling away here, because I've simplified ET down to just one circuit of double track plus a reversing loop and a few storage roads......which just happened to be suggested by others after I thought I had a simple plan.....

 

No names , no pack drill, but thanks guys just the same, as it all makes sense now.

 

The rest of ET is some way away, but experience has shown me you cannot ignore something in the future.  Whilst exact planning of future works is not needed at this stage, the minimum you have to do is pencil in where things will go otherwise you are either destined to failure or will end up pulling great chunks of layout to accommodate something you hadn't considered in the first place.  Been there and got the T shirt......and the shorts....and the trainers.....

 

One thing I have learned is that hours spent in planning really pay dividends in the long run.  I've dumped reams of A4 paper which is a fraction of the cost of 12mm ply.  In reality both processes go on at the same time as it's virtually impossible (for me anyway) to really understand multi level plans in three dimensions and it's not until you have some bits in place can you then see where the issues are.

 

Having got round the room with no obvious flaws, I've started building trackbeds proper this afternoon.  I've no real idea what prompted me to build trackbeds this way.  I can't recall if it was something I read or if it was just something I developed myself after reading various books on baseboards.  For those who are new to ET, I have a thing about baseboards being flat, level or in the same plane so that a train can pass along without looking as though it was on a roller coaster.  I know they did that in real life, but once scaled down to 1/76 even the smallest of bumps along a track bed can look huge if it were scaled up.

 

I've tried most types of construction and eventually settled on this one as it gives a lightweight, yet very strong structure and simplifies open top baseboard construction.  Most of my frames are 1200mm long and these trackbeds span 1200mm with no signs of sagging whatsoever, even if quite heavy weights are placed mid span.

 

The bed itself is 12mm ply and various blocks are screwed and glued to the trackbed to accept 6mm MDF side cheeks which I have cut down to 90mm deep.  I chose 90mm to provide some protection to my Tortoise point motors which are 82mm plus a bit of wiring.  The side cheeks also provide a great space in which to hide wiring and other bits and bobs that may be found under a baseboard.

 

One of these three boards I did this afternoon required a bit more fiddling as it crossed over a lower track and the side cheeks had to be cut away to allow clearance on the track below.

 

Once all of these are laid in a complete loop, I will start marking out the cork underlay, lay the track without pointwork and once wired get a train running round the loop whilst I take a break from carpentry and start building the two turnouts and the switched double junction that takes the line up to ET terminus.  All the fuss in various track threads have renewed my enthusiasm to get something running and to be able to show those who are interested just how good 00-SF can look and run.  

 

 

 

 

Edit.  In case you're wondering, all the holes in the frames are because I have recycled lengths of wood that had been used previously and not drill practice for Reg Prescott.  I thought I'd get away with it, as it is normally well out of view....

 

Least ways that's my excuse.....

Edited January 21, 2016 by gordon s

[gordon s]

Just had a thought, Gordon. Depending on how far away an IRDOT-1 can detect, you could just put one on its side across the end of your fan. A train pulls in and once it triggers the red diode, stop and reverse until it turns the diode turns green. As you can see most of the storage yard you will know which lines are occupied. Next train comes in to a different line, triggers the red, reverse until it goes green and so on. If I can get to my layout tomorrow I may experiment with a spare unit I have.

 

Unless I've misunderstood, the place I need to stop is different on every line, so it's not like a finish line as such.  Nice idea though....

 

Geoff, I will take a look at those links you have sent me, but first look makes me think they are more akin to block detection which is way off the horizon at this stage.  I just need a simple IR detector just to serve as a guide to stop at a certain point if the train is not passing straight through.

 

If ever I get that far, you will be the first person I talk to......

[Rowsley17D]

Unless I've misunderstood, the place I need to stop is different on every line, so it's not like a finish line as such.  Nice idea though....

 

 

Not misunderstood, Gordon. I admit you would lose a few inches of storage. With nine storage lines you could use three IRDOT-1s. One for the outer three, one for the middle three and one for the nearer three. You would just need some black paper to stop the IR beam detecting from the wrong tracks.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Rowsley17D

[martin_wynne]

Hi Gordon,

 

You can save £100 by arranging a bit of thin springy phosphor-bronze wire as a flange-back contact. Solder it to an insulated patch on the copper-clad, and bend it up to lie alongside the rail like a check rail, with a gap of about 1/32" (0.8mm). About 5mm along the rail is plenty. On the power ground-rail side. Then a few volts and a lamp bulb or led will light up or flicker as trains run through. (Doesn't work with plastic wheels).

 

Add string, sealing wax, paper clips, rubber bands and matchsticks to taste.

 

Martin.

[gordon s]

"Scuse my ignorance, but will that work with DCC, Martin?

[The Stationmaster]

Hi Gordon,

 

Just going back to your idea for train detection using the IRDOT-1 sensors, you mention that you have nine roads so would require nine sensors but since you plan on double stacking then presumably you will require more sensors and as you say they are quite expensive. Home made sensors would be cheaper, unfortunately a couple of weeks ago you threw a printer away that had the very sensors that could have been used ... too late now   but there are circuits to build that would do the very thing for you at a much better price and they are relatively simple in construction.

 

A short while ago I came across some YouTube videos made by Richard W of Everard Junction fame. One of Richards videos deals with Train Detection and Automatic Signalling using a Picaxe micochip. In his video tutorial Richard explains how to program the Picaxe using a software where the user simply designs the operating software using flow charts (if this happens do that else wait this length of time and the other) as opposed to programming languages such as 'C'. Richard explanation is very laid back and I think very very easy to follow, its almost Lego!

 

I know you're not ready for the system now but if there's nothing on the TV tonight, is there ever, and you have 50mins to spare have a look:

 

 

 

Ian

Regrettably, and as Spock might put it, the signal logic part isn't logical.  All proceed aspects have to be controlled by the signal(s) in advance otherwise they will not sequence correctly.  Sorry for the interruption Gordon.

Edited January 20, 2016 by The Stationmaster

[martin_wynne]

"Scuse my ignorance, but will that work with DCC, Martin?

 

Sure. Assuming you common one side of the DCC power, as I assume you would do (saves a lot of wire and connectors). Works even with clockwork.

 

(But works for a stationary train only if you happen to stop it with a wheel in contact.)

 

I will make a sketch circuit.

 

Martin.

[Junctionmad]

Thanks for that Ian.  Just stopped for a cup of tea, so I'll look at that tonight.  Just to make it clear though.  All the trains come in at one end only and it's only the last three feet that are truly hidden.  The remainder of the storage roads sit beneath ET terminus and there the clearance is over a foot, so visibility is not a problem.  I need to run trains in to stop at a pre determined place so that the loco is not fouling either the turnout or the adjacent track as the clearance reduces to go to the same turnout.

 

Once the train has stopped in the right place, the back of the train can easily be seen, so it's only the front stopping point that needs monitoring.

 

Ah, and the printer is still in the hall waiting to go to the tip.  Is it easy to spot the bits that could be useful?

The main failing of the Everard Junction signalling is the assumption that a train which has passed the signal exits the block ahead,  because it simply uses a timer to restore the signal through the various aspects to green.

 

In reality this is an illusion of signalling, easily defeated by stopping the train in the section ahead 

 

if I was to go to all that bother I would place sensors ahead to detect the passage of the train out of the section , in fact because signals are close together on a model railway, you can often use the next train detector as a feedback for the previous signal 

 

dave

[Junctionmad]

 

 

is that a green signal must stay green whilst the entire train passes it, so that a guard sees the clear signal,

I know this was true up till  a certain point in history , but is it still true today, or even recently ??

 

are there are guards to spot anything these days ?

 

 

dave

[gordon s]

'Scuse my ignorance squared.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by commoning one side of the dcc power. I have two wires typically red or brown and black in 1.5mm conduit cable. All of the rail droppers are connected to that bus. Is that what you mean by commoning?

Edited January 20, 2016 by gordon s

[martin_wynne]

'Scuse my ignorance squared.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by commoning one side of the dcc power. I have two wires typically red or brown and black in 1.5mm conduit cable. All of the rail droppers are connected to that bus. Is that what you mean by commoning?

 

Hi Gordon,

 

On any usual layout you have lots of secondary power circuits apart from the DCC or DC traction circuits. For example a power supply for the point motors, for signal solenoids, for lights in buildings, for uncoupler magnets, whatever.

 

Normally one side of all these circuits is commoned together. I assume you would do the same with the DCC power, say the brown wire, especially if it is a nice heavy size wire all round the layout. This then saves a lot of wire (and connectors on a portable layout) in all the other circuits. If you need section breaks in the DCC you make them in the red side, as for DC control circuits.

 

The only point to bear in mind with such an arrangement is that you need an independent transformer for such secondary circuits, you can't use the one which powers the DCC or DC traction.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Ian_H]

Ah, and the printer is still in the hall waiting to go to the tip.  Is it easy to spot the bits that could be useful?

 

Hi Gordon,

 

The part look something like this

 

 

There will be two or three maybe more. Generally they are in the paper path, used to detect the presence of paper and the position when it gets to the printing position, there maybe one for detecting paper exit/jam. Also could be used to check that covers are closed although usually they use micro switches for that. You may also want to recover some other parts, LEDs, the LCD display may come in handy later and also the motors, one of them will most definitely be a stepper motor that can also be controlled by a Picaxe for exact position, I'm thinking here for a turntable, think you mentioned a while back that you may want a different turntable to the present one that you have. Take note a Picaxe can also control servos for semaphore signals but if your going down that track and considering your space requirement, you may aswell use servos for the turnout and sell your turtles on Ebay, just saying;-)

Edited January 21, 2016 by Ian_H

[gordon s]

All of my secondary power circuits come from a pair of 12v power supplies wired to give 12v/0v/12v.  These are used to run all my Tortoise motors using just one wire to activate the switching.  That 12v/0v/12v supply would also run lighting etc if needed.

 

There are no section breaks in DCC unless you want Power Districts.  I will split ET into three power districts.  The lower level storage, the continuous loops and ET terminus itself.  Both rails are broken to give completely independent power districts and each district has it's own bus wiring (from memory).

 

Edit: Tortoise wiring diagram

 

Edited January 20, 2016 by gordon s

[Ian_H]

Regrettably, and as Spock might put it, the signal logic part isn't logical.  All proceed aspects have to be controlled by the signal(s) in advance otherwise they will not sequence correctly.  Sorry for the interruption Gordon.

Hi Mike,

 

I wasn't advocating the use for signalling (of which I know almost nothing) but more for the detection of trains in the storage/fiddle yard, although I do think Richard's circuit is pretty goodand if not quite correct could be improved upon;-)

[Tony_S]

I have a couple of hidden storage tracks. I thought about various detection devices. I have decided to angle a mirror over the tracks.

[PhilH]

On my fiddle yard my ears are my detection devices.

 

 

 

Bang......

[martin_wynne]

All of my secondary power circuits come from a pair of 12v power supplies wired to give 12v/0v/12v.  These are used to run all my Tortoise motors using just one wire to activate the switching.  That 12v/0v/12v supply would also run lighting etc if needed.

 

There are no section breaks in DCC unless you want Power Districts.  I will split ET into three power districts.  The lower level storage, the continuous loops and ET terminus itself.  Both rails are broken to give completely independent power districts and each district has it's own bus wiring (from memory).

 

Screen Shot 2016-01-20 at 18.16.31.png

 

Hi Gordon,

 

Fine. Connect the bus wire in your Totoise diagram to the brown wire in the DCC power for the storage roads power district. Then you can use one of the 12v lines through a 12v lamp to the springy bit of wire I mentioned.

 

There is no need to break both rails, and I wouldn't. One rail is plenty enough to isolate a section. Then the brown side of the DCC all round the layout can act as the bus wire for the Tortoise motors, and you don't need a separate wire round the layout for that. One less wire is one less to go wrong. And much easier for testing.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[gordon s]

I'm sure you're right, Martin, but my simple head say the Tortoise motors are running on 12v/0v/12v DC and in my head DCC is AC.  I know it isn't, but separating the two completely helps me keep my head straight when trying to wire something up or fault finding.  Likewise with Power Districts.  I'd rather separate the bus wiring completely, then at least I have a fighting chance.

 

It took me 20 years or so to understand what 0v was and I grew up laying out complex printed circuit boards in red/blue tape on plastic film......

 

Combining the two would be a right  muddle for me.

Edited January 20, 2016 by gordon s

[Geoff Cook]

Hi Gordon,

 

Fine. Connect the bus wire in your Totoise diagram to the brown wire in the DCC power for the storage roads power district. Then you can use one of the 12v lines through a 12v lamp to the springy bit of wire I mentioned.

 

There is no need to break both rails, and I wouldn't. One rail is plenty enough to isolate a section. Then the brown side of the DCC all round the layout can act as the bus wire for the Tortoise motors, and you don't need a separate wire round the layout for that. One less wire is one less to go wrong. And much easier for testing.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

Martin

 

You can't use the DCC track wiring as a common conductor it has to be kept separate from other circuits, Gordon is correct in his thinking about keeping them separate

 

Geoff

[martin_wynne]

You can't use the DCC track wiring as a common conductor it has to be kept separate from other circuits, Gordon is correct in his thinking about keeping them separate

 

Hi Geoff,

 

Why not? Please explain. I can't see any reason.

 

Here is a diagram Gordon if you want to try it. Don't forget the £100 saving on optical sensors or proximity detectors:

 

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[martin_wynne]

I'm sure you're right, Martin, but my simple head say the Tortoise motors are running on 12v/0v/12v DC and in my head DCC is AC.  I know it isn't, but separating the two completely helps me keep my head straight when trying to wire something up or fault finding.

 

Hi Gordon,

 

If it helps think about your fishpond. The the common wire is the pond. Other wires are pipes. Batteries, transformers and power supplies are pumps.

 

Water is pumped out of the pond, through something, and back into the pond. You could have several separate systems doing that, and they would all work fine simultaneously.

 

Martin.

Edited January 20, 2016 by martin_wynne

[BoD]

Hang a little cat bell over the middle of each track.

 

Much more sophisticated than Phill's 'Bang'.

[martin_wynne]

Here's a simpler idea, for those not wanting to use a common wire. This uses the DCC power to light the lamp. It will need to be a 24volt lamp, or preferably a LED+resistor+50volt diode to save DCC power.

 

 

Martin.

Edited January 20, 2016 by martin_wynne