Popular Post gordon s Posted November 24, 2012 Author Popular Post Share Posted November 24, 2012 (edited) The brown paint is household emulsion mixed by my local paintshop. I think there is a code number on the tin, so I'll take a look later. I get a litre of it for a few quid, so much cheaper than most other paints. Whatever you do with tracklaying, something is going to take a while. In my case it's ballasting, although I have followed the good Captain's method which although time consuming, gives a good result with no rework. I know Coachmann prefers to glue his track down and then sprinkles ballast into the wet glue. That has upsides, but then you have to wire it and hand paint the rails and sleepers, so you save a bit on one process and then lose out on another. I airbrushed all the track on this board in less than an hour. There's little or no smell and because the airbrush is pretty accurate from an inch or so away, there is little overspray, unlike a aerosol can. I'm using emulsion paint so there is little or no smell. I just have the windows open to ensure the room is well ventilated. If you want to split hairs, I know the rails aren't the same colour as the sleepers in real life, but once airbrushed, ballasted and then airbrushed again to tone down the ballast, the result is an acceptable compromise. Once finished it looks something like this. In this old pic, I have used medium ballast and it has yet to receive the final dirt overspray. It's still a bit on the big side, so the new ET will use fine ballast, but you can get the idea... Edited November 24, 2012 by gordon s 21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 27, 2012 Author Share Posted November 27, 2012 I knew it was all going to well..... Last night disaster struck. Ballasting really is my bette noire, but over the last few months I thought I had conquered that particular skill by painting on PVA and then sprinkling on the ballast and once dry hoovering up the excess. Job done, neat and tidy and without having to soak and spray all the trackwork. A combination of several factors conspired last night and blew me out of the water this morning. I changed to a finer gauge ballast and bought a 'fine applicator for PVA. Having a fine nozzle I watered down the PVA and added some washing up liquid to let it run better. The PVA applicator was brilliant and the PVA flowed quickly and easily into all the right places. On with the ballast and then left it overnight to dry. Came down this morning and there was no loose ballast to hoover up. Capilliary action had taken the more dilute glue into the fine ballast and stuck everything together leaving non scale piles of ballast between the sleepers and up into the rail gaps. Tried to pick it out but it was a hopeless task, so out it all came this morning...... Whilst plain track holds no fear for me, ballasting pointwork has been a nightmare, so I think I'm going to go down Coachman's route and paint the pointwork first, bed it down onto PVA and then immediately sprinkle ballast onto the wet glue. I have tried this route before and it worked well, but I felt it looked like the pointwork was floating on top of the ballast rather than in it. Maybe it could be topped up afterwards, we shall see. Anything is going to be better than having to rip up carefully laid track, relay all the underlay and respray all the track. The scrap metal thieves have been in.... 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Jason T Posted November 27, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 27, 2012 Such a shame, when you were progressing so well but it's not the end of the World and I presume that with the turnouts removed, you were able to remove the erroneous lumps. In the past, I've had the same issue with finer ballast going lumpy, which is why I painted in Copydex and added the ash ballast one layer at a time (on the turnouts that are in ash ballast). I had to do quite a few layers and it was repetitive, but the end result is (hopefully) ash ballast that is not lumpy, and to a suitable level. What put me off Larry's method was that I wanted to lay the turnouts unpainted, just in case I needed to make any alterations (which I did); much easier to resolder before paint is applied. Obviously you are a lot more competent at building turnouts than I am though, so I presume you don't need to take the same cautionary measures and as such, painting first and then laying turnouts and ballast at the same time seems to be the way to go. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 27, 2012 Sorry to hear that Gordon - what a b*gger. It's all part of the thing which makes me very wary when it comes to ballasting and which hit me when daughter and I did the SWAGday module last year and we I just couldn't seem to get the right combination of wetness, pre-soaking (or otherwise) and so on correct - and that was on a tiny bit of track (fortunately as one lot took 3 days to dry). So I wish you well with the next attack and look forward to hearing which method comes through as the most successful. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 27, 2012 Author Share Posted November 27, 2012 (edited) Thanks Sandside. The process I think I will follow will be to loose lay the pointwork and hook it up to the adjacent track. Solder up the droppers and then once I'm 100% happy that all is OK, slide the fishplates to one side and disconnect the droppers underneath the board. Take it away and spray it with primer and top coat and then once dry, apply the PVA to the cork and slide it back into place. Sprinkle on the ballast and all should be fine. I've just dug out a pic of a diamond I did using this method and in all honesty, it looks OK and not as I remember it, so that might just solve the problem. Plain track isn't a problem as there is plenty of space to use a small brush. The thing with the fine tip PVA applicator is that I could get into all the nooks and crannies that a brush wouldn't. In that way it solved one problem, but the more dilute PVA and finer ballast just caused another. Oh well, I'll get over it and hope this is just a minor setback. Either way I have learned something.... Edited November 27, 2012 by gordon s 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted November 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 27, 2012 Hi Gordon, Sorry to see your problems. 1. Please leave ballasting until you have got a working model railway. On a model railway ballast is cosmetic and part of the scenic department. 2. Don't touch PVA with a bargepole. Use a latex adhesive such as Copydex. If the layout is already wired up and working when you ballast, the tedious business of cutting away the latex film before drilling holes through it won't apply. regards, Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 (edited) Martin, Do you know what the formula for Copydex is? I'm sure it may be available over in the 'States but under a different name... Mind you, Gordon may detest the smell - which is pretty loathsome. Best, Pete. Edited November 27, 2012 by trisonic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 (edited) I am really sorry to read of the problems Gordon. Each to his own. The way I lay track and ballast in one go could drop someone in the sh*t if they panicked! I take time in setting up and fishplating the track. Only when everything is as perfect as I can get it do I gently lift the spiders web of track aside, blow off any dust and apply PVA to about 8 feet of trackbed. Then its a case of lifting the web onto the glue, ensuring paths off pointwork are parallel (straight edge used here) and adjusting the curves by eye. A Peco pin here and there pushed into the wood and bend over stops movement then I pour on the ballast. It acts like real ballast and holds the track in position while it is gently tamped down with the fingers and pushed off ralheads. Then 3"x1" and 2" x1" timbers around 4' long are placed on the railheads followed by layers of railways books. The key is not to bend the timbers in the centres. They are there to distribute weight and ensure the track lies perfectly flat even on a camber. After an hour I remove the weights to see if everything is alright, as there is still time to make adjustments. The ballast and cess ash is vacuumed off before putting back the weights. When they are finally removed an hour later the ballast is still dark brown because it is damp, but it soon dries out. Job done. On the 2008 layout I didn't glue points down but ballasted them separately using the ballast afterwards with a dropper method. It took too long for my taste and the results weren't that pleasing either. As I said at the beginning, each to his own and what he feels comfortable with. Edited November 27, 2012 by coachmann 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 27, 2012 Author Share Posted November 27, 2012 Thanks for the suggestion Martin. Normally, I would agree with your process logic, but I have a couple of reasons why it has to be done at this stage. The slope of the roof and limited access means it has to be done before sliding into position as a completed module. Secondly the back surgery I had a couple of years ago means I can't stand for long periods of time and the limited headroom does preclude access to both sides of the layout without semi tunneling yourself into a reducing head height situation. Not an issue with stock rerailing etc but virtually impossible to ballast. With the module in the middle of the room, I can access both sides and do all the work sitting down. I have used Copydex before and whilst I could just about manage the smell, my dear lady wife made her feelings clear, so in the interests of domestic harmony I would prefer not to use it unless there was no real alternative. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted November 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 27, 2012 Do you know what the formula for Copydex is? I'm sure it may be available over in the 'States but under a different name... Mind you, Gordon may detest the smell - which is pretty loathsome. It's only ammonia and it soon disperses. Not toxic and not as bad as that awful pong fron Butanone solvent used for the plastic chairs. The data sheet for Copydex is here: http://www.axminster.co.uk/downloads/400307_HealthAndSafetySheet_1.pdf Nowadays it is made by Henkel as part of their Pritt range. There is a lot of stuff on US craft forums from folks looking for it over there, to no avail it seems. Perhaps the (very low) Methanol content means it is prohibited in the US? Here is an official response from Henkel: -------------------------------------------- Thank you for e-mailing Henkel Corporation concerning our products. We appreciate the time you took to contact us. Unfortunately, we do not carry the Copydex in the United States or any equivalant. If you have any questions, comments or suggestions, please feel free to call us at (800) 321-0253, Monday through Friday, between the hours of 9:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m. Eastern Time; or visit us on the Web at www.henkelca.com. Thank you again for e-mailing Henkel Corporation. Sincerely, Consumer Relations Representative Henkel Corporation ---------------------------------------------------- Copydex is a solvent-free (water-based) latex adhesive with the consistency of thick cream. Similar latex adhesive is commonly available in larger quantities from carpet fitters as "carpet adhesive", although in my experience genuine Copydex is a better quality and does not break down after a few years. The problem with searching for latex carpet adhesive on US sites is that it is frequently muddled up with solvent-based rubber adhesives and contact adhesives. There is probably a direct equivalent somewhere -- what do US school children use to stick felt, fabric, and similar craft materials? Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium skipepsi Posted November 27, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 27, 2012 Gordon I hate to comment with hindsight but do do a test piece on some track off-cuts until you are confident speed of use and appearance plus stability. I experimented with the 2011 entry I still haven't finished and decided I preferred johnsons Klear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Adhesives for track laying does seem to be one of those areas that are very dependent on individual taste and what works for you. Despite Martin's assurances about Copydex being good for you, I just can't bear to be in the same room as that stuff or any of the latex carpet glues. On the other hand, I have no trouble with butanone provided I keep a window open and don't inhale directly from the bottle. After trying several recommended ballasting methods, I settled on gluing sleepers to the trackbed with PVA and use Klear for ballasting. If something more solid is required, dilute PVA can be added after the Klear has set. ...Came down this morning and there was no loose ballast to hoover up. Capilliary action had taken the more dilute glue into the fine ballast and stuck everything together leaving non scale piles of ballast between the sleepers and up into the rail gaps. Tried to pick it out but it was a hopeless task, so out it all came this morning... I think this would still be a problem with the method I use, so it's really essential to get the ballast level right (with a soft brush) before applying whatever glue you use. Perhaps, though, that's much easier for me to do as I build the track in situ, laying the sleepers/timbers first, then ballasting to sleeper height and laying the rails last. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Martin, Kids over here use a thicker form of PVA from Elmers, of course! Best, Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert McGee Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 (edited) Just spent 5 minutes reading page 27 thinking I was the current page, no wonder I was getting confused. You've had a cracker of a year ( no pun intended ) , as it was page 27 this time last year. Shame about your ballast, that's a reason why we won't be ballasting until the last minute, and if for some reason the layout goes pair shaped, we can remove track to take away the dodgy scenery. When self building track, does it matter about preserving it, or is it fairly simple to re build? Robert Edited November 27, 2012 by Robert McGee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted November 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 27, 2012 Martin, Kids over here use a thicker form of PVA from Elmers, of course! Hi Pete, But PVA isn't flexible when set, so it's not much good as a fabric adhesive. This is the one you want, which appears to be Elmers equivalent to Copydex: http://www.elmers.co...ct/detail/E6015 The data sheet is at: http://www.elmers.com/msds/me6015.htm Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 27, 2012 Author Share Posted November 27, 2012 Made some progress. Junction has been completely stripped, track resprayed and cork underlay replaced. Once the track was aligned and adjoining pieces fixed into position this crossing was realigned and PVA spread over the underlay. The fine ballast was then sprinkled on, gently tamped down and the excess immediately hoovered off. It's clean, no bits in the rail gaps and looks OK. If I were critical it's clinically clean, but then the paint has to be cleaned off the rail heads and the ballast weathered. There is still an element of floating on the ballast, rather than being bedded in, but to be honest after last night, it's another compromise I'm going to have to accept. The plain track is not an issue for me and I can deal with that, particularly using the fine tip applicator so thanks Doug (Chubber) for alerting me to something so useful. I know you are using it for building construction which is miles away from track ballasting, but it will prove just as useful. http://www.finetip.co.uk 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Hi Pete, But PVA isn't flexible when set, so it's not much good as a fabric adhesive. Martin, It's why they "crunch" when they sit down! I'll try the Elmer's you suggest (first for the smell factor). Thanks, Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92220 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Hi Gordon, Sorry to hear about the setback but I think you have rectified it well. I wish I'd spoken to you beforehand - I did a load of experimenting with ballasting and fine tip applicators, syringes, different mixes of detergent and dilution, drying times before removal etc. I couldn't get anything like the right results and went back to the paintbrush method. I think it was the need to use detergent to make the glue flow into the narrow gaps which then caused that glue to run upwards between ballast pieces, and even removing the ballast immediately after application wasn't soon enough to stop that. Anyway, glad that you have got it sorted out! Best wishes, Iain 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I just use neat PVA and don't dilute it. Application is by a small paintbrush. I don't use quite as much glue as in the photo, but holding the brush and camera at the same time to take the picture has made the glue dribble down more..... 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandc_au Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I use diluted PVA, AFTER wetting down with wet water. I must admit the stuff Martin has mentioned reminds me of stuff we used 40 years ago to hold down underfelt. If I knew what it was called I would use today as I could see the benefits of using it in preference to pva. Khris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 Thanks Guys. I wish I'd spoken to you both before going down the diluted PVA route... Anyway, no real harm done. Reset the junction last night and all is back in place and ballasted. There's no doubt that thinning the PVA is a recipe for disaster with capilliary action being the real killer. Using neat PVA means the excess ballast can be hoovered up immediately and leaves a neat finish with no chance of ballast going into the moving parts or other nooks and crannies. To be honest I think I will ballast all pointwork like this in future. Yes, it may have the appearance of 'floating' but peace of mind and avoiding yesterdays rework will be worth it. Now I have to improve the electrical connections. From normal viewing distance the droppers are not really visible, but close up photography can be really cruel. The one thing that has struck me is the number of compromises that have to be made on a large layout because of time. The PCB slots show up in this angle, but aren't normally seen as they are close to the nearside rail. They will be far less obvious once flat surfaces are broken up with weathering and changes in colour. A flat surface in one single colour is the worst thing for showing up every imperfection known to man. All credit to JSW with New Street as he makes few if any compromises, but I'm finding that the time taken to complete a job means compromises have to be made, after all the body clock is ticking and I have 30 years start on Jim.... So it could have been so much worse, but we live to fight another day. Weather is OK and 18 holes are calling this morning, so it will be good to get out in the fresh air. 15 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Jason T Posted November 28, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 28, 2012 I actually had to look back at the photo to spot the slots then Gordon; they really aren't that noticeable unless you go looking for them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artizen Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Interesting how there are so many ways to do the same job! I tried using neat or at least a strong solution of PVA on the ballast but found I was getting a shine off the surface from the dried glue. Recently I have been using a 90:10 ratio of water to glue so it is very weak, mixed with a little detergent to help it along. I have ballasted this track last after the scenery was finished. A word of warning though - I build the layout with this method in mind so everything is capable of withstanding getting quite damp (I use plastic extensively for track base and construction, plus I use grass mats that are capable of getting completely wet). Here is the track - Peco 75 with Polak ballast. Every single stone is glued down - it took three goes but I got there in the end. Each dosing with glue only takes about three hours to dry in the sun. I still need to weather the track and the paint on the top surface needs to be rubbed off (Windsor and Newton Burnt Umber). For what it's worth, I would prefer to use a glue that stays slightly flexible. It appears to help the layout settle between variations in temperature and humidity. I have latex, but hate the smell (so does the rest of the family). Unfortunately, latex and to some extent, PVA, don't take well to the Peco plastic. On some sections I have had to resort to super glue to hold the track when the craft glue I was experimenting with failed completely. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Rowsley17D Posted November 28, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 28, 2012 (edited) Hi Gordon, sorry to hear about the problems with ballasting. I have been a firm user of latex and the wet method. It does not set like concrete unlike PVA and helps with sound deadening. However after reading about the virtues of Johnson's Kleer on various threads I am going to experiment with this before ballasting my planned project. I guess like most things it is each to his own and whatever works for you. Edited November 28, 2012 by Rowsley17D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Belgian Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 (edited) I recall a method that was popular in the 1970s, known as 'dry ballasting'. This used a powdered white glue mixed in with the ballast and sprinkled onto the previously-laid track. One could then spread it to one's satisfaction, make sure the moving parts are free of stones and fix it by a fine spray of water mixed with a drop of washing up liquid to eliminate surface tension. I used it on P4 and S4 track with no problems. Does anyone do this today, or has it fallen from grace? JE Edited November 28, 2012 by Belgian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now