RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 28, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 28, 2012 I recall a method that was popular in the 1970s, known as 'dry ballasting'. This used a powdered white glue mixed in with the ballast and sprinkled onto the previously-laid track. One could then spread it to one's satisfaction, make sure the moving parts are free of stones and fix it by a fine spray of water mixed with a drop of washing up liquid to eliminate surface tension. I used it on P4 and S4 track with no problems. Does anyone do this today, or has it fallen from grace? JE It was one of the methods we (daughter and I) tried for some ballasting on our SWAG module earlier this year - we either used the wrong powdered glue or triumphed in incompetence as it was dismal failure with the powder separating back out of the mix as it dried. I understand Cascamite is the recommended adhesive from those who have had success; we used 'Extramite' - but it wasn't at all extra in performance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Belgian Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 It was one of the methods we (daughter and I) tried for some ballasting on our SWAG module earlier this year - we either used the wrong powdered glue or triumphed in incompetence as it was dismal failure with the powder separating back out of the mix as it dried. I understand Cascamite is the recommended adhesive from those who have had success; we used 'Extramite' - but it wasn't at all extra in performance. Cascamite certainly rings a bell with me. JE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Rowsley17D Posted November 28, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 28, 2012 Cascamite certainly rings a bell with me. JE From reading model railway mags in the 70s I seem to remember that this too set like concrete but was widely used. Could it have been cheaper than PVA which I seem to remember was hard to get hold of? I don't think there were any generic versions but could only be bought as "Marvin Medium" at least that is what they used in schools at the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Cascamite rings bells with me to. I also used fish glue in the early 1960s (the same???), that had to be melted it in water in a pan over on the grate. Stunk a bit! Then as now I used the glue, lay track & ballast method....Anything else looks too much like hard work or playing silly beggars. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyrush Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Cascamite it was. Needed to be used in generous quantities and wouldn't work if the ballast was dusty. Guess how I know? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Gordon: did you rescue that point formation, or have to replace it? Sorry in advance if I missed it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrkirtley800 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I used Cascamite for years, and like Coachman, layed track and ballast together. It did the job admirably. Casco glue preceeded Cascamite and I thought it was better. It had a pleasant smell but you had to mix the glue powder with the measured amount of water, mix, and wait for 20 minutes before use. Still dried like concrete but was a very good glue especially for wood. My father, who was an expert woodworker used Casco exclusively and this was in the 1940's. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 Hi Guys, been out knocking a golf ball around and I have to say the fresh air did me the world of good. Maybe total focus on one hobby is too much after a while... Yes Jeff, they are the same pieces of pointwork. I cut through the rail where necessary and then slid a decorators scraper under the cork and lifted the whole thing away. A soak in boiling water dealt with the ballast and gentle persuasion took the cork away from the track. A scrub with a stiff brush removed the paint and then it was start all over again. New underlay and repainted trackwork and we're back heading forwards again. Thanks for all your suggestions on ballasting. Yes, it was Cascamite, but no, I haven't tried it. I have to say, that painting PVA between the sleepers on plain track is fine for me and works well. Now having had a successful outcome with gluing the track and ballasting at the same time, I will use this method on turnouts and crossings. Looking down and seeing all the gaps totally clear and the switch blades free to move has convinced me it is the right solution for me. Right now I'm happy that all is back on line and my motivation is high. 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 A case of K.I.S.S. Best, Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Glad to hear you rescued the formation, I was going to suggest a similar method. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium skipepsi Posted November 29, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 29, 2012 I did try that, I had two bags of it and it was awful. The difficulty is keeping the mixture consistent when applying it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Bear Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Right now I'm happy that all is back on line and my motivation is high. Good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelW Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Hi Gordon, I've been reading through your thread for the past week or so, and I have to say I'm mightily impressed. Not just with the results of your attention to detail, but also the way you explain your way through what you're doing, and what you are thinking about the project. After a while each new page was a voyage into the unknown - will the layout still be there at the end of the page? Glad to see you've returned to gradients in a plan that you are happy with. I shall keep following to see how you get on now. Glad to hear that the latest outbreak of the black track plague hasn't affected you 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 I'm sure the dark brown ballast I bought in the early 1960s was made of cork. It adhered well to the Cascamite as one would expect. Peco have had a good run with modellers. I used their fibre sleeper webs in those far off days, then spiked the rail down aferwards making points as I went along. I couldnt wire the damn points for two-rail and so laid a centre third rail in the end, which also saved converting Hornby Dublo locos and stock. I'm an admirer of your handbuilt sweeping points and crossings...I'll bet your trains look a treat smoothly negotiating all this interwoven spagetti... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesysmith Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 That photo on the previous page, of the flowing junction and the start of the incline. It is just insperational and gives people the reason to build your own track. One question, dont you need trap points protecting the junction , especially there being a gradient there? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted December 1, 2012 Author Share Posted December 1, 2012 Thanks Cheesysmith, I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that one, but no doubt others will. It may be something to incorporate later once I get the repair/construction completed. Thanks for your post MichaelW. It made me chuckle. I'd never thought I was writing a suspense novel. Will he? Won't he? Will it still be there tomorrow? That made my day.... I had another go with the diluted PVA and fine tip applicator on plain track again last night and it was much better. The key is not to over dilute the PVA. Just enough to allow it to flow like thick cream and dense enough to hold the ballast, as the best way to take off the excess is immediately after sprinkling. Leave it any longer and capilliary action would cause clumping as before. If it is too wet it won't hold the ballast in the vacuum process. I still wouldn't advocate this process on pointwork. The Coachmann method gives much better results all round. I'm probably going to lift the switched crossing which I hadn't ballasted at all. The results on the double junction are so much cleaner using Coach's method and I fear I will mess up the crossing if I try any other process. Bit of a pain, but better to do it at this stage than live to regret it. Seems that track lifting virus is still about..... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 I've just read the first 16 pages of this and wow! That's some creation. Only another 30 odd pages to read! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted December 1, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 1, 2012 Seems that track lifting virus is still about..... Look - I'm fast approaching the (proper, unlike some) retirement age, and would like to have a play with ET before I start pushing up daisies so - GET A CURE!!! 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 (edited) Look - I'm fast approaching the (proper, unlike some) retirement age, and would like to have a play with ET before I start pushing up daisies so - GET A CURE!!! I'm past 60 and would like to see trains running on Eastwood.... Edited December 1, 2012 by JeffP 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglian Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 I had another go with the diluted PVA and fine tip applicator on plain track again last night and it was much better. The key is not to over dilute the PVA. Just enough to allow it to flow like thick cream and dense enough to hold the ballast, as the best way to take off the excess is immediately after sprinkling. Leave it any longer and capilliary action would cause clumping as before. If it is too wet it won't hold the ballast in the vacuum process. I still wouldn't advocate this process on pointwork. The Coachmann method gives much better results all round. Gordon I've been using a mix of Woodland Scenics 'Scenic Cement' (SC) and Evo-stick PVA. The ready diluted SC has proved a more resilient glue for static grass than just PVA diluted with water. I've no idea what the chemical composition of SC is that seems to make it better than just dilute PVA but it might be something worth investigating for your application. When applying static grass the method I use is to mix PVA with SC so it's like a thin cream then apply the material, removing the excess that hasn't stuck. I reason the SC is the best bonding agent but the thicker PVA stops the area turning into a runny mess, or the SC from just flowing away. Once this first layer is dry (warm room and about 6 hours) I then only apply SC and more material, this double layer of course takes more time but the top layer doesn't seem to be so clumpy. I appreciate you are using ballast and not static grass but SC may give you good results as it has for me. Just a thought. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sml1983 Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 (edited) How prototypical are switched crossings? I'm planning a midlands based layout in 1959. It would be done in two phases and phase one would look a little like this Edited December 16, 2012 by sml1983 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted December 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 16, 2012 How prototypical are switched crossings? Hi, Switched crossings (movable K-crossings) are mandatory at crossing angles flatter than 1:8 (and shorter if curved). There are some notes in Templot at real > K-crossing options > ? K-crossings - help menu item. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sml1983 Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Thanks Martin. That's pretty neat. Just had a play in templot and now that this has been pointed out to me, can't believe i didn't see this before. So if templot shows the given crossing as a fixed k, when its set to automatic, this means it shall run fine or is this not definate? Obviously it is dependant on build quality. By the way, i forget my manners. Gordon what an inspiration you are. Your trackwork is amazing and the fact you haven't given up yet even though we're onto mk iv (or is that v or vi? i lose count) is astounding. Thoroughly great post. Read all of it in a day and looking forward to the next post. (After mine that is lol) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted December 16, 2012 Author Share Posted December 16, 2012 (edited) Apologies for the lack of updates just recently. The ballasting fiasco knocked the stuffing out of me after several weeks of continuous work. Decided I needed a break so joined the local golf club which is just feet from my back garden. I used to play twice a week but back problems stopped me several years ago. Thankfully surgery got me functional again, but I lost my nerve in turning my body in a golf swing so stopped playing. It was the ballasting catastrophe that made me rethink the whole large layout build process and how your motivation comes and goes in waves. A large layout needs a lot of time and you may find you work several hours every day over quite a long period. Fine when all is going well but a setback can make you realise just how many hours you have put into construction and how a hobby has almost turned into a job. That's OK, but in any job you have days off and you have a decent holiday. Playing golf again has become my annual holiday and so I've taken a break. ET is not being scrapped or redesigned, just resting whilst I get my enthusiasm back. I've been doing bits and bobs and most of the ballasting/track has been relaid, but not at the concentrated pace that I was working to before. I know only too well, there will be a wet and windy day when I'll think 'what am I doing here, I could be home in the warm working on the layout' and then it will be all systems go again. Many thanks for all your positive comments about my journey in this hobby of ours. They really are heartwarming and encouraging. Please accept my very best wishes for a Happy and Peaceful Christmas. 2013 will see something run.... Edited December 16, 2012 by gordon s 19 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ray H Posted December 16, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 16, 2012 Please accept my very best wishes for a Happy and Peaceful Christmas. 2013 will see something run.... Would that be you Gordon after the blighter that nicked your golf ball? Best wishes for the festive season and the New Year. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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