Chuffinell Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 I am thoroughly happy with my NCE kit. However, it does not seem to like Hornby decoders at all. Seems fine with all others, including Bachmann. Seem to get poor responsiveness from the Hornby chips and I've even had one fried for no apparent reason! Is this a general thing? ie: don't mix NCE & Hornby decoders? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
amdaley Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 I have NCE as well & a Hornby Pannier with a Hornby chip. It works fine but I wouldn't have anything to do with Hornby chips. The only reason I have this Hornby chip is because it came in the loco. The best thing to do is replace them one by one starting with the worst. You might also try a chip reset & see if that helps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mr.S.corn78 Posted March 27, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 27, 2011 HI, I've not had any problems with Hornby chips and my PowerPro andi have lost count of the amount that has been used together. I use mine connected to my test track plank and with the loco on a set of rollers to run them in after i have modified them. Not sure why you seam to be having problems it may just be bad luck. Also its not unsual to have Hornby chips just fry themselves and i have even had one burst in to flames lucky the loco body was off at the time. cheers Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuffinell Posted March 27, 2011 Author Share Posted March 27, 2011 I have NCE as well & a Hornby Pannier with a Hornby chip. It works fine but I wouldn't have anything to do with Hornby chips. The only reason I have this Hornby chip is because it came in the loco. The best thing to do is replace them one by one starting with the worst. You might also try a chip reset & see if that helps. Thanks - how do you do the reset? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mr.S.corn78 Posted March 27, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 27, 2011 Thanks - how do you do the reset? Hi, you need to put 33 in to CV8 and this will return the decoder to factory settings. cheers Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave flint Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 I cant say I've had any problems with the 8249 chip and the power cab. Have you reported this to Hornby ? They might be interested in incendiary decoders. Can we be a little more specific here please ? Hornby have 3 chips...the despised 8215, the 8249 and the sapphire. There might be others lurking in their dcc fitted stuff. We don't post about tcs or lenz chips without giving model numbers do we ?! There. Rant over, carry on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WardRail Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I've been using the despised 8249's with a powercab and powerpro for a while with no real dramas. I don't like the 8249's because a lot of the examples I've bought have come with a wire (name any wire colour except purple !) disconnected from either plug or decoder board, necessitating some very fiddly soldering to get it back on again. Apart from the above, I've not had any problems with the 8249's as described by others. I'm in the midst of replacing all 8249's with TCS decoders at present. I got the 8249's so I could get things moving on DCC in a cheap fashion. I have one Sapphire under a Bachmann 25 and have no complaints to report on that score Somebody told me the Sapphire was actually a (superseded ?) Lenz of some description - I have no idea about and therefore won't comment on that, but I have found it is a rather reliable specimen and have had no problems at all with it Best Matthew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Somebody told me the Sapphire was actually a (superseded ?) Lenz of some description - I have no idea about and therefore won't comment on that, but I have found it is a rather reliable specimen and have had no problems at all with it Best Matthew Pretty sure its something new and not Lenz. It basically tried to copy the spec of the old Lenz Gold though apart from some water and fuel type gimmicks and the lack of USP/Railcom. You could say its equivalent to the Standard + now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 I have plenty of Hornby 8249's & Sapphires. The only issue I have had was with a Sapphire in my Cl 31 which turned off the lights after a few minutes. Forget Hornby's part number..what decoder model number are the chips reporting when you read them with the handset? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WardRail Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Thanks for straightening that out Pete I have plenty of 8249's and apart from the "wires off" problem I mentioned, I've not had problems with them. I'm replacing them with TCS because of the TCS 2 amp peak (handy when using old Lima pancake powered locos) but they will be kept as emergency "get out of jail" units if a TCS blows mid exhibition or something Just goes to prove with DCC chips ya gets wot ya pays for, at about $30 Australian the 8249's proved to be a cheap and cheerful way of getting my feet wet in DCC Best Matthew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dieselbob Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Hi If you have a Powercab and use 8249 Decoders, then turn your powercab time display to read current flow instead, and see what your layout is drawing. Mine was drawing 0.35 amps with no locos running and no lights on, with 12 locos using 8249's and 15 locos using various other makes of Decoder. When I took the 12 Hornby's off the track, the flow dropped to zero. I now have No 8249's they went on to Ebay and sold for £11.50 each, they were only £8.50 from Hattons at the time (some crazy people around). try it cheers Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WardRail Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Hmm that's interesting.. Will give it a go and let you know, wonder what's causing it ? I'll try it with both power supplies too (basic powercab supply and the pro with its supply) when using the powercab alone, I don't use the supply it came with, I use an old regulated 13.5v 2a CB supply instead because the supply the powercab came with couldn't lift the locos powered by the old Lima "pancakes" I think the results should be the same regards current drop, irrespective of supply unit ampage, but it will be interesting to find out ! Best Matthew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Somebody told me the Sapphire was actually a (superseded ?) Lenz of some description...... Pretty sure its something new and not Lenz. It basically tried to copy the spec of the old Lenz Gold though apart from some water and fuel type gimmicks and the lack of USP/Railcom. You could say its equivalent to the Standard + now. Slightly OT, but responding to the above..... Matthew, the Sapphire is not an old (superseded) Lenz decoder, but as Craig says, does seem to more or less mimic the spec of previous Lenz designs. Craig, the Sapphire does support RailCom, that's how the fuel/water CV works. Fuel and water load is not a Hornby "gimmick, but one of several new options available under RailCom. The comparison with the Lenz Standard+ is probably fair, even though the Sapphire has an extra function available (4 against 3 in the Standard+) and supports ABC (not available on the Standard+). You could say it's closer to the Silver+ on paper spec. alone, although I'd have to be convinced its motor control and reliability are as good (same applies to the comparison with the Standard+). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WardRail Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Thanks for the clarification Ron, I've only the one Sapphire and haven't had it more than a couple of months so cannot really say regards reliability, I can say it does seem to be better at motor control than the 8249's. I've not used Lenz yet due to cost considerations (wanted to keep it cheap in case I decided against DCC) Bob - with all 6 of my 8249 fitted locos, a couple of Lima "pancake" locos with TCS chips and the Bachy 25 with the Sapphire (ie my entire DCC fitted fleet) all on the track, nothing running and no lights on, I got 0.25amps reading, irrespective of cabs/power supplies used. Took the 8249 fitted locos off and like yours, the amps dropped to 0. Thought it might be the capacitors and/or chokes on the boards in locos fitted with sockets, but the Sapphire fitted Bachy 25 was still on the layout and it definitely does have a board (its board and motor are minus caps as are all my chipped locos) but the chokes are still there on the board. As mentioned it was the removal from the track of the 8249 fitted locos that dropped the amps to 0 Not sure what the answer is here, suspect componants (admittedly a long shot, I'm no electronical type)unless its back emf from the controller (another long shot) - anybody got an idea ? Best Matthew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffsOatcake Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 I've avoided Hornby chips as my experience with the one and only one i bought had problems with the wiring falling off. Are the Hornby chips those that are NMRA compliant? as Hornby went about making DCC in their own way for a while, before entering the fold. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 Not intending to knock your findings guys, but this is how reads...... ......Mine was drawing 0.35 amps with no locos running and no lights on, with 12 locos using 8249's and 15 locos using various other makes of Decoder. When I took the 12 Hornby's off the track, the flow dropped to zero. ..... with all 6 of my 8249 fitted locos, a couple of Lima "pancake" locos with TCS chips and the Bachy 25 with the Sapphire (ie my entire DCC fitted fleet) all on the track, nothing running and no lights on, I got 0.25amps reading, irrespective of cabs/power supplies used. Took the 8249 fitted locos off and like yours, the amps dropped to 0. That says..... 27 locos on the track, drawing 0.35 amps. Take away 12 leaving 15 drawing 0 amps. 9 locos on the track, drawing 0.25 amps. Take away 6 leaving 3 drawing 0 amps. In the first example, did you try removing the 15 with other decoders, leaving the 12 R8249 fitted ones to see what the reading was then? Similarly, in the second example, did you try removing the 3 others away, leaving the 6 R8249 fitted ones? (apologies if you already did this) I'm not trying to disprove anything, but it would be interesting to have seen the comparison and it would be a more consistent way of demonstrating that the Hornby decoder was behaving this way. Where as, if all you did was as described above, then all you've demonstrated is that removing "some" locos reduced the current draw. Still, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the findings came to the same conclusion. Regards Ron . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WardRail Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 Hi Ron Didn't occur to me to check it the other way... As I'm about to go out to the garage for an hour or so and do a bit more on the layout, I'll check that very thing and report back - Have a feeling there will be no change as you said, but in fairness it should be tested both ways, again as you said One other thought, I'm wondering could it be my soldering of leads back onto 4 of my 8249's that's done it ? The joints look nice and shiny and the chips do work as advertised, but a shiny looking soldered joint is not a guarantee that it hasn't gone high resistance. What I might do is put the two locos with chips that I know I haven't had to solder wires back on and see what resistance is there (if any) before adding the other 4 8249 equipped locos which I know I've had to solder leads back onto the chips (I've kept notes !) Best Matthew Edit: Just returned from the garage - same reading 0.25A, this time only the 6 8249 equipped locos on track with no lights on, nothing running - and that's after a thorough spot of rail and wheel cleaning ! Tried removing all and putting one back at random until I'd tried all 6 and all showed a drop of 0.04A - at the very least it proves it wasn't my soldering ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil S Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 'Quick Question': how is the current being read? If a digital-multimeter is being used on its 'ac' range, then the result MAY NOT be accurate, making the comparisons invalid, especially at low values: A 'Fluke' meter or similar is likely to give a consistent result, but in my experience, those from Maplin's at the more economical price range, will not - as they are probably set up for 50Hz measurement. If you have a bridge-rectifier, and use that, in series,with the meter across the middle, on its dc current range, you will get a more consistent result. Alternatively, a RRampmeter - designed/calibrated for dcc measurement or a small value resistor with an oscilloscope across it! (The same problem applies when trying to measure Track-dcc voltage - and the solution is similar - but using the bridge rectifier across the track and meter on dc voltage range There will be a quiescent current drawn by each decoder, when the loco is stationary, and all functions are 'off' - but this is generally smaller than that taken by loco or coach lighting, or a sound amplifier. On my (large?) layout, with 4 power districts, the quiescent current with standing locos are about 0.1A, 0.2A, 0.7A, 0.8A .... showing which area(s) has/have the loco depot(s)! (and an empty storage area) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WardRail Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 Quick answer Current is being read as outlined in one of the posts above, by setting Powercab/Pro to read amps instead of show the time Best Matthew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dieselbob Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Hi This is how the current flow was seen by my Powercab. No of locos on track Power usage (r8249 decoders) (amps) 1 0.01 2 0.01 3 0.03 4 0.10 5 0.16 6 0.22 7 0.29 8 0.37 9 0.46 10 0.52 11 0.59 12 0.64 It doesn't leave much left for running. Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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