Killybegs Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 I reckon a message to Justin might produce a result? Mike. Justin doesn't have the answer either. I wonder if there are any examples of the real thing still lurking somewhere. This is the photo that got me wondering. http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/mineralrivet/h1feedda1#h3cdb3f76 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 I know this is a Diagram 1/105 but it has the same uprights as a 109. There appears to be gusseting at the far end and a drop gusset to the Door uprights. ( I don't have the benefit of my 32" Hi-res monitor at the moment). I'd always thought that the line of 4 rivets to either side of the door uprights was to secure a infill gusset but I know nothing compared to others. 61294 Gilmerton by David Bain, on Flickr Sorry, not much help I'm afraid. P 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 61265 moor st by Phil Waterfield, on Flickr I reckon that's Burton South from the opposite side to the 4F. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sir douglas Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 St John Colliery Normanton September 1971 by Sam, on Flickr 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
77philg Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 I reckon that's Burton South from the opposite side to the 4F. It is Burton south but the loco is approaching moor street bridge and gated crossing that used to be . Ind Coope bottling plant is to the left/ behind the signal box. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 It is Burton south but the loco is approaching moor street bridge and gated crossing that used to be . Ind Coope bottling plant is to the left/ behind the signal box. Thanks Phil. Too many Moor Streets Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killybegs Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 Thanks to those of you who contributed to the discussion re gussets on 109's. Gussets have now been fabricated and attached to the Rumney Models chassis. Pics below. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted June 11, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 11, 2017 90172,Featherstone by Mark Walker, on Flickr The final summer by Mark Walker, on Flickr D6710,Featherstone by Mark Walker, on Flickr 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted June 12, 2017 Author Share Posted June 12, 2017 Castle Meads Loco. by curly42, on Flickr 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 61265 moor st by Phil Waterfield, on Flickr Loving the Darlington style smokebox door. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killybegs Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 I notice that some 16t minerals were fitted with instanter links and some with plain 3 links. Was there any ruling as to which wagons had them? Which were the more usual? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 23, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 23, 2017 (edited) I do not recall any 16ton unfitted mineral wagon with 3-link couplings when I worked on the railway in the 70s (freight guard at Canton), and I saw a fair few,! Some fitted 16ton minerals had screw couplings, but none, fitted or otherwise, had 3-link; instanters were by far the most common. In fact, IIRC, all BR standard wagons were fitted with either instanter or screw couplings, as were any pre-nationalisation wagons still in service, e.g. ex-GW bogie bolster C with instanter couplings. There were still a good number of pre-1948 vanfits and opens about, all having been refurbished and provided with vacuum brakes and 3 hole disc wheels to XP standards The only 3-link couplings left were on services stock such as per way or S & T, the latter seeming to specialise in museum pieces, and internal user stock at collieries/coking ovens and steelworks. By and large, if you saw a wagon with spoked wheels it had 3-link couplings Things may have been different a decade earlier, and I believe many of the wooden bodied mineral wagons which survived in decreasing numbers through the 50s and into the early 60s may have had plain 3-link couplings, but they'd long gone by my time. I believe I am correct in saying that 3 link couplings, where they still existed, were on vehicles limited to 25mph running as a result. Class 9 mineral trains, completely unbraked and relying on the loco and brake van only for control, were still common, speed limited to 25mph and with their instanters in the 'long' position to ease shunting and coupling on tight curves in colliery sidings. The coupling was more likely to fail in this mode, as the 'snatching' effect of starting the train or picking it up after slowing was much more pronounced. In 7 years at Canton I never heard of a coupling parting on a class 7 or 8 train, on which of course instanters were required to be in the 'short' position for 45mph running. Axle breakages were much more of an issue. Edited June 23, 2017 by The Johnster 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 As suggested for the unfitted wagons it is all a question of time. BR required the return of instanter and screw couplings (and roller bearing axleboxes) from all condemned wagons - I believe the scrap merchant was given 3 links and plain bearings in exchange. These were then fitted to wagons as they went through shops, so slowly the fleet changed. By the 1970s huge numbers of wagons had been scrapped, many quite modern vans etc which would have had instanters from new. Paul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killybegs Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 As suggested for the unfitted wagons it is all a question of time. BR required the return of instanter and screw couplings (and roller bearing axleboxes) from all condemned wagons - I believe the scrap merchant was given 3 links and plain bearings in exchange. These were then fitted to wagons as they went through shops, so slowly the fleet changed. By the 1970s huge numbers of wagons had been scrapped, many quite modern vans etc which would have had instanters from new. Paul I'm particularly interested in the late 50's. I wonder what proportion would have been converted to instanter couplings by then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 23, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 23, 2017 As a very general principle, you won't go to far too far wrong if you run all wooden bodied mineral wagons, and pre-nationalistion unfitted vans and general merchandise opens that have not yet been repainted into BR livery, with 3-link couplings and everything else with instanters or screw. Any passenger or NPCCS should have screw couplings. There are no doubt exceptions to this but the general principle is fine unless you have photographic or other evidence otherwise for a particular vehicle. So, as far as proportions go. about 80% of mineral wagons were wooden in 1948, about 50% in 1958, and I do not remember any in service after about 1963. Run Class J or K (later class 9) trains with the instanters in the 'long' position at no more than 25mph. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 I'm particularly interested in the late 50's. I wonder what proportion would have been converted to instanter couplings by then. If we are talking about the half million 16ton steel mineral wagons, then I doubt many at all. There would have been a priority requirement for large numbers of instanter and screw to be fitted to the tens of thousands of merchandise wagons/vans being converted to vacuum brake from 1957 onwards. As mentioned these had to have one or other to become XP rated. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 24, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 24, 2017 (edited) The great majority, if not all, unfitted steel bodied 16ton mineral wagons were built with instanters from new, including the pre-war, French 'cupboard door', and M of T examples, and never carried anything else although some fitted ones had screw couplings. Wooden bodied minerals had 3-link, as did the pre-war variants of 'big four' vans and opens. BR's own standard van and open designs wee all built with insanters or screw from new, and a refurbishment programme saw the fitting of instanters, 3-hole disc wheels, and vacuum brakes to XP standards to those pre-nationalisation wagons that were not scrapped, The wagon fleet was in very poor condition at nationalisation and had an unacceptable proportion of unfitted vans and opens which accounts for the massive new build and refurbishment programme in order to improve the stock and increase freight train speeds. Very few 9' wheelbase wagons other than minerals lasted long. Edited June 24, 2017 by The Johnster Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 (edited) The great majority, if not all, unfitted steel bodied 16ton mineral wagons were built with instanters from new, including the pre-war, French 'cupboard door', and M of T examples, and never carried anything else although some fitted ones had screw couplings. I don't want to start a bun fight but the part of the your statement I have quoted is incorrect. I've read through it a few times to make sure I have not misunderstood the point you are trying to make. A quick look through the pics in this thread or a look through the many articles about 16 ton steel minerals quoted within will confirm that. Without checking references I'd say the majority (if not all) of BR built 16 ton unfitted steel minerals were delivered new with 3 links. Those fitted with instanters (BR drop forged type as opposed to GWR fabricated) from new were vac fitted and included a forged coupling pocket or U shape fabricated spacer piece to extend the coupling and hook a further 3 inches from the drawbar. From previous postings etc take a look at these. R577. Minffordd coal shute. June,1961. by Ron Fisher, on Flickr Cardiff East Dock's 9F, 92129 drifts down the 1 in 37 Lickey Incline at Vigo with a westbound freight. by Anthony Haynes, on Flickr As Mr Bartlett has stated there was a edict passed followed by a programme to replace 3 links with instanters but as a wagon passed through works this didn't always happen. I have two negs of 16 tonners having undergone refurbishment and being freshly painted into freight brown livery with the boxed style of lettering. They still retain 3 link couplings with the date of their wagonworks visit being 1965. Re the slope sided minerals reference to Mr Bartletts site is worthwhile. http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brslopesidemineral The Ex Works Charles Roberts example should prove interesting. I could quote many other sources, particularly photographic but life is to short. As I said i'm not trying to start a bun fight. P Edited June 24, 2017 by Porcy Mane 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjnewitt Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 BR's own standard van and open designs wee all built with insanters or screw from new Also not wanting to start a bun fight but this isn't true either. Vacuum braked wagons may have been but uniftted opens (which amounts to the majority of those built) were fitted with 3 links. See pages 15, 17 and of David Larkin's Wagons of the Early Bristish Railways Era. I'm sure there are plenty of other photgraphs out there showing them before the retrofitting program. Justin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killybegs Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 Many thanks everyone, I shall continue fitting my 16t minerals with 3 link couplings and save the instanters I have already made up for something more suitable. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 I don't want to start a bun fight but the part of the your statement I have quoted is incorrect. I've read through it a few times to make sure I have not misunderstood the point you are trying to make. A quick look through the pics in this thread or a look through the many articles about 16 ton steel minerals quoted within will confirm that. Without checking references I'd say the majority (if not all) of BR built 16 ton unfitted steel minerals were delivered new with 3 links. Those fitted with instanters (BR drop forged type as opposed to GWR fabricated) from new were vac fitted and included a forged coupling pocket or U shape fabricated spacer piece to extend the coupling and hook a further 3 inches from the drawbar. From previous postings etc take a look at these. R577. Minffordd coal shute. June,1961. by Ron Fisher, on Flickr Cardiff East Dock's 9F, 92129 drifts down the 1 in 37 Lickey Incline at Vigo with a westbound freight. by Anthony Haynes, on Flickr 16tonnersBuild-GREY-2.jpg B245043-Dunaskin Washery-1965.jpg As Mr Bartlett has stated there was a edict passed followed by a programme to replace 3 links with instanters but as a wagon passed through works this didn't always happen. I have two negs of 16 tonners having undergone refurbishment and being freshly painted into freight brown livery with the boxed style of lettering. They still retain 3 link couplings with the date of their wagonworks visit being 1965. Re the slope sided minerals reference to Mr Bartletts site is worthwhile. http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brslopesidemineral The Ex Works Charles Roberts example should prove interesting. I could quote many other sources, particularly photographic but life is to short. As I said i'm not trying to start a bun fight. P Thankyou and Justin. Saved me! instanters were a GWR invention - and theirs had a distinctive design. I'm not aware any other companies or BR used them before early in Nationalisation and then as an alternative to the even more expensive screw links on vacuum braked wagons. Plenty of original photos in BR wagons and official minerals on my site show the 3 links on various unfitted wagons of many different types. BR didn't waste money in the early 1950s, that came later! http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/mineralrivet/e3835775a http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brmineralweld/e3c9c2154 http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brmineralweld/e3fb3840d Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 24, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 24, 2017 Looks like sometimes I'm not as right as I thunk I wuz; can't argue with photographic evidence and haven't got enough buns for a fight anyway. I am wro..., I mean ron... I mean; I can't type that word, so we'll have to go with 'I am incorrecom(*^, no, that doesn't work either, ok, I was 'differently right'. Actually, I was that word! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted June 25, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 25, 2017 OTDIH- 16th September by Mark Walker, on Flickr Beatrice,Ackton Hall 1969 by Mark Walker, on Flickr F110-031 by STANDARD FIVE GROUP, on Flickr 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted June 27, 2017 Author Share Posted June 27, 2017 Plodding through Kings Norton (pjs,0386) by Geoff Dowling, on Flickr 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killybegs Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Plodding through Kings Norton (pjs,0386) by Geoff Dowling, on Flickr That's from a splendid album of pics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now