Katier Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Withernsea is a long term planning project I'd like to do at some point in the future as it's the town my dad grew up in. As I'm waiting funds to actually create stuff I have been researching and was always confused by a couple of pictures which depicted 'platform 3' for a station with as far as I could tell only had one platform. This video further confused me as I was curious as to why a DMU would be leaving from what looked to be the run around loop... This site finally solved the mystery in that Withernsea appeared to have essentially two bay platforms at one end of the single platform, then where the one bay ( I assume platform 2 ) finished, platform 3 started fed from the line the DMU is on. Search for withernsea in the link then zoom in at 1:2500 on any of the 1910 to 1950 maps and you'll see the line that the coaches are on to the left of the DMU terminates roughly halfway along the platform which then steps out to meet the line the DMU is on. I've seen 'end on' platforms into an island platform, indeed New Street as one such platform, but never seen a platform split like this before. I'm definitely going to do this for a project at some point, looks ideal for a shelf layout, although does need a decent run, I'd estimate the distance to the end of the parallel sidings is about 2000 ft.. or 14 metres in 7mm!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katier Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 Done a quick basic track plan to save you looking at the full thing. Really bizaare layout, anyone seen anything like this before and also any idea why they might have done it like this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Done a quick basic track plan to save you looking at the full thing. Really bizaare layout, anyone seen anything like this before and also any idea why they might have done it like this? You are missing a whole bunch of trackwork on the top of that diagram, including the second running line (based on the video). I'm presuming that the other side (top) was the goods handling side of the station, and that platform 3 was an expansion of the station without having to build a new platform in the goods area (although it might have been the original platform face, with 1 and 2 being the expansion). Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katier Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 Yeah I've just done the platform lines ( was too lazy to do the other side ) - I've seen a picture that seems to indicate a loading dock on the other side opposite platform 3. Not 100% sure what all the lines for and indeed if anyone has any extra information would be appreciated. The platform 3 line is the line the DMU is on so as you can see from the video is the departure line while the incoming line is actually the run around loop - incoming trains for P1 & 2 both need to cross the departure line to get to their platforms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I wouldn't say that a bay within an island platform is all that uncommon. Bolton platform 2 is a bay on a larger island platform. There's also one at Leeds IIRC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted May 17, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 17, 2011 There are 2 at Leeds Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etched Pixels Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 And Halwill was another Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted May 17, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 17, 2011 Rugby had bays at both ends Two bays at north and four at south. Snow Hill had bays at north end of both platforms EDIT just been looking through my Quail maps - there are dozens and dozens of them! Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katier Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 Anyone know why they would do it? The expansion suggestion is plausible although I do know platform three was used very early on. Indeed origonally the runaround loop was fed by a turntable at the end of platform 3. I assume this was too small for larger LNER loco's and with larger tank engines available they just ran the line mainly with tank engines and a conventional run around loop. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted May 18, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 18, 2011 It requires less infrastructure in the form of foot bridges etc and is easier for passengers. It may also be cheaper to build as it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katier Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 Rugby had bays at both ends Two bays at north and four at south. Snow Hill had bays at north end of both platforms EDIT just been looking through my Quail maps - there are dozens and dozens of them! Keith Snow Hill was a bay INTO the platform, not alongside it. I've seen the 'end on' form a lot, as you say, but this form which effectively lengthens the platform I've not seen before. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 This arrangement doesn't seem to have been that common; however, a quick look through my various Quail has thrown up:- Colchester (Platform 4) Leeds (Platform 10) Huddersfield (Platform 2) Woking (Platform 3) Reading (Platform 4 a &B)- the electrified ones. Salisbury (Platform 6) Birmingham New St (Platform 4C) There may well be others (I haven't a Scottish map), whilst other locations look as though they might have had such arrangements (Swindon; west end of Up Platform, for example). I have discounted things like end-loading bays, and looked just for ones with platform numbers. My guess is that the arrangement has been used where an increase in capacity has been needed, but where site constraints preclude widening the station area- it being easier to lengthen the layout instead. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted May 18, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 18, 2011 Leeds also has platform 17 in this form Brian. Leed platform plan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 The rationale for the platform arrangement is all to do with the traffic patterns... For most of the year it was another sleepy backwater with just a few commuter services each day which could easily be accommodated on the single platform (P3) adjacent to the station building, but for a dozen or so weekends each year, was busy with holiday traffic from the nearby metropolis that is Hull! The 3 or 4 coach local service train could be shunted into the adjacent bay P1 (P2 was the conventional bay on the other side of the platform) out of the way, leaving P3 (which could take I think up to 8 coaches) available for excursions. All could then be easily served by the single station building and without the expense of constructing and maintaining a second full platform that would see only 20 odd days use per year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 18, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 18, 2011 This arrangement doesn't seem to have been that common; however, a quick look through my various Quail has thrown up:- Colchester (Platform 4) Leeds (Platform 10) Huddersfield (Platform 2) Woking (Platform 3) Reading (Platform 4 a &B)- the electrified ones. Salisbury (Platform 6) Birmingham New St (Platform 4C) There may well be others (I haven't a Scottish map), whilst other locations look as though they might have had such arrangements (Swindon; west end of Up Platform, for example). I have discounted things like end-loading bays, and looked just for ones with platform numbers. My guess is that the arrangement has been used where an increase in capacity has been needed, but where site constraints preclude widening the station area- it being easier to lengthen the layout instead. That is almost certainly why many of the modern examples exist (although Reading isn't one as 4a & b are a completely separate bay island platform as it happens with no connection to any other line within the next two signal sections). The best through station example was probably Pontypridd which had inset platforms in both directions although they could handle through movements but they give the clue to the other reason why it was done - to create separate platform faces which in many cases, unlike Ponty, could be done without adding pointwork. But basically i agree absolutely with your point Brian that it saves widening, or more correctly excessively widening, the land footprint of the station. And I think it was a relatively unusual arrangement at smaller termini such as Withernsea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted May 18, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 18, 2011 I think that the Salisbury example comes from the original 1859 layout where a single platform face served both up and down lines. Very early plans of the station show the main line then 2 inset platforms at the east end. It is one of these that has survived to become platform 6. When the 1878 up platform was built there was another inset on the Eastern end of this. I assume that these were for terminating London trains in the case of the down platform and starting them in the case of the up platform. With the rebuilding of the station between 1900 - 1902 the up platform was taken out of use along with the odd bay and it also appears that one of the bays one the down platform was lost. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katier Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 Birmingham New St (Platform 4C) I always through of 4C as being a conventional end on platform (I've used it a few times as LM use it for the Wolves service ) but your right it is inset. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katier Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 The rationale for the platform arrangement is all to do with the traffic patterns... For most of the year it was another sleepy backwater with just a few commuter services each day which could easily be accommodated on the single platform (P3) adjacent to the station building, but for a dozen or so weekends each year, was busy with holiday traffic from the nearby metropolis that is Hull! The 3 or 4 coach local service train could be shunted into the adjacent bay P1 (P2 was the conventional bay on the other side of the platform) out of the way, leaving P3 (which could take I think up to 8 coaches) available for excursions. All could then be easily served by the single station building and without the expense of constructing and maintaining a second full platform that would see only 20 odd days use per year. Now that makes sense Do you happen to know if the Turntable was removed due to it being inadequate for larger LNER locos such as B1's? I know Withernsea was unusual in that, despite being a fairly minor branch, it's RA was high enough for mainline trains ( pretty sure even an A4 could go there in theory ). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 I seem to remember, way back in the 1960's or 70's, seeing an article in one of the modelling mags (could have been Railway Modeller) about a 7mm model of Withernsea. Apologies for being somewhat vague but that is really all I can remember. However, I do know someone who may have that magazine and that article, so will contact him to see whether he does have it. If so, then I will pass on details to you so that you can e-mail him. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted May 18, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 18, 2011 Snow Hill was a bay INTO the platform, not alongside it. I've seen the 'end on' form a lot, as you say, but this form which effectively lengthens the platform I've not seen before. So was Rugby and others - I misread what was being discussed. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Contact me direct micknich2003@yahoo.co.uk I have numerious signalling diagrams and ex LNER/BR drawings etc. Mick. Withernsea is a long term planning project I'd like to do at some point in the future as it's the town my dad grew up in. As I'm waiting funds to actually create stuff I have been researching and was always confused by a couple of pictures which depicted 'platform 3' for a station with as far as I could tell only had one platform. This video further confused me as I was curious as to why a DMU would be leaving from what looked to be the run around loop... This site finally solved the mystery in that Withernsea appeared to have essentially two bay platforms at one end of the single platform, then where the one bay ( I assume platform 2 ) finished, platform 3 started fed from the line the DMU is on. Search for withernsea in the link then zoom in at 1:2500 on any of the 1910 to 1950 maps and you'll see the line that the coaches are on to the left of the DMU terminates roughly halfway along the platform which then steps out to meet the line the DMU is on. I've seen 'end on' platforms into an island platform, indeed New Street as one such platform, but never seen a platform split like this before. I'm definitely going to do this for a project at some point, looks ideal for a shelf layout, although does need a decent run, I'd estimate the distance to the end of the parallel sidings is about 2000 ft.. or 14 metres in 7mm!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Here is the signalling plan of Withernsea 1955. The layout remained the same until Oct 1964 when the line closed to passenger traffic, it was then simplified and worked by hand with no signals until the following year when it was abandoned. Mick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold John B Posted May 18, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 18, 2011 I seem to remember, way back in the 1960's or 70's, seeing an article in one of the modelling mags (could have been Railway Modeller) about a 7mm model of Withernsea. Apologies for being somewhat vague but that is really all I can remember. However, I do know someone who may have that magazine and that article, so will contact him to see whether he does have it. If so, then I will pass on details to you so that you can e-mail him. Cheers Mike You're right, Mike. Barrie Walls' 7mm layout "Wallsea" used the Withernsea trackplan, albeit for a GE-based model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katier Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 Thankyou Mick - This project is fast becoming my number one priority. I have a lot of happy memories from visiting my grand parents there so its a bit of a tribute to them. Mick has been a great help but I'd welcome any photos people have of the station along with information such as what goods were brought into the station. One plan shows a gas works beside the line which implies that received ?coal? and I believe there was a loading dock too. Would Withernsea have had a shunting engine of some sort (I'm guessing stabled at Hull and brought down? ). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Do you happen to know if the Turntable was removed due to it being inadequate for larger LNER locos such as B1's? I know Withernsea was unusual in that, despite being a fairly minor branch, it's RA was high enough for mainline trains ( pretty sure even an A4 could go there in theory ). Combination of that and the impending dieselisation (DMUs took over most passenger services in early 1957) for which it would be more hinderance than help. The length of the turntable is quoted as 46' 6" (same as Hornsea) so it would have been too short for many classes of loco for a long time before it was removed in 1955 (I think - sure Mick could give an exact date!)... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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