What are the differences between pre-production and production series 4CEPs?

[gc4946]

The pre-production 4CEPs 7101-4, and 4BEPs 7001-2, were built in 1956 and first allocated to Brighton, but what are the differences between those and the production series units from 7105 upwards?

 

I'm thinking of buying a Bachmann 31-425A 4CEP as the "62" headcode suggests also a Portsmouth Harbour-Brighton service as well as for Kent.

[robertcwp]

The electrics were different, leading do detail differences with equipment. The most obvious difference was that there was a conduit along the roof on 7101-4 and 7001-2. Also bear in mind that there were differences between the production batches, with Bachmann's model depicting the 7105-7153 batch.

 

You can see the roof conduit in this photo of 7101, by which time it had gained Commonwealth bogies.

[Oldddudders]

My recollection is that in the green days, the prototypes had painted window frames, while the series production units had bare metal. I think in the blue era this got diluted, with every unit becoming boring blue, including window frames.

[gc4946]

Thanks very much all, as before now I've seen only one photo of a pre-production unit, a 4BEP, but taken almost at ground level. Having said that, I'm already aware of differences in the production batches regarding bogies, and the final batch with smaller sized headcodes.

 

If I go ahead with it, which isn't certain yet, I would model a 4CEP when new in 1956 to run alongside my small collection of SR steam traction.

 

To represent the extra conduits, I would use either plastic microstrip or thin rodding, certainly the lack of roof ribbing makes fitting easier. Also I have a reasonably steady hand so I could paint over the bare metal frames. AFAIK I don't know if anyone's tried backdating the Bachmann model in this way.

[BernardTPM]

They also had the earlier 'hungry lion' symbol, rather than the coach roundel. They might have been in the older brighter MU green, not sure on that.

[gc4946]

I've consulted Parkin's book on Mk1 coaches and the new SR green started being used from July 1956 at Eastleigh (cited on p.61), but I don't know when the 4CEPs entered service that year.

 

If they received an earlier shade of green, then I don't know either when they got repainted into the (newer) SR green, as depicted on the Bachmann's model.

 

I've just looked at RCTS' book "British Rail coaching stock 1982", the pre-production units are described as:

 

Class 410/1 1951 type 4-BEP units, DMBS, lot 30111, TC, lot 30112, TRB, lot 30113

 

Class 411/1 1951-type 4-CEP units, DMBS, lot 30108, TS, lot 30109, TC, lot 30110

 

The Bachmann 2EPB is a 1951 type unit, so parts could be used from them, especially electrical equipment, to model a pre-production 4-CEP, now come to think of it, did they have different motor bogies from the production versions??

 

Looks like it's nothing as simple as I'd first thought ...

[BernardTPM]

The Bachmann 2EPB is a 1951 type unit, so parts could be used from them, especially electrical equipment, to model a pre-production 4-CEP, now come to think of it, did they have different motor bogies from the production versions??

That would be an obvious way to get the correct electrical gear. I don't think there were any obvious differences in the power bogies, at least not until the later Phases of production units with Commonwealth bogies (and then quite minor). While there were no 2-EPBs with the 1957 gear, the bodies could be remounted on the CEP chassis and converted either to a 4-EPB (quite a bit of work to remove the surplus cabs) or a pair of later 2-HAPs by adding toilets.

[gc4946]

Just looked on the Southern Pride website and they produce the 2EPB, and the electrical gear is available separately, much cheaper than swapping over two sets of 2EPB motorised chassis. I have a 2EPB on order and will compare the electrical gear layout with my 4CEP.

 

www.southernpridemodels.co.uk/

 

Moreover the 1957 stock has fewer roof conduits, and on the 2HAP's DTC, rearranged to suit the seating and toilet layout, so they'll need to be cut away and rearranged to suit.

[robertcwp]

While there were no 2-EPBs with the 1957 gear

There was one, 5800, built along with the 5301-56 batch of 4 EPBs and withdrawn after only a few years' service. Its motor coach went to a BR 4 EPB to replace an accident loss and the driving trailer was paired with a standard 2 EPB motor coach, the trailer having gone to a Tadpole unit IIRC.

[BernardTPM]

Moreover the 1957 stock has fewer roof conduits, and on the 2HAP's DTC, rearranged to suit the seating and toilet layout, so they'll need to be cut away and rearranged to suit.

That's true, but removing the roof conduits also true of the 4-EPBs, still making the 2-HAPs easier overall. On the other hand, use of the Southern Pride parts is a great idea!

[BernardTPM]

There was one, 5800, built along with the 5301-56 batch of 4 EPBs and withdrawn after only a few years' service. Its motor coach went to a BR 4 EPB to replace an accident loss and the driving trailer was paired with a standard 2 EPB motor coach, the trailer having gone to a Tadpole unit IIRC.

Well, none for most of the time!

[Lyddrail]

The Southern Pride undergear packs don't include 1951 stock traction components, only 1957 and 1963 types. Some of the bits are ok for the MG etc but not the contactor boxes. They do make the roof lighting conduit tops to use with metal wire.

 

Cheers.

[gc4946]

I've just come back from the Worth Valley diesel event and looked in the magazine back issues store at Ingrow Railway Centre.

 

I looked through the relevant contemporary magazines and bought a copy of Railway Magazine for Nov. 1956, there's a two page article about the 4CEPs.

 

Four of the six, nos. 7101-4, were delivered in time for the summer timetable from 11 June, they were first officially designated as 4COR (EPB).

The article then states "during the past summer [1956], the three sets working (the fourth being a spare), have had a lengthy duty roster ... starting from Eastbourne (0649) to London Bridge, then London Bridge-East Croydon-Victoria-Brighton-Victoria-Streatham Hill (layover)-London Bridge-Littlehampton-West Worthing (layover)-Eastbourne (berth overnight). At weekends the stock has been used on special and excursion duties"

 

The photo of featured unit 7103 is rather grainy but the DMBS appears with the cycling lion emblem and the window frames are painted. One can just see some of the extra roof conduits along the EMU. As they were completed before July 1956, they would have appeared in the earlier EMU brighter green shade.

 

Thanks for help on certain points, but having investigated this further, I won't now go ahead and model this in original 1956 condition, even though it would be an interesting project, as I'm reluctant to do a full dismantling job to repaint it into the earlier shade of green on a new model, but it would be an interesting challenge for someone to add variety to their EMU fleet.

[eastwestdivide]

Are you also interested in the interiors? I'm pretty sure the earlier ones had wood veneer panelling (dark and dingy) versus formica (light and grubby) for the later ones. But I'm not sure if it was only the "pre-production" ones or also the batch 1 ones (up to 7153).

[BernardTPM]

All the production 4-CEPs had updated interiors, but you're quite right about the prototype units having typical early Mk.1 furnishings.

[gc4946]

You're both right, the interior was also another distinguishing feature. I wasn't so much interested in the interiors, but the same article also had a photo of the DMBS's interior and it was veneer-panelled and looked drab compared with the production versions.

[Oldddudders]

I recognise that beauty is in the eye of, and all that, but I really cannot accept that all that gorgeous wood was "drab". The interior of the prototypes had an aura more akin to Southern Railway stock, with a quality ambience that Formica never could approach. Loved 'em!

[gc4946]

The grainy black/white photo in the article made the interior look like it was drab whereas, apologies, it wasn't so really. No photos were taken of the compartments or side corridors though they would have been in veneer too like contemporary Mk1 LHCS stock.

[eastwestdivide]

Think we'll have to agree to differ on the wood interiors - a barely-glowing incandescent bulb in all that dark wood and predominantly black seat fabric - I kept wanting to take my sunglasses off then realised I wasn't wearing them. Or was that just when boarding in the depths of the gloom that was below Chatham station overbridge. To be fair, the formica didn't scream quality, just the wood was dark. They should have let IKEA loose on the interior design panel - nice bit of pine anyone?

[keefer]

SEMG has several Railway Magazine articles online at: http://www.semgonline.com/RlyMag/index.html

 

the one gc4946 referred to may be this one: http://www.semgonline.com/RlyMag/SRExpressElecStock.pdf

[gc4946]

I didn't know there was an online collection of scanned articles from the Railway Magazine by SEMG when I raised this issue, but as I don't live far from a well stocked magazine back issue collection, I went to Ingrow as my first post of call as well as attending the Worth Valley's diesel event.

[The Evil Bus Driver]

The electrics were different, leading do detail differences with equipment. The most obvious difference was that there was a conduit along the roof on 7101-4 and 7001-2. Also bear in mind that there were differences between the production batches, with Bachmann's model depicting the 7105-7153 batch.

 

You can see the roof conduit in this photo of 7101, by which time it had gained Commonwealth bogies.

 

In that pic it does appear to have an all blue unit attached as well.

[fourepb]

 

To represent the extra conduits, I would use either plastic microstrip or thin rodding, certainly the lack of roof ribbing makes fitting easier. Also I have a reasonably steady hand so I could paint over the bare metal frames. AFAIK I don't know if anyone's tried backdating the Bachmann model in this way.

 

Southern Pride will provide the answer here. Not cheap, but makes a very good job. I've used them on a DCKits 2H