iak Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Ah ha... More J39 naughtiness??? Mind this signal thread is fascinating Mike :icon_thumbsup2: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted March 30, 2010 Author Share Posted March 30, 2010 Ah ha... More J39 naughtiness??? B1, B16 and D20 naughtiness, Ian. Mind I still have another J39 to do; got to use those 3,500 gallon tenders that I made. So once this signal is done 'and then for something completely different'. I might even start the third section of the railway. Just spoilt for choice! Cheers and best regards Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted March 30, 2010 Author Share Posted March 30, 2010 So far, this gantry has largely followed the construction sequence and techniques of the previous gantry and the signal bridge. However, this gantry is to be modelled as it was in 1950, with NER slotted posts and lower quadrants, so here we start to depart from what has gone before. Departure number one is the arms. The upper quadrants were coloured using very thin coloured film which represented the enamel on the arms very well. These NER lower quadrant arms were wood and were painted, so the model arms will be painted to represent that slightly faded look. So after assembling the various linkages and pivots on the arms, a good coat of primer, prior to painting the arms. They can then be left out to dry on the metal 'washing line'. These arms are the MSE etch of North Eastern Railway lower quadrants, though the 4' 6" length, which did necessitate reducing the length of one stop and two distants by 2mm. The distants were shortened at the rounded end so had to be re-rounded (is there such a word?) and re-drilled; easier than trying to re-do the forked end! The dolls will be scratch built using plasticard, though using the various MSE parts for the lamp brackets and holders and the lamps and finials. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Mike I have used the same signal arms on the ones I am building. Its a tight fit between the lamp brackets and the "pull" lever on the signal. The other problem I have had is because you have to paint the arms before fitting to the post .I covered the arms in sellotape over the painted surfaces. Guess what !! remove tape on painting post and said tape made a lovely job of pulling the Humbrol paint off the signal. Cant think of a way around it at the moment. Out of the the current nine arms etc I am battling with, I lost various amount of paint on three. Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted March 30, 2010 Author Share Posted March 30, 2010 Mike I have used the same signal arms on the ones I am building. Its a tight fit between the lamp brackets and the "pull" lever on the signal. The other problem I have had is because you have to paint the arms before fitting to the post .I covered the arms in sellotape over the painted surfaces. Guess what !! remove tape on painting post and said tape made a lovely job of pulling the Humbrol paint off the signal. Cant think of a way around it at the moment. Out of the the current nine arms etc I am battling with, I lost various amount of paint on three. Mick Mick, Yes, I checked the clearance between the lamp brackets and the 'pull' lever and there isn't any. So I shall drill the hole in the lamp bracket out but to one side i.e. off centre, and then make a new bearing which will slot into the enlarged hole. Hopefully by this means I can get another .015" - .020" of clearance which should allow the things to move unhindered. I too will use sellotape to cover the arms but, before I fit the tape to the arms I'll :- Stick the sellotape to a piece of clean card to remove most of the adhesive and Cover the sticky side of the sellotape, after removal of adhesive, with a little flour which will further weaken the bond and should allow it to be removed without taking paint with it. It's a trick I read about years ago in MRN or MRC when these mags were full of such 'constructional hints and tips'. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 I have one left to do I will try the flour method . Not sure how you are doing the lamp bracket can you post a picture please. Hopefully MSE will read this and redraw the etch in due course. I have used some old D&S etches I had, sounds like MSE are still selling the same etch. cheers Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
amdaley Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 I have one left to do I will try the flour method . Not sure how you are doing the lamp bracket can you post a picture please. Hopefully MSE will read this and redraw the etch in due course. I have used some old D&S etches I had, sounds like MSE are still selling the same etch. cheers Mick You could use low tack masking tape or masking fluid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 You could use low tack masking tape or masking fluid. Sadly there is very little room between the arm and the two sides of the post , tape would be too thick. Maskol I have never used again too thick ? Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted March 30, 2010 Author Share Posted March 30, 2010 I have one left to do I will try the flour method . Not sure how you are doing the lamp bracket can you post a picture please. Hopefully MSE will read this and redraw the etch in due course. I have used some old D&S etches I had, sounds like MSE are still selling the same etch. cheers Mick The plan is to use the lamp bracket etch on only one doll on the basis that by 1950 most of the lamps would have been replaced by LNER standard lamps; a process which does seem to have taken place on the full size arms if not the shunting and calling on arms. The attached photo, though a signal bridge not a gantry, clearly shows the rightmost doll (for the main line) with LNER lamps and lamp brackets. Where I will use the etched lamp bracket, then the intention is not to use the 'front' of the folded etch as a bearing but to drill/file the hole out to around .8 mm, off centre from its current location and use a piece of .8mm tube, let into the doll, as a bearing. I'll take a picture when I do this; still battling with painting those arms. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suddaby Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Super work Mike, could I ask where that last photo was taken please? Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted March 31, 2010 Author Share Posted March 31, 2010 Super work Mike, could I ask where that last photo was taken please? Kevin Kevin, The photo above is Scarborough looking east towards the station - the signal box is Gasworks Box. I'm not sure of the date but it must be 1959 or later, when the southern half of the eight road straight shed, in Scarborough mpd, was demolished. They left a part of the shed wall standing - the part supporting the left hand side of the signal bridge. In the middle distance is an absolute monster of a signal bridge, which must have been well over one hundred feet span and sported twelve dolls, and then beyond that and out of shot, yet another monster was situated at Washbeck, with another at Falsgrave (still extant) and another at the station throat. For anyone interested in ex-NER signalling this place must have been a time warp, for it seemed to escape the LNER's and BR's rationalisation of NER signalling, with the removal of arms and dolls, until it was replaced. I don't know how long these signal bridges lasted but certainly into the 1960's and some, at least one, well beyond that for it is still standing and working. One other fascinating (well if signals fascinate you) thing, apparent from this photograph, is that the subsidiary arms (shunting, backing and calling on) seem to have been of two different sizes. The second and third dolls from the right have larger 'small arms' than the dolls to the left of them. Oh and every one of the leftmost six dolls - the ones carrying the subsidiary arms - is a different height? Just to confuse things even more ! Hope that helps Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted March 31, 2010 Author Share Posted March 31, 2010 Now for the white and black stripes on the stop arms. Well it might surprise you but to get this stripe in the right place; to get it the correct width and to ensure that all three stop (home) arms look the same, I'll use a jig. Same jig will also serve for the black stripe on the other side of these arms. This is the simplest jig yet; just two layers of card with a 15mm difference in width and two strips of sellotape, suitably de-adhesived, then stuck on to provide a 3mm (9") red portion with a 2mm (6") white stripe. Later I'll give the white a second coat, then, when all is dry, peel off the sellotape and see how straight the stripe is. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Mike You have probably covered this before?. Why are you using plastic for the dollsand posts? In particular on the current build of the NER slotted version will they have enough strength compared to the MSE etched brass/whitemetal versions?. They must be a pain to build as you cant get a soldering iron anywhere near them. I have also tried to use tape for arm masking without a lot of luck. I have ended up doing them freehand. Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 It's a lot easier to lightly scribe the outline of either stripe or chevron and to simply paint "To the Line". Before painting and using fine "Wet and Dry" paper first rub out the raised burr caused by the scriber point. If you have no means of putting a very sharp point on your scriber use a new sewing needle held in a pin chuck. Mick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted April 1, 2010 Author Share Posted April 1, 2010 Mike You have probably covered this before?. Why are you using plastic for the dollsand posts? In particular on the current build of the NER slotted version will they have enough strength compared to the MSE etched brass/whitemetal versions?. They must be a pain to build as you cant get a soldering iron anywhere near them. I have also tried to use tape for arm masking without a lot of luck. I have ended up doing them freehand. Mick Mick, I got the idea for using plasticard for the dolls from reading an article by Peter Squibb. In terms of strength, the NER slotted doll was around 7" square at its top, comprising a 3" slot and around 2" thick sides to the doll. That will allow me to use .030" plasticard for the sides, leaving a .040" (1 mm) slot. Yes I think plasticard dolls/posts are perhaps more difficult to build than forming a metal post but they are much lighter, they are white so minimal painting is needed and, if assembled carefully, they remain straight. Where anything needs to be soldered near to them, and I have done this many times with back blinders, etc., then a good heat sink near the doll will normally prevent any damage to the plasticard doll. I guess it's what I've got used to and have evolved a set of techniques to deal with the inherent disadvantages and drawbacks of plasticard. Best regards Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted April 1, 2010 Author Share Posted April 1, 2010 Well for the black chevrons, I cheated. The trade off is on the one hand using black paint to achieve that weather worn look but probably not getting the chevron absolutely 'tight' in terms of its lines and angles. Or I use the thin film and cut the chevron spot on but then have a shiny black and quite pristine chevron. Anyway I opted for the latter on the basis that any error in the shape of this figure is more likely to be seen than any undue depth of colour and finish. It's a small point I know but it does make a hell of a difference to these model signals. At least I did paint the yellow, red and white on the arms! Once the colouring of the arms and the stripes and chevrons has been done, then they will be weathered with a very dilute coat of white to soften the colours followed by a coat of 'loco smoke' to give that final dirty look. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted April 1, 2010 Share Posted April 1, 2010 It may be an optical illusion, but to me the Chevrons on your Distant arms look to be to near the arm end. See attached picture of similar signals at Westparade. Mick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted April 1, 2010 Author Share Posted April 1, 2010 It may be an optical illusion, but to me the Chevrons on your Distant arms look to be to near the arm end. See attached picture of similar signals at Westparade. Mick. Mick, If you look on the Scarborough picture then the chevron is much nearer the end of the arm than on the Hull picture. I would guess that it varied according to who painted them and when. And I think the rear chevron was indeed much further back from the end of the arm, as per your photo. That said I think I need to move those chevrons back perhaps .5 - .75 mm to match the photos. Nothing makes (or breaks) a model of a signal more than getting this feature wrong. So thanks for pointing this out, Mick, and for the detailed photographic evidence of exactly how it should look. What's that; 300, 400, 500 or even more photos, drawings and plans which you have provided to help with the various models on Hessle Haven? Cheers and many thanks Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted April 2, 2010 Author Share Posted April 2, 2010 So I think now they're about right, the 'redduns', the 'yelleruns' and the 'whiteuns'; after all these coloured boards are the focal point of the whole thing, prototype and model. Anyone reading this might think I'm mad to go to these lengths but I'll only make this model once, so it may as well be the best I can do. And I did re-do those chevrons for if someone has gone to the trouble of sending me documentary evidence of 'how these things looked' then it would be churlish of me not to use that evidence. Yeah it's not everyone's modelling ethic, I know, but it's mine. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted April 2, 2010 Author Share Posted April 2, 2010 Yet another of Mick Nich's photographs; this one showing an ex-NER bracket with one doll with upper quadrants and with the slotted post filled in; the other doll still retaining its lower quadrant and slotted post. This picture really does allow the relative widths of the wooden sections and the slot, which formed the slotted post, to be established. Also, the thickness of the spectacle casting on that lower quadrant is clearly shown. Using a single thickness of etch to model this is not going to do it; two thicknesses are needed with the coloured glass 'sandwiched' between. I don't know about others but, for me, photographs like this are just priceless for showing how everything went together. Oh and look at that offset on the landing, the bracket support is nowhere near central under the decking. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted April 2, 2010 Share Posted April 2, 2010 The back light blinder on the top arm is missing it's curved steel plate. This type of blinder is still used today and i consider it quite lethal. The curved steel plate passes through a 'tunnel' in the casting and is held in place by pinch bolts. Over time oxide jacking takes place and bursts the casting allowing the plate to fall out. 99% of the time this will fall to earth an no one will notice. Just don't be underneath it for the other 1%. Where i've inspected heritage railways i usually flag this as a problem. On one occasion where i'd asked for a plate to be withdrawn for inspection it was found there was actually nothing left of it inside the casting. I wonder if the problem is much older than i thought and something similar had happened to the signal in the picture? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted April 2, 2010 Author Share Posted April 2, 2010 The back light blinder on the top arm is missing it's curved steel plate. This type of blinder is still used today and i consider it quite lethal. The curved steel plate passes through a 'tunnel' in the casting and is held in place by pinch bolts. Over time oxide jacking takes place and bursts the casting allowing the plate to fall out. 99% of the time this will fall to earth an no one will notice. Just don't be underneath it for the other 1%. Where i've inspected heritage railways i usually flag this as a problem. On one occasion where i'd asked for a plate to be withdrawn for inspection it was found there was actually nothing left of it inside the casting. I wonder if the problem is much older than i thought and something similar had happened to the signal in the picture? And I believe this photo dates from 1964, if that helps you in any way. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted April 2, 2010 Share Posted April 2, 2010 Thanks Mike. If you need pictures of the various types of blinder or any other Eastern Region parts just drop me a line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted April 19, 2010 Author Share Posted April 19, 2010 Well, I haven't posted any new pictures to this thread for a couple of reasons :- 1) The known problem around the sizing of attached images, which appears to have been fixed, and 2) I haven't done very much to these signals in the last few days as the demands of the garden loom larger and larger. Anyway, I have made oodles more upper quadrant arms and a batch of lower quadrant arms along with painting the gantry and being half way through painting the bridge. The latest gantry has its landing formed with the cut outs for the dolls and is about to receive its handrail stanchion castings. So there is some activity; just not a lot to show for it. So here's a photo of the S&T stores! This photo should really gladden the hearts of those modellers (and I was one!) who belong to the legion of 'creative chaos', or, as I have alternatively described them, the 'where the hell has that gone' club. It's a little like giving up smoking (and I did that too) in that there are no more zealous advocates of anything than those who have given up the alternative! Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted April 19, 2010 Share Posted April 19, 2010 Now build the old LNWR gantry at Rugby.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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