ajdown Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 It looks like I may have to bodge some form of traverser option if I'm going to be able to enter this competition and get everything in the space given. Now, I have some ideas, but could someone please clarify for me please if I'm understanding the rules correctly? Imagine a normal framed baseboard, but upside down. 48" x 18". (I happen to have a spare, old baseboard). On top of that is a 44" x 8" slideable surface, with four tracks laid on it, which slide sideways to align with the track leaving the layout. Is it just the slideable surface (44" x 8") that counts within the 2010 sq in (modelling in OO), or is it the entire flat surface of what the slideable surface rests in? If it's A, I'm in. If it's B, then it's back to the drawing board possibly for the entire project. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 22, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 22, 2009 I'm neither judge nor jury on thos one but surely as a treverser will not function unless the area it traverses is there. so the whole area it oocupies would count if it is is the scenic part. If it is in the fiddle yard zone presumably the total area of that counts but there might be some sort of elasticity to regard it as akin to a cassette? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 I was wondering this myself. Is it just the traverser that counts, or the base it sits on. If the base does count, would it still count if it was open frame Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajdown Posted November 22, 2009 Author Share Posted November 22, 2009 I'm neither judge nor jury on thos one but surely as a treverser will not function unless the area it traverses is there. so the whole area it oocupies would count if it is is the scenic part. If it is in the fiddle yard zone presumably the total area of that counts but there might be some sort of elasticity to regard it as akin to a cassette? The entire 'storage' board will be "non scenic" and "off layout" as it were. Whilst we're clarifying things, Lighting structures, pelmets, and such additions are not restricted to the size limit, so may overhang the baseboard area. Am I permitted to have an upright piece of board on the front side of the base for the traverser, containing some information about the layout? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 The entire 'storage' board will be "non scenic" and "off layout" as it were. Not quite correct. Any track that is connected to the layout is counted (except for 7mm entrants who have no need to worry) So it does not matter how big the off scene table that supports the layout or the traverser/SP/cassette/point ladder is. It also does not matter how many tracks are on the traverser table or sector plate. What DOES matter is the area occupied by the track(s) that are connected to the layout. So if you have one track connected in order for the layout to operate it is that area of that track which is included. Obviously if you say no track is connected then the judges will consider that fact when they come to consider if the layout is truly operational. It is probably worth adding that there is an advantage here to having a traverser/sector plate over a point ladder. But that is outweighed by the technical challenge of building one compared to just slapping down a pile of settrack on a plain point ladder. [Ed] and before anyone asks "what about an on-scene traverser?" such as in a wagon/coach works or a turntable in a MPD - as all of those are on the scenic part of the layout their full footprint will count - just as will the insides of buildings (yes, someone asked ) Am I permitted to have an upright piece of board on the front side of the base for the traverser, containing some information about the layout? The backscene, lighting rig, curtains, and podium on which you stand to operate and announce the layout are all outside the layout area unless you claim it is a part of the scenic element or by some ingenuity operate trains on it BTW there is nothing new about the rules on this as they are the same as with the 2006 challenge and those who went through them at the time will remember the same questions cropping up. I accept there are many new to RMWeb (or who simply didn't enter the last Challenge) to whom the rules could seem complicated. Keep asking and I will try to keep clarifying - and Andy will correct me if I'm wrong. HIH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajdown Posted November 22, 2009 Author Share Posted November 22, 2009 So what I had in mind - crudely drawn - is acceptable? The green bit is the scenic board, the traverser slides (as per red arrows) within the frame drawn. Only the moving bit counts? I wasn't around these parts in 2006 even though I've been modelling since 1976 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted November 22, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 22, 2009 If I was to have a laser cut bit of wood made which matches the footprint of the rail/sleepers on the track in the fiddleyard, would it be the surface area of the wood that counts towards my limit, or the outline of the track? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 The green bit is the scenic board, the traverser slides (as per red arrows) within the frame drawn. Only the moving bit counts? I wasn't around these parts in 2006 even though I've been modelling since 1976 No the moving bit does not count ONLY the area occupied by the track that is connected Given the amount of space available in 2010sqin I am quite surprised that some are trying to squeeze every sq in out of the the FY. I think there is more than enough space Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 If I was to have a laser cut bit of wood made which matches the footprint of the rail/sleepers on the track in the fiddleyard, would it be the surface area of the wood that counts towards my limit, or the outline of the track? Nice try .... was it you who asked that last time ? or the one about only using every other sleeper ONLY the area occupied by the track that is connected Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted November 22, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 22, 2009 Nice try .... was it you who asked that last time ? or the one about only using every other sleeper Might have been... Still, think I can save a bit of space by loosing the sleeper either side of the rail..... (Space wise my plan is a little on the tight side after putting the plan on the board at an angle and adding a 2nd treverser.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajdown Posted November 22, 2009 Author Share Posted November 22, 2009 No the moving bit does not count ONLY the area occupied by the track that is connected So I could theoretically have an 8ft long traverser of 20 tracks, and only the 8ft length x 2" taken up by the one track connected to the rest of the layout counts?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Might have been... Still, think I can save a bit of space by loosing the sleeper either side of the rail..... (Space wise my plan is a little on the tight side after putting the plan on the board at an angle and adding a 2nd treverser.) The way I see it you have the scenic area - which counts and the offstage area which has track, so the track and slidey bit offstage count, but not the framework that it slides upon - a singletrack traverser would simply be the area of the sliding bit and a double track traverser would also be the area of the sliding bit. So if I have a single locolift attached that will count towards the total and if I have two locolifts (both the same end or one at each end they both count if they are both going to be attached AT THE SAME TIME! If I have two locolifts and I use them as cassettes at one end, but only one can be connected at a time then only one counts - unless I'm completely mis-reading the rules Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 So I could theoretically have an 8ft long traverser of 20 tracks, and only the 8ft length x 2" taken up by the one track connected to the rest of the layout counts?? Spot on. and the same for the Locolifts. The reason it evolved that way last time (if I remember correctly) was that it was argued that if the rules were going to cover all possible tracks on the traverser then the builder would simply replace the traverser with a cassette system and that would not affect the operational viability in any way. Whereas any judging could take into account ingenious traversers (there were vertical ones proposed) over and above a simple cassette. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Russ (mines a pint) Posted November 22, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 22, 2009 -this is something I never fully understood from last time! - if its a single line coming in presumably only one track on the traverser/sector plate could be connected at any one time... so do the other tracks on the traverser/sector plate count? If its a double line coming in and two traverser tracks connect then they would both count, but not the rest?!?! Think thats why I went for cassettes (but wont be again!! ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 if its a single line coming in presumably only one track on the traverser/sector plate could be connected at any one time Correct (= 1 cassette) ... so do the other tracks on the traverser/sector plate count? No (still = 1 cassette) If its a double line coming in and two traverser tracks connect then they would both count, but not the rest?!?! Correct (= 2 cassettes) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_long Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Thanks Kenton I know you've explained this a number of times, so I thought I'd pass on thanks for taking the time to clear this matter up. (well its clear to me now) Kind regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 So on the diagram, the area of the grey bit would be halved when adding up your total space used? (you could get picky and start measuring more carefully than that to claw back a few extra square inches but for ease of argument essentially you'd halve that grey bit?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajdown Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 I simply drew two tracks on the sliding bit because it seemed silly to draw 6 for a rough diagram. But yes, if you have one track from layout going to an 8 road slider, one track (2" in OO?) x length counts. If you have a double track from layout going to an 8 road slider, two tracks x lengths counts. That's why my two tracks from the layout go to a Setrack point on the edge of the board, before transferring to the traverser Now understanding this properly means I can make my layout a little wider as I'm now not wasting valuable inches on a traverser table, and also can make it a few inches wider too. In fact, I think I have some 12mm MDF that should make a fairly good top surface and not even need to worry about too much bracing. Mods, as this seems to be a fairly frequently asked question, and discussed in depth, might this be a good 'sticky' post to have in this forum? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 I simply drew two tracks on the sliding bit because it seemed silly to draw 6 for a rough diagram. Yeah, I wasn't complaining, it was a very useful simple example which was why I used it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajdown Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 As I only need two or three 'full length' roads of 48", I might even make the board a T shape so I can fit in more 'short roads' for the multiple units... I need to finish building the rest of the boards first before I can work out exactly what space I need and have. Planning? Meh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam '43003' Tanner Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Tough to get my head around this off-scene malarky, but I think I'm there now. Say a casette is 24" x 3" and the board that rest's on is 3" x 18", it's only the casette that counts towards the total area. So, theoretically, having 72sq" for a casette, the other 1938sq" can be made scenic, then an additional board to support the casette's would not count towards the total area.. Or have I just ballsed up and caused mass confusion.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajdown Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 Tough to get my head around this off-scene malarky, but I think I'm there now. Say a casette is 24" x 3" and the board that rest's on is 3" x 18", it's only the casette that counts towards the total area. So, theoretically, having 72sq" for a casette, the other 1938sq" can be made scenic, then an additional board to support the casette's would not count towards the total area.. Or have I just ballsed up and caused mass confusion.. That's how I understand it now, too. If you have a 6 track wide traverser, but only one track can physically be aligned at a time to the layout, you get length x 2" (or whatever) as part of your 2010; if two tracks can be connected then 4" x length is connected. That's partly why my two tracks merge to one with a setrack point right before the board join for the traverser... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Say a casette is 24" x 3" That bit counts and the board that rest's on is 3" x 18 an additional board to support the casettes Those do not so you are correct. Just in case folk are thinking really minimal and that they can operate with a purely loco length cassette. Think about the cassette size in operational context. As that, in theory, is how it will be judged So obviously a TMD needs to be no longer than the longest loco - so an off scene cassette for a 0-4-0 is not much use if your shed is operating with Class 66 or A1 Similarly if you have a branchline terminus with a 5 coach train arriving and departing it is going to look pretty daft is the cassette can only take 1 loco length. Of course that is not a rule - just should be obvious that winning points for operation by say just running round standing coaches in a platform is probably unlikely. Though I am sure someone could think of a scenario. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam '43003' Tanner Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 I'm there now. Thank you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beardybloke Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Excellent, thanks chaps - I wanted to go for a traverser over a sector plate for mine to allow for the option of through-running at a later point if I turn my layout into a full circuit (when I have the room!) - so this means that I can fit a few extra tracks on without going over the size limitations as only two will be connected at a time... Made my day (sad, I know ) so off to buy some drawer runners after work! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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