Tim Hale Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Hi, I have an ancient kit that uses an X04 motor drive- as I want to preserve rather than radically rebuild the model, I do not really want to replace the entire chassis. However I do want to replace the venerable X04 motordrive- presumably a slim gearbox coupled to a 1420* would perform well but are there any favoured combinations of motor + gearbox that have been successfully used to update old locos? Thank you Tim *and presumably fit within the same space? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon G Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Tim, I guess that any replacement depends on why you want to replace the X04. The X04 is pretty reliable, simple to maintain and has adequate power for scale sized trains. Where it doesnt compare with modern motors is the smoothness, slow speed running and quietness. The first two of these can be overcome by replacing the original X04 (which is probably a 3 pole version as most were), with a 5 pole one. If you then use a neodymium 'Neo' magnet in place of the original one, this will improve the smoothness and slow speed running. You can also obtain 7 pole open frame motors similar to X04 which are also smooth and have good slow speed - I have obtained a slow speed of about 20 seconds per wheel revolution with one on an 0-6-0 saddle tank. It takes a bit of work to fit as it isnt a direct slot-in replacement for an X04. It is worth remembering that some of the current performance limitations you have may be due to the chassis, ie limited pickups and coarse wheels than wont run on modern finescale track etc. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollywoodfoundry Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Another point is that the 1420 (I imagine you are actually referring to the Mashima MH-1620) will not develop the same amount of power as the XO4 or its more recent versions. As pointed out by Simon, a newer 5 pole version with Neo magnets is a better option. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Hale Posted July 9, 2011 Author Share Posted July 9, 2011 Hi and thanks, I was unaware of the availability of direct replacement five pole motors with Neo Magnets existed- where and who sells them? I agree, the best option is a new chassis but sometimes, nostalgia is a factor. Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon G Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Tim, Neo magnets can be obtained from South Pole Magnets at about £9.50 for a pack of 3. 5 pole X04 replacements can be picked up occasionally from ebay - you can expect to pay up to about £15 for one in decent condition. It might be worth buying a Neo and trying it in your existing 3 pole X04, as it will improve the performance of that as well. You might decide that it is OK and save the cost of the 5 pole! If you dont want a pack of 3 Neo's, you can buy them singly for about £6 on ebay - alternatively I may have a spare knocking about, if you want to PM me. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Hale Posted July 18, 2011 Author Share Posted July 18, 2011 Thank you for the insight- Did any manufacturer ever offer a mount for the X04 to be used with Romford gears? Having read some of the comments, it might prove acceptable to use my collection of 'new' X04's and Romford gears that were removed and replaced by 1224's. I have two locos to build which have more than enough concealed room for the X04 but I do not wish to hack the frames in order to accomodate the lug n'screw fixing. The performance of my Bulleid light pacific with a traditional XO4/Romford combination is much smoother than the newer Hornby model but I have never considered using the combination in another loco until Redgate and Simon offered their wisdom on the subject. Thank you Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted July 30, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 30, 2011 5 pole X04 replacements can be picked up occasionally from ebay - you can expect to pay up to about £15 for one in decent condition. Be wary when buying a 5 pole XO4 type motor and make sure it wasn't intended for slot car racing or similar. I have one of these, bought many years ago to try as a substitute for an original Triang motor and it is another kettle of fish entirely. It is very fast and also consumes much more current than would be available in model railway applications. I also have a "normal" five pole XO4 type which looks identical, apart from the thinner gauge coil wire and is perfectly suitable for model railway use. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon G Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Be wary when buying a 5 pole XO4 type motor and make sure it wasn't intended for slot car racing or similar. I have one of these, bought many years ago to try as a substitute for an original Triang motor and it is another kettle of fish entirely. It is very fast and also consumes much more current than would be available in model railway applications. I also have a "normal" five pole XO4 type which looks identical, apart from the thinner gauge coil wire and is perfectly suitable for model railway use. Keith Well that is a new one on me! They say you learn something new every day! I guess that I have about six or seven 5 pole X04/X03 motors and all have been 'normal' speed. Possibly I have been lucky, or maybe the 'fast' ones are rare. I have seen some motors that are interchangeable between slot cars and which are also sold as "X04 replacement motors", but they will only replace an X04 if you have a adapter frame to put them in. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted August 3, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 3, 2011 Well that is a new one on me! They say you learn something new every day! I guess that I have about six or seven 5 pole X04/X03 motors and all have been 'normal' speed. Possibly I have been lucky, or maybe the 'fast' ones are rare. I have seen some motors that are interchangeable between slot cars and which are also sold as "X04 replacement motors", but they will only replace an X04 if you have a adapter frame to put them in. Simon The only difference in the motor, physically, is a second mounting hole in line with the first on the other half of the frame and the brushes are harder material. I bought it to try in a Wills kit using a Triang 0-6-0 chassis as the original was shot. It came from a model shop that did a lot of slot car spares (it might be a MRRC motor). EDIT: I have also got a slot car version of those double magnet motors you got in K's kits once upon a time, again much faster and greater current consumtion. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrn Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 I've just come across this topic so please excuse my belated post. Yes, the neo magnets are very good in X04 motors, but being only 3-pole, their slow running can be jerky. I have a Triang 0-6-0 diesel with a 7-pole motor, which ran smoother, and had improved slow speed running. The motors don't have the torque of an X04 but are still very good. However, the best single improvement I have come across is changing the gearing. I replaced the worm and gear in the diesel, a Jinty and a Britannia to give a ratio of 40:1, instead of 28:1 I think. This means that the motor revs higher at a given speed, the end result being the locos run much more evenly and realistically, instead of the standard Mach 2. With the change of gearing and the 7-pole motor in the diesel, it can absolutely crawl. Go to https://www.ultrascale.com/eshop/products/CAT015 and scroll down to the bottom of the page. Look for the abbreviations in red on the right. Here you will see gear sets to suit Triang/Hornby locos, and they also sell gear sets for 0-4-0's, Dock Shunters etc. The improvement is so good, eventually I will change the gearing (and keep the X04's) in all my locos. One last thing, as the motor revs higher at a given speed, and so needing more current, the synchrosmoke units now smoke like they should. A good clean of the X04's helps too. - Lindsay Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted January 18, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 18, 2013 Hi Lindsay A common "fudge" in the days of brass gears and worms was to replace the 2 start worm with a single start, which straight away doubles the ratio. Not sure whether the later ones with nylon gears can be changed in the same way. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossdp Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 MW Developments made the MW005 five pole direct X04 replacement motors. They come up regularly for sale on eBay. Jepson also did five pole and seven pole replacements. I think both of these motors fit in without any modification. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted January 19, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 19, 2013 Go to https://www.ultrascale.com/eshop/products/CAT015 and scroll down to the bottom of the page. Look for the abbreviations in red on the right. Here you will see gear sets to suit Triang/Hornby locos, and they also sell gear sets for 0-4-0's, Dock Shunters etc. The improvement is so good, eventually I will change the gearing (and keep the X04's) in all my locos. One last thing, as the motor revs higher at a given speed, and so needing more current, the synchrosmoke units now smoke like they should. A good clean of the X04's helps too. - Lindsay Pity they no longer sell the old ECM motor with their gearbox/gears on it. That was an excellent combination, but didn't sell well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earlswood Nob Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Hiya everyone, I had one of those ECM motors, and it was quite a neat design. However it was a very fast motor and I wasn't enamoured with it and eventually sold it. Earlswood Nob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Mawer Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 Following on this topic, I have an old K's kit GWR Bulldog. It is running on the original motor which is very basic, noisy, rough, and sticks. Any ideas for a modern, smooth, capable of slow running, easy to swap, motor? I don't want to have perform major surgery or be constructing mounts etc. I am using good old fashioned DC, with inertia controllers. Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted December 24, 2013 Share Posted December 24, 2013 Following on this topic, I have an old K's kit GWR Bulldog. It is running on the original motor which is very basic, noisy, rough, and sticks. Any ideas for a modern, smooth, capable of slow running, easy to swap, motor? I don't want to have perform major surgery or be constructing mounts etc. I am using good old fashioned DC, with inertia controllers. Rich Rich Buy one of the older Mk 1 or 2 motors s/h off Ebay a d if you have space fit a flywheel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Mawer Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 Rich Buy one of the older Mk 1 or 2 motors s/h off Ebay a d if you have space fit a flywheel Hi. Thanks for that. I hadn't thought of a fly wheel. That will no doubt smooth out any stuttering, but won't reduce the noise nor improve the slow running. I am pretty sure it's a mk1 motor anyway. I was really hoping there would be a fairly easy, modern, alternative motor that would slot in. Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 Hi. Thanks for that. I hadn't thought of a fly wheel. That will no doubt smooth out any stuttering, but won't reduce the noise nor improve the slow running. I am pretty sure it's a mk1 motor anyway. I was really hoping there would be a fairly easy, modern, alternative motor that would slot in. Rich I would go for a Mashima and a Highlevel or other gearbox (not motor mount) can still use a flywheel though. Markits still do what was the old Romford gears, but they also do what seem to be finer gears. Anyone had experience with them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thane of Fife Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Happy New Year to all There are various direct replacements for a XO4. You still can still find MW005 motors on Ebay occasionally. They run a lot smoother than the original XO4. However, a Mashima fitted to High Level gearbox is very smooth and quiet. I find the Mashima/HighLevel combination even quieter than Portescap motors as the Portescaps can make a noise as the gearbox wears. Thane of Fife Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I like X04s ok they are crude, but with a decent magnet, especially a super neo version, and a half decent controller, like a H and M variable transformer they just go on and on, unlike the row of dead Bachman motors which populate my scrap box. The 5 pole MW005 is quite nasty, I bought several new ones in the 1980s and they love to rev but lack torque which becomes critical when used with X04 gears, they are not as bad with romford gears but I find the high revs irritating. I stuck with triang gears until I got fed up in the end, withmy MW005s sensitivity to even slight gradient changes and I put 3 pole X04 armatures and Triang worms in, as straight changes back to an X04 were impractical as their short brushes give more clearance when putting cast bodies on Triang chassis. There are three basic types of armature which fit the X04, one 5 pole and two types of 3 pole; those with brushes in line with the pole pieces, and those at 90 degrees. The five pole armatures run in both the Triang/ Scalextric X04 shape motors, Romford Phantoms, Hornby Dublo and Wrenn 1/2 “ motors on the one hand and the long K's motors and power bogies and scalextric power sled on the other subject only to shortening the armature shaft to suit. Not all the three pole armatures interchange, the relationship between the commutator and armature is different depending whether the brushes are in line with the pole pieces, on the K's and power bogies, and scalextric power sled, or at right angles, as in the X04. The power sled armature won't run in an X04, It is slightly shorter than an X04 armature as it has a spur gear not a worm as standard, but more important the commutator is skewed through 60 or is it 45 degrees the power sled has brushes in line with the pole pieces so it won’t run in an X04 frame with X04 brush gear. There is an older Scalextric armature and identical Turntable and pre 1961 Transcontinental one of the same short length which will run in an X04 frame, but that said unless it comes in a working motor I would avoid the short armature shaft version. The Airfix 14XX and 61XX 5 pole motor uses a smaller armature shaft and bearings and is incompatible with the X04 bearings. The Hornby Dublo/ Wrenn 1/2“ motor needs thrust bearings at the ends of the motor shaft and cannot be used in an X04 frame neither can the Grafar 94XX and 61XX armature for a similar reason. I am told Trix armatures fit X04 but have never tried them. The X03 is the same but cruder with a coarse plastic worm, and benefits from X04 oil retaining felts, and indeed from an X04 brass worm but is to all intents and purposes the same. For my Dean Goods I used a K's double ended motor with a Triang Dock shunter armatures which increased the torque considerably, at the expense of some smoothness. The five pole K's armature with the armature shaft suitably shortened then found its way into a Hornby Dublo 1/2“ motor in a Wrenn 0-6-0 T chassis under a hacked about Pannier body as a 64XX and that runs exceptionally smoothly and has been my station pilot for the last 20+ years, outlasting several attempts to replace it with Mainline or Bachmann panniers. Another Pannier has an X04 with a Romford Phantom 5 pole armature, the Phantom's plastic frame disintegrated, and the armature was a direct fit, and that is very smooth and quiet and almost as powerful as an X04. Super Neo magnets certainly improve an X04, more power, less current, less heating, they transform a tired one, (my super neos cane from dead computers) and of course the X04 is super easy to adapt for DCC unlike some more recent offerings, in fact I am part way through putting an X04 powered chassis under a Bachmann Pannier as I write, as I tired of failed armatures and slipped driving wheels the result of shunting 20 wagon rakes of Hornby Dublo wagons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 I just found a scalextric power sled with plastic contrate and pinion and the armature shaft is identical in length to the X04 but the commutator is skewed 90 degres as it has its brushes in line with the pole pieces held by a strange plastic clip in brush holder, needless to say this armature will not work in an X04 either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon G Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 (my super neos cane from dead computers) Interesting! What part of the computers did you manage to salvage Neo magnets from? I have never noticed any in the computers I have dismantled. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Ref Simon G they came from CD or CDRW drives, I don't know the technical terms but the "head" for want of a better word which traverses across the CD, powered by a motor driving a long threaded shaft has at least two small very powerful magnets which must be super neo, one each side of a glass "Eye" though I seem to remember some have two each sde The whole head is magnetic and I saved several of these magnets while actually saving the various motors and gears etc. They are probably too small for practical use, if only because you need to cannibalise too many CD drives. but they certainly transform the tired old H/D and X04 motors I tried them in. I carefully assemble a "stack" to fit between the pole pieces in place of the standard magnet, they are much smaller than the standard magnet but far more powerful. I suppose you could make a permanent job if you smeared Araldite around them to hold them but I was just experimenting. Plan B is to find some larger ones. Plan C to try just two with an "Iron" spacer between, one made from old pole pieces from long dead motors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Easier to remag the old ones with the tool I still have! Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham456 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 (Quote) The 5 pole MW005 is quite nasty, I bought several new ones in the 1980s and they love to rev but lack torque which becomes critical when used with X04 gears, they are not as bad with romford gears but I find the high revs irritating. I stuck with triang gears until I got fed up in the end, withmy MW005s sensitivity to even slight gradient changes and I put 3 pole X04 armatures and Triang worms in, as straight changes back to an X04 were impractical as their short brushes give more clearance Interesting this is the opposite of what I have found with MW005 motors I kept the triang gearing when swopping to the MW005 and I found the top speed reduced can't really comment about a torque reduction as I don't have any hills or did before and after haulage trials I have heard on this site before that there are two types of MW motors, one for scalextrics racing and one for trains , all the ones I bought came in boxes with leaflets in stating they were made to suit model train locos, the comment about the short brushes giving more clearance is another clue we had different motor,s from each other as the MW brushes were deeper making the motors fatter, making quite often the need to open up the width to get the motor in a hole the X04 fitted in , where you found you had more clearance unless your on about the brush mounting being under slung rather than on top the keeper plate Very interesting post from you anyway on motors I didn't know half of that about armature swopping Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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