E.R.T.M.S.

[big jim]

Thanks Simon your lengthy reply actually made sense to me when reading it step by step

 

And yes, there is a retain info button when changing ends now which is a huge improvement 

 

my only concern is regard the length of the train needing to be known, that’s going to be a bit if a pain given the train length could vary depending on how the train is cut and added to etc 

 

Johnathans question is a good one too 

 

regards the Cambrian in its current guise, maybe you can answer this question…..

 

the line is shut between shrewsbury and Machynlleth this week for a relaying job in Newtown which is using colas 56s (non ertms fitted) but passenger trains are still running beyond maccynlleth, I was under the impression it was all or nothing when the ERTMS is switched off, the whole line is turned off, it certainly was when I’ve worked 66s down there, how are the passenger trains able to still run? 

[St. Simon]

17 hours ago, big jim said:

my only concern is regard the length of the train needing to be known, that’s going to be a bit if a pain given the train length could vary depending on how the train is cut and added to etc.

 
Hi Jim,

 

You can change the length of a train at any point when stationary as long as the EVC supports Flexible Train Data Entry, which is standard now.

 

So in yard, when you attach or detach vehicles you would do so normally and then you would update the train data before moving off. This should be just a few presses of menus and shouldn’t take long.

 

 

17 hours ago, big jim said:

regards the Cambrian in its current guise, maybe you can answer this question…..

 

the line is shut between shrewsbury and Machynlleth this week for a relaying job in Newtown which is using colas 56s (non ertms fitted) but passenger trains are still running beyond maccynlleth, I was under the impression it was all or nothing when the ERTMS is switched off, the whole line is turned off, it certainly was when I’ve worked 66s down there, how are the passenger trains able to still run? 

 

Hmm, I presume that the Class 56s will remain within the possession when passenger trains are running and then run to / from the rest of the network outside of the passenger services. The 56s can run within the possession quite happily in the same way that a non-fitted RRV or hand trolley can.

 

At a technical level, you can run a non-fitted train on a fitted railway quite happily, neither system will throw a complete wobbly*. The issue is that a non-fitted train will not have any form of train protection, compromising the safety of all the trains on the line (regardless of whether they are fitted or not).

 

If you are running a non-fitted train on a fitted line with no signals, you would have to do everything as on sight, you’ll still get the protection of an interlocked route, just you won’t be able to clear the ‘signal’

 

Now, the Cambrian system might have some form of technical limitations on it that means you have to switch it off, but I can’t think what that would be.

 

*The control system will throw a small wobbly as it will only see the non-fitted train as a moving train detection failure and that will result in ‘out of sequence’ and SPAD alarms being activated in the control system. But these can be suppressed by a Box TO)

 

Simon

Edited May 13, 2023 by St. Simon

[Steadfast]

7 hours ago, St. Simon said:

 

You can change the length of a train at any point when stationary as long as the EVC supports Flexible Train Data Entry, which is standard now.

 

So in yard, when you attach or detach vehicles you would do so normally and then you would update the train data before moving off. This should be just a few presses of menus and shouldn’t take long.

So when shunting you need to continuously update the computer for each move? Not talking about attaching loco to a train, but proper shunting say I've got 15 Falcon on, knock out a cripple, pick up some Salmon, drop those off to another road, lose 10 of the Falcon then pick up 5 autos.

 

Our yards most moves need a GPL to be clear to gain access to a headshunt so presumably would interface ERTMS when it replaces it. Hopefully by the time it reaches the darkest depths of the Western region it'll all be Ts crossed and Is dotted.

 

Just had another thouhht, presumably lines worked by token or staff will no longer need them, ERTMS granting access instead?

 

Jo

[St. Simon]

8 hours ago, Steadfast said:

So when shunting you need to continuously update the computer for each move? Not talking about attaching loco to a train, but proper shunting say I've got 15 Falcon on, knock out a cripple, pick up some Salmon, drop those off to another road, lose 10 of the Falcon then pick up 5 autos.

Hi Jo,

 

No, you wouldn’t have to change the length for shunting yards.

 

In the preferred format of Yards etc. operating in Level ‘NTC-SN’, then a yard at Westbury is operated exactly the way it is now, with only arriving and departing trains being different. The E.T.C.S.would not be supervising you.

 

If the yard is operated under E.T.C.S. Level 2, then you would be in Shunting (SH) Mode and this does not require train data, so no need to update the train length (nor do you need a Movement Authority if you are within the shunting area). In this mode the E.T.C.S. is only supervising you up to a shunting max speed (I think around 15mph) and ensures you don’t go out of the shunting area in shunt mode.

 

So, when shunting a yard the only time you’d need to update the train length is when preparing for departure.

 

8 hours ago, Steadfast said:

Our yards most moves need a GPL to be clear to gain access to a headshunt so presumably would interface ERTMS when it replaces 

 

Yes, if the yard is in Level ‘NTC-SN’ you would still get a PL into the headshunt and you wouldn’t need to transition to E.T.C.S. (or be fitted even).

 

If the transition for mainline trains is via Level 1 Launch, the L1 LTO balise group would be switchable and not give the transition order to a train into the headshunt. If the transition was a full running one, the train to the headshunt (if fitted) would be told to connect to the RBC as it passes the yard exit signal and effectively begin the transition, but there would be a RBC termination balise at the entrance to the headshunt that would stop the transition before the driver would notice anything has happened.

 

If the yard is operating in Level 2, you would get a shunt route with a SH or OS mode profile into the headshunt.

 

It is worth noting that the E.T.C.S. Shunt entry marker installed on the Cambrian will not be installed anywhere else.

 

9 hours ago, Steadfast said: 

Just had another thouhht, presumably lines worked by token or staff will no longer need them, ERTMS granting access instead?

Yes, they would be converted to Track Circuit Block using Axle Counters, in fact that would probably happen prior to E.T.C.S. being implemented.

 

Simon

[Steadfast]

Thanks @St. Simonthat's a lot to digest, no doubt will all slot into place as deployment becomes closer. 

 

Jo

[Shed]

What systems does Crossrail use?

[St. Simon]

18 hours ago, Shed said:

What systems does Crossrail use?

Hi,

 

It’s slightly complicated!

 

The Lineside equipment is as follows:

 

• Reading to Stockley Junction = Conventional colour light with AWS / TPWS*.

 

• Heathrow to Stockley Junction = E.T.C.S. Level 2 Overlay (but could be standard E.T.C.S. if BAA were happy to pay for the signals to be removed).

 

• Stockley to Ladbroke Grove = Currently conventional colour light with AWS / TPWS, but will be converted to E.T.C.S. Level 2 Overlay.

 

• Ladbroke Grove to Abbey Wood / Stratford Portal (Central Operating Section or COS) = Communications Based Train Control (C.B.T.C.) with Automatic Train Operation (A.T.O.)

 

• Stratford Portal to Sheffield = Conventional colour light with AWS / TPWS.

 

*A.T.P. is fitted to the relief lines between Paddington and Stockley, and the main lines out of Paddington to Bristol, but is not used by the Class 345s.

 

However with the on-board, the Class 345s are technically always operating using E.T.C.S. regardless of the lineside equipment. When the train is running under conventional colour lights or under C.B.T.C., the trains is operating in E.T.C.S. ‘Level National Train Control’ or ‘L-NTC’ using Special Transmission Modules.

 

Between Reading and Stockley & Stratford to Shenfield, the E.T.C.S. Driver Machine Interface (D.M.I.) will only display a speedometer and a AWS Sunflower. The driver will drive according to the aspects and speed displayed at the lineside and the train protection will limited to what is provided by AWS / TPWS (i.e. limited)

 

On the Heathrow Branch and, once commissioned, between Stockley and Ladbroke Grove, the D.M.I. will display E.T.C.S. graphics and indications, with the driver driving to the movement authority and speeds displayed on the screen (which will match the lineside signal aspects and signs) and the train will be protected by full Automatic Train Protection (A.T.P.)

 

When in the COS, under C.B.T.C., the D.M.I. will display E.T.C.S. graphics and indications, with the driver / A.T.O. driving to the movement authority and speeds displayed on the screen and train will be protected by full A.T.P.. The difference between this and pure E.T.C.S. above is the train is signalled under C.B.T.C. signalling principles.

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

Simon

Edited July 24, 2023 by St. Simon

[ess1uk]

14 hours ago, Shed said:

What systems does Crossrail use?

Rail Engineer

another useful explanation 

[Shed]

9 hours ago, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

It’s slightly complicated!

 

The Lineside equipment is as follows:

 

- Reading to Stockley Junction = Conventional colour light with AWS / TPWS*.

 

- Heathrow to Stockley Junction = E.T.C.S. Level 2 Overlay (but could be standard E.T.C.S. if BAA were happy to pay for the signals to be removed).

 

- Stockley to Ladbroke Grove = Currently conventional colour light with AWS / TPWS, but will be converted to E.T.C.S. Level 2 Overlay.

 

- Ladbroke Grove to Abbey Wood / Stratford Portal (Central Operating Section or COS) = Communications Based Train Control (C.B.T.C.) with Automatic Train Operation (A.T.O.)

 

- Stratford Portal to Sheffield = Conventional colour light with AWS / TPWS.

 

*A.T.P. is fitted to the relief lines between Paddington and Stockley, and the main lines out of Paddington to Bristol, but is not used by the Class 345s.

 

However with the on-board, the Class 345s are technically always operating using E.T.C.S. regardless of the lineside equipment. When the train is running under conventional colour lights or under C.B.T.C., the trains is operating in E.T.C.S. ‘Level National Train Control’ or ‘L-NTC’ using Special Transmission Modules.

 

Between Reading and Stockley & Stratford to Shenfield, the E.T.C.S. Driver Machine Interface (D.M.I.) will only display a speedometer and a AWS Sunflower. The driver will drive according to the aspects and speed displayed at the lineside and the train protection will limited to what is provided by AWS / TPWS (i.e. limited)

 

On the Heathrow Branch and, once commissioned, between Stockley and Ladbroke Grove, the D.M.I. will display E.T.C.S. graphics and indications, with the driver driving to the movement authority and speeds displayed on the screen (which will match the lineside signal aspects and signs) and the train will be protected by full Automatic Train Protection (A.T.P.)

 

When in the COS, under C.B.T.C., the D.M.I. will display E.T.C.S. graphics and indications, with the driver / A.T.O. driving to the movement authority and speeds displayed on the screen and train will be protected by full A.T.P.. The difference between this and pure E.T.C.S. above is the train is signalled under C.B.T.C. signalling principles.

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

Simon

In the COS does the CBTC use IEEE 802.11 (Wi-Fi)?

[St. Simon]

1 hour ago, Shed said:

In the COS does the CBTC use IEEE 802.11 (Wi-Fi)?

 

No Idea!

 

Simon

[ess1uk]

On 24/07/2023 at 08:58, Shed said:

In the COS does the CBTC use IEEE 802.11 (Wi-Fi)?

Yes

[ess1uk]

On 10/04/2023 at 12:24, St. Simon said:

 

Hi,

 

I can't say exactly what, but there will be more news on that in the next few weeks we believe.

 

Simon

It’s 149 days until Xmas.

how’s the GWML going?

[St. Simon]

11 hours ago, ess1uk said:

It’s 149 days until Xmas.

how’s the GWML going?

Hi,

 

I know roughly what is happening, but there’s officially no update on the progress.

 

Simon

[ess1uk]

9 hours ago, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

I know roughly what is happening, but there’s officially no update on the progress.

 

Simon

Yet on the ECML there is some sort of press release every time they pick up a tool bag

[St. Simon]

12 hours ago, ess1uk said:

Yet on the ECML there is some sort of press release every time they pick up a tool bag

Hi,

 

Yes, but most the GWML stuff is now in the boring testing and validation stages, so is really isn’t worthy of a press release!

 

Simon

[ess1uk]

On 30/07/2023 at 19:38, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

Yes, but most the GWML stuff is now in the boring testing and validation stages, so is really isn’t worthy of a press release!

 

Simon

When do you expect EIS?

[St. Simon]

On 31/07/2023 at 20:31, ess1uk said:

When do you expect EIS?

 

Hi,

 

I believe the current date for Ealing Broadway to Stockley is November, but this could change.

 

Simon

[ess1uk]

On 02/08/2023 at 13:05, St. Simon said:

 

Hi,

 

I believe the current date for Ealing Broadway to Stockley is November, but this could change.

 

Simon

still working to this date?

[St. Simon]

5 hours ago, ess1uk said:

still working to this date?

 

Hi,

 

Yes, end of November, just had an update today about progress!

Simon

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

I believe that the E.T.C.S. Level 2 Overlay between Ealing Broadway and Heathrow Junction (to connect with the existing Level 2 Overlay on the Heathrow Branch) was commissioned over the weekend and is in operation.

 

Currently this will be extent of E.T.C.S. on Western for a long time.

 

Simon

[ess1uk]

20 hours ago, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

I believe that the E.T.C.S. Level 2 Overlay between Ealing Broadway and Heathrow Junction (to connect with the existing Level 2 Overlay on the Heathrow Branch) was commissioned over the weekend and is in operation.

 

Currently this will be extent of E.T.C.S. on Western for a long time.

 

Simon

Is that because there is no major resignalling for a while?

[St. Simon]

5 hours ago, ess1uk said:

Is that because there is no major resignalling for a while?

 

I believe partly that there are no re-signallings on the cards west of Reading, and partly to let the layout east of Ealing Broadway (i.e. Old Oak Common) to settle down to a stable configuration after HS2 finishes.

 

Simon

[ess1uk]

4 hours ago, St. Simon said:

 

I believe partly that there are no re-signallings on the cards west of Reading, and partly to let the layout east of Ealing Broadway (i.e. Old Oak Common) to settle down to a stable configuration after HS2 finishes.

 

Simon

Makes sense 

[Steadfast]

A couple of questions regarding the overlay ETCS.

1) does the train still show in the signal berths (is that the right name?) of the traditional signalling systems, so would show on TVSC's screens, Opentraintimes.com etc?

 

2) what does the driver see? Are the colour light signals still lit, but just ignored, or are the signals black? Presumably the AWS and TPWS don't trip as they're inactive with the train switched to another system.

 

Thanks in advance for any answers, it's interesting to see how it will come into being with the two systems side by side.

 

Jo

[St. Simon]

7 hours ago, Steadfast said:

A couple of questions regarding the overlay ETCS.

1) does the train still show in the signal berths (is that the right name?) of the traditional signalling systems, so would show on TVSC's screens, Opentraintimes.com etc?

 

2) what does the driver see? Are the colour light signals still lit, but just ignored, or are the signals black? Presumably the AWS and TPWS don't trip as they're inactive with the train switched to another system.

 

Thanks in advance for any answers, it's interesting to see how it will come into being with the two systems side by side.

 

Jo

 

Hi Jo,

 

1) Yes, the train describer, train detection etc works in exactly the same way as in a colour light system, so an ETCS train will show up on Open Train Times, TVSC screens, staff info screens. This would be the same for a no-signals arrangement (the Cambrian is on Open Train Times if you are interested!)

 

2) The colour lights are still lit and show the same aspects as they would under conventional signalling, with the movement authority displayed on the DMI would correspond with the signal aspect (i.e., the end of MA on the DMI would be at the same position as a red aspect). The only difference you will see on the lineside signals is that an approach control / release on junction signals or call-on is inhibited (i.e, there wouldn't be any) when a train is approaching in ETCS with a full supervision movement authority.

 

Simon