Hornby Saint - how bad was it?

[Steamport Southport]

Yes. I'm afraid it would have to be a top range model for me to buy one. If somebody made a straight framed Lady or a Scott, I would buy a couple. Otherwise I'll keep an eye out for the Westward kits.

 

I've already got a SEF one in the kit pile. Which is one of the reasons I was looking in this thread.

 

The suitable names however are a bit boring as I alluded to earlier in the thread. It's mostly Saints and Courts. I've currently got it down to 2940 Dorney Court although it needs a different tender. The photo I found has a smaller Collett 3500 gallon tender still with G crest W on it in 1951. Photo in Great Western Saint Class by L Waters if anyone is curious.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Western-Locomotives-Locomotive-Portfolios/dp/1473850347/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=9781473850354&linkCode=qs&qid=1604508234&s=books&sr=1-1

 

 

Jason

[robmcg]

11 hours ago, No Decorum said:

I’d much rather Hornby did a proper job on the chassis – brass bearings and five-pole, skew-wound motor. As has often been observed, these days, no use is made of parts of previous productions. New toolings start from scratch.

 

Quite so but the Hornby Hall is a fine chassis regardless, and with my photo-editing skills it didn't take much to combine photos of a Star and Hall to make very nice illustrations of a Saint...

 

If things go well with current crop of Eastern engines this year and next, and the books are looking good for Hornby God bless 'em we might just get something like this;

 

pictures edited will remove if required , as sometimes happens, apologies for offence caused.

 

 

 

Cheers

[No Decorum]

8 hours ago, robmcg said:

 

Quite so but the Hornby Hall is a fine chassis regardless, and with my photo-editing skills it didn't take much to combine photos of a Star and Hall to make very nice illustrations of a Saint...

 

If things go well with current crop of Eastern engines this year and next, and the books are looking good for Hornby God bless 'em we might just get something like this;

 

pictures edited will remove if required , as sometimes happens, apologies for offence caused.

 

 

 

Cheers

If you have to remove those pictures, please sent them to Simon Kohler. If nothing has happened in a year or so, poke him in the ribs.

[1466]

No Decorum , I apologise that I wasn’t clearer when referring to the R3170 chassis . My one did have brass bearings when I converted it to EM gauge last year .It also has a can motor but whether it is 3 or 5 pole , I can’t say . It does run and pull well, though and was a bargain from Hattons at around £80 .

Given the large commonality between Halls and Saints, model and prototype, I would happily buy a Saint (or2) based upon the recent R3170 chassis and mechanicals . Some regard it as one of Hornby’s best .I regret the confusion that may have arisen with the much older Hornby Hall and Saints .

Best wishes 

Ken 

 

[No Decorum]

1 hour ago, 1466 said:

No Decorum , I apologise that I wasn’t clearer when referring to the R3170 chassis . My one did have brass bearings when I converted it to EM gauge last year .It also has a can motor but whether it is 3 or 5 pole , I can’t say . It does run and pull well, though and was a bargain from Hattons at around £80 .

Given the large commonality between Halls and Saints, model and prototype, I would happily buy a Saint (or2) based upon the recent R3170 chassis and mechanicals . Some regard it as one of Hornby’s best .I regret the confusion that may have arisen with the much older Hornby Hall and Saints .

Best wishes 

Ken 

 

No need to apologise but thank you for the clarification. 

[robmcg]

What I like about Saints is that there is an apocryphal story of a Saint reaching 105mph in the early 1900s with none other than a William Stanier on board a observer.....    

[DCB]

On 05/11/2020 at 19:10, robmcg said:

What I like about Saints is that there is an apocryphal story of a Saint reaching 105mph in the early 1900s with none other than a William Stanier on board a observer.....    

At least 120 often 130 after a few pints.   The Saint is an awkward beast to model.  The old Hornby Dublo Castle and Triang B1 /A3 Chassis were 7ft +7ft  (28mm +28mm)  The Saint/Hall/Castle/County/Manor/43XX/51XX chassis was 7ft+7ft9" (28mm + 31mm) which is  believe te same as the Airfix etc Castle, County, 61XX and Mainline/ Bachmann Manor 43XX.

Anything designed around the H/D or Triang Chassis will end up 3mm short around the firebox,  Triang Hall, Hornby Saint etc..   The Wills Saint has the correct splasher spacing and when fitted to the Triang chassis the wheels don't line up with the splashers. 

The Stars (after the first,) had a lower running plate and deeper splashers than the Saints as did the Castles, while the Saints retained the higher running plate.

There are at least 3 different Saint front ends, Straight Frame, Curved frame and Outside steam pipe front end which seems to have the curve down start further forward  giving a different more muscular masculine curve to the non outside etc...

  The Boiler is the same as the Grange,  they were swapped at overhaul, but the Cab is noticeably shorter,

Triang- Hornby used the Hall body and cab with the roof shortened and side profile changed but the cab  still over length.

To be honest the Triang Hall with shortened smokebox and re positioned front end curve, and the Airfix City of Truro cab fitted instead of the side window and body shortened at the back made quite a good Saint by 1970s standards.  Better than the Hornby Saint.  The Triang wheels were the same size as the current Hornby Castle, the later tyres fit the earlier wheel , 25mm 6ft 3" for 6ft  8.5" and had a really big crank throw, very Saint Like.

You can spend a lot of money but its a lot of work to make a convincing Saint especially that large crank throw 27mm driver unique in the UK apart from County and County Tanks, and lowering the boiler vis a vis the running plate, or raising it if you start with a Star.   Even then a 1950 outside steam pipe loco looks very different to a 1910 one without even touching on straight frames and lever vs screw reverse.

No one models GWR 1905 -23 because they used BR Green for the locos and BR Maroon ish for the coaches, Boring. 

My quick and nasty Hornby Saint bodge under bodgery as I write, has the Saint body with shortened smokebox and the front end curved frame drop cut back so the chopped off bit goes under the running plate to deepen the drop and the cab shortened and so far it has a B1 or A3 chassis with 27mm wheels.

Like I said its a bodge and it may never actually get to run, unless I go modern image and call it Lady of Quality...

Edited November 7, 2020 by DavidCBroad

[The Johnster]

The Saint boiler was the no.1, and was thus able to be swapped with Halls, Stars, 28xx/2884, as well as Granges. 

[Steamport Southport]

The first Hall was 4900 Saint Martin so I think the clue is in the name.

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrw2184.htm

[DCB]

4900 was non standard as it used Saint cylinders which put the boiler centre line a coupe of inches lower than the other Halls, the smokebox and boiler rested on the cylinders on these locos.  Churchward designed the Saints cylinders so they incorporated the smokebox saddle and both right and left hand were identical reducing the number of patterns and parts required, but it meant the cylinders had to be horizontal.   Why they lowered the running plate on the Stars compared to the Saints I cannot fathom, The first Star 4000 (with Scissors valve gear) had the Saint height  running plate  and even retained ts higher running plate when it became a Castle and was in my opinion the best looking Castle because of it.

Edited November 6, 2020 by DavidCBroad

[Billystanier]

16 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

4900 was non standard as it used Saint cylinders which put the boiler centre line a coupe of inches lower than the other Halls, the smokebox and boiler rested on the cylinders on these locos.  Churchward designed the Saints cylinders so they incorporated the smokebox saddle and both right and left hand were identical reducing the number of patterns and parts required, but it meant the cylinders had to be horizontal.   Why they lowered the running plate on the Stars compared to the Saints I cannot fathom, 4000 retained ts higher running plate when it became a Castle and was in my opinion the best looking Castle because of it.

You know, I’ve never noticed that about the 4000 rebuild before. Learn something new every day on here.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Billystanier
Typo

[Coach bogie]

4900 Saint Martin as a hall also lacked outside steam pipes until the cylinders were renewed.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[The Johnster]

This hits on a potential problem when you are converting a model of one Churchwardian GW loco to another one; the relationship of the cylinders’ position to the boiler/firebox/smokebox assembly is constant, because they are bolted to the smokebox saddle/half cylinder casting in the same way on each, if that makes sense.  
 

Oh, goody, I hear you all exclaim, standardisation making our lives easier, but in this case it does the opposite.  Because buffer height is a set standard and the loco must conform to it, the buffer beam has to be ballpark same height on all of them, so when you alter the driving wheel diameter, the boiler assembly ‘sits’ differently in relation to the running plate.  So, when you rebuild Saint Martin into 4900, the pitch of the boiler drops by the difference in driving wheel diameter, 4.25”.  When you make a Grange version, it drops another 2”.  All GW locos are the same except when they are different.  

[Steamport Southport]

But it's like the old saying - to get there I would start from here

 

Better ways of doing things IMO.

 

[DCB]

1 minute ago, The Johnster said:

This hits on a potential problem when you are converting a model of one Churchwardian GW loco to another one; the relationship of the cylinders’ position to the boiler/firebox/smokebox assembly is constant, because they are bolted to the smokebox saddle/half cylinder casting in the same way on each, if that makes sense.  
 

Oh, goody, I hear you all exclaim, standardisation making our lives easier, but in this case it does the opposite.  Because buffer height is a set standard and the loco must conform to it, the buffer beam has to be ballpark same height on all of them, so when you alter the driving wheel diameter, the boiler assembly ‘sits’ differently in relation to the running plate.  So, when you rebuild Saint Martin into 4900, the pitch of the boiler drops by the difference in driving wheel diameter, 4.25”.  When you make a Grange version, it drops another 2”.  All GW locos are the same except when they are different.  

 

Its worse than that,  A lot of drawings assume the front buffer beams were standard whereas they actually varied the 51XX Star Castle one being much shallower than the Saint/  Hall / County / Manor / Grange one.   The deep one allowed the buffers to be raised 6" if 5ft 8 wheels were fitted instead of 6ft 8. Collett mucked it up with the 6ft wheel Halls but kept the deep buffer beams, and kept them for the Manor and Grange and Hawkesworth Hall/ County.  

 

 

On 05/11/2020 at 00:50, robmcg said:

 

Quite so but the Hornby Hall is a fine chassis regardless, and with my photo-editing skills it didn't take much to combine photos of a Star and Hall to make very nice illustrations of a Saint...

 

If things go well with current crop of Eastern engines this year and next, and the books are looking good for Hornby God bless 'em we might just get something like this;

 

pictures edited will remove if required , as sometimes happens, apologies for offence caused.

 

Cheers

Looks good but to be totally nit picky the running plate is too low and the frame drop curves too shallow for a Saint The Cylinder centres were 3ft 6" on a Saint 2.5 inches above the wheel centre line and almost dead in line with the buffers

[Coach bogie]

There is a Hornby conversion to Atlantic here.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-KIT-BUILT-GWR-4-4-2-CHURCHWOOD-2900-CLASS-LOCOMOTIVE-2681-IVANHOE-nx/363169143795?hash=item548e915bf3:g:RD8AAOSw4g5fpS0q

 

Mike Wiltshire

[No Decorum]

On 07/11/2020 at 08:00, Coach bogie said:

There is a Hornby conversion to Atlantic here.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-KIT-BUILT-GWR-4-4-2-CHURCHWOOD-2900-CLASS-LOCOMOTIVE-2681-IVANHOE-nx/363169143795?hash=item548e915bf3:g:RD8AAOSw4g5fpS0q

 

Mike Wiltshire

Churchwood? That hardly inspires faith in the project, does it?

[lofty1966]

I'm currently bodging a couple of them (hopefully) to reasonable success. 

I picked up a Crownline conversion kit last year with almost enough parts to make a straight frame and curved frame version. 

Turns out the kit wasn't "complete" so had to raid spare parts bin and scratch build. 

First the straight frame is on the awful Hornby offering. 

The curved frame after reading some info here, (thanx peeps)

Is a Grange boiler with Castle frames.

Lots of fun!

[Corbs]

On 14/11/2020 at 15:29, lofty1966 said:

I'm currently bodging a couple of them (hopefully) to reasonable success. 

I picked up a Crownline conversion kit last year with almost enough parts to make a straight frame and curved frame version. 

Turns out the kit wasn't "complete" so had to raid spare parts bin and scratch build. 

First the straight frame is on the awful Hornby offering. 

The curved frame after reading some info here, (thanx peeps)

Is a Grange boiler with Castle frames.

Lots of fun!

Hello Lofty,

 

How did you get on with these?

A lot of you will have already seen this but thought it relevant to the thread - I recently bodged together an approximation of a Saint from a Castle, a 28xx and a Hall.

 

A lot of imperfections but hope to make another soon.

 

[lofty1966]

Hi Mr Corbs.

I haven't finished them.

I got distracted <oh, squirrel>

and they lurk in a box, somewhere, with a million other part started "projects".

I am ashamed.....

 

[Pmorgancym]

Saint and County are obvious holes in the GWR range to be plugged

[Corbs]

22 hours ago, lofty1966 said:

Hi Mr Corbs.

I haven't finished them.

I got distracted <oh, squirrel>

and they lurk in a box, somewhere, with a million other part started "projects".

I am ashamed.....

 

 

I know that feeling!

[rogerzilla]

On 23/10/2022 at 13:34, Pmorgancym said:

Saint and County are obvious holes in the GWR range to be plugged

A GWR Castle would be nice!  They're good at churning out BR ones, but try and find a GWR one without the nasty ringfield motor (for which you can't get brushes now - they are much shorter than normal).

[kandc_au]

Remotor with the kit (computer motor) that is available!
Available on ebay.
Khris

[Steamport Southport]

Or get rid of the SB number and change the logo on the tender?

 

 

Jason