Did these wagons have cross rodding to connect the brake gear on each side ?

[brian777999]

I am building the Parkside Dundas PC18 kit : LNER/ LMS 21 ton twin bolster wagon. Did these wagons have cross rodding connecting the brake gear on one side with the other side. I have looked at many photos and I think that it did but wagon photos are usually a bit too dark in the underframe area to be sure.

 

Why did one side of the brake gear have the extra small Vee hanger and the cranked lever but the other side did not ?

 

Kit question : '' The coupling hook and the small triangular piece mentioned below are attached to the bottom of the solebar.''

 

'They are not mentioned below ! What is this small triangular piece and where does it go ?

[Poor Old Bruce]

The simple answer, looking at PD's web site, is 'Yes', they did have a rod between the main V hangers. The smaller V hanger is fitted on one side only and reverses the action of the brake handle in an alternative (heavier duty) to the Morton clutch on, say, 16T Mineral Wagons. The Bolster Wagons would have four brake blocks applied and the longer handle could apply a bit more pressure. The arrangment was similar to that used on 21T Minerals.

[Fat Controller]

I seem to remember that the small triangular piece fits flush against the small V-hanger, and acts as a spacer between it and the brake lever.

[brian777999]

I seem to remember that the small triangular piece fits flush against the small V-hanger, and acts as a spacer between it and the brake lever.

 

It is strange that they do not mention it in the instructions or tell you where it goes ? Does it point up or down ?

[Fat Controller]

 

It is strange that they do not mention it in the instructions or tell you where it goes ? Does it point up or down ?

IIRC, its apex is the same as that of the V-hanger- i.e., it points downwards.

[Kenton]

 

 

It is strange that they do not mention it in the instructions or tell you where it goes ?

Not strange - just sadly typical of many kit instructions, prob\ably written by someone who either has not built the kit or more often is so familiar with the kit that they miss out some of the essential instructions. Often assuming far more knowledge of the kit builder in the prototype than is usually there.

 

Still at least you had the part provided in the kit and were able to seek advice. In some "kits" the part you do not know about is simply missing.

[brian777999]

More problems with the brake gear on this kit :

 

I was about to install the brake shoes/push rod assembly when I noticed that installing them with the detail facing outwards as obviously intended will make them right over left. However, the diagrams in the kit and photographs in books I have looked at show the push rods to be left over right. Is this another error ? This seems to be a common problem with wagon kits ; they often have the detail on the wrong side of the brake shoes/push rod assembly.

[Kenton]

The upper push rod should be on the same side as the brake lever (ie right) if I'm correct in thinking that as the lever drops the brake shaft rotates in a clockwise motion forcing the lower push rod to the left and the upper push rod to the right, in both cases connecting the brake shoes to the wheel rims.

[brian777999]

 

Yes you are correct they have cut the brake shoes detail incorrect on the Morton side . I turned the shoes around on my models and I didn't have the book then.

 

 

Is it not incorrect on both sides ? I thought it would be left over right on both sides.

[Kenton]

On the normal leaver side right over left and on the Morton side left over right.

Which is why you need to think twice and most folk (and me) get so confused.

[wagonman]

On any Morton 4-shoe rig the brake push rods are R over L on one side and L over R on the other side, the two sets being connected by the cross rod. That is why the brake lever on one side needs a reversing clutch (or lifting link which performed the same function). Just try to visualise the operation of the lever and you shouldn't go wrong, assuming all the parts are there...

[jonhall]

It dosn't help that in some cases the Parkside drawing is wrong - this is the instruction sheet on the Clam/Rudd, and in the upper drawing the mechanism works, on the lower one it dosn't!

 

 

Jon

[Boscarne]

There's a few diagrams here which might help;

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/nowagonbrakes.html

 

Just ignore the Dean/Churchward stuff.............

[brian777999]

So when the lever brakes are independent and are not connected with a cross rod then the push rods will be right over left on both sides ie. if there are brakes on both sides. This is how most of the kit builders seem to make the brake gear for their wagons.

 

If both sides are connected with a cross rod as per the Morton brake then the push rods will be left over right on the clutch side and right over left on the other side.

[Mark Saunders]

Have a look in the current "Model Railway Journal" No209 with a feature on LMS 17' 6" wheelbase vehicles of the same family!

 

It is an article on the forthcoming 4mm "Craig Welsh" etched brass kit for a Twin Bolster.

 

This chassis fits under, Plates, Twin Bolster,Trestle, LMS Tubes and the 75 timber conversions for Ashworth Kirk , plus industrial conversions.

 

Mark Saunders

[brian777999]

ANOTHER PROBLEM : there are four small square plates about 3mm X 2mm. Where do they go ? The instructions do not mention anything about them and I cannot see them on the diagrams either.

[Adam]

Not sure, there are occasionally bits on Parkside's sprues which have no discernible purpose. I always find that looking at pictures of the real thing helps. Try these links:

 

http://paulbartlett....cbbe87#hccbbe87 - LNER Plate

 

http://paulbartlett....43ac2#h3ba43ac2 - LMS Double Bolster (despite being built by different companies, these wagons were constructed to a very similar design).

 

If you're interested in building wagons, as you seem to be, having Paul Bartlett's site saved to your favourites really helps clear up this kind of confusion. the confusion shouldn't be in the instructions in the first place of course.

 

http://paulbartlett....tsrailwaywagons

 

Adam

[Kenton]

There is a caution on using photographs - the date may not be appropriate in all cases. Just because a wagon was photographed in 1965 does not make it correct for detail in say 1923. Thi can be even more true for vehicles photographed in preservation where "new rules" may have been applied during restoration.

 

At least the instructions should enable the kit to be built as intended by the kit designer - even if that includes errors from the prototype (usually simply unobserved and not intentional) If you choose to add further detail taken from some photo you have access to then that is your choice and responsibility. The problem is that test builds, if they are performed at all, are usually carried out by the designer or by someone too close to the designer. This usually results in steps being missed or poorly described for someone new to the kit or even worse new to kit building.

 

Most would simply miss those small squares or simply discount them as sprue flash unless they were specifically addressed in the instructions. Indeed some would discard them anyway.

[rodshaw]

I too am building this kit.

 

There seems to be no discernible way, with the parts supplied, of fixing the brake shoe assemblies. That is, unless I've inadvertently thrown something away with the sprues. There's nothing to space the assemblies from the V hangers, and nothing to fix them to the chassis underside. In the end I made some fixings from plastic section.

 

Have I missed something?

[brian777999]

There seems to be no discernible way, with the parts supplied, of fixing the brake shoe assemblies. That is, unless I've inadvertently thrown something away with the sprues. There's nothing to space the assemblies from the V hangers, and nothing to fix them to the chassis underside. In the end I made some fixings from plastic section.

 

I am not sure I understand your problem. I am looking at my completed wagon now.  The brake shoe assemblies are simply glued to the bottom of the wagon, making sure that the shoes are lined up with the wheels and that the wheels turn freely. Have you removed parts from the brake shoe assembly when you cut it from the sprue ?

[rodshaw]

In that case I think I must have cut the vertical fixings short when removing the parts from the sprue, because they wouldn't reach the underside of the body. I had to use spare bits of plastic rod to make up the length.

[brian777999]

In that case I think I must have cut the vertical fixings short when removing the parts from the sprue, because they wouldn't reach the underside of the body. I had to use spare bits of plastic rod to make up the length.

 

There should be a long plastic piece connecting the two brake shoes and this is what is glued underneath the wagon floor. It should be glued so that the brake shoes are in line with the wheels.

[Guest stuartp]

I built this donkey's years ago, I'll have a look when I get home but in the meantime:

 

I was about to install the brake shoes/push rod assembly when I noticed that installing them with the detail facing outwards as obviously intended will make them right over left. However, the diagrams in the kit and photographs in books I have looked at show the push rods to be left over right. Is this another error ? This seems to be a common problem with wagon kits ; they often have the detail on the wrong side of the brake shoes/push rod assembly.

 

If I remember correctly they've given you two the same orientation and one has to be fitted backwards (i.e. with the detail on the inside) to get them the right way round. At the time this kit was first released Parkside were just starting out and this saved having to tool up two separate sprues. You're right though, it would have been nice if the instructions had mentioned this. It is possible that Parkside didn't actually realise they'd (he'd ?) got it wrong, there wasn't the wealth of instant information around then that there is now. They've gone the other way now - there are so many alternative parts in their BR 12t van kits I managed to make three free ones just from the spares box.

 

ANOTHER PROBLEM : there are four small square plates about 3mm X 2mm. Where do they go ? The instructions do not mention anything about them and I cannot see them on the diagrams either.

 

I think they go at the ends of the headstocks (buffer beam) to extend them out to the full width of the body. I'll have a look.

 

In that case I think I must have cut the vertical fixings short when removing the parts from the sprue, because they wouldn't reach the underside of the body. I had to use spare bits of plastic rod to make up the length.

 

I think you've chopped off the mounting blocks, they do look a lot like thick bits of sprue.

 

Parkside are gradually re-tooling their range, their problem being that as they do so the RTR manufacturers jump in and nick their market. There was no such problem when Parkside and Cambrian started, the RTR offerings were sparse, and generally dire. At the time Parkside started out the offerings from Hornby were stuff like Weetabix vans, 'Polo' tankers, and the like.  

[rodshaw]

I think you've chopped off the mounting blocks, they do look a lot like thick bits of sprue.

 

Just goes to show you shouldn't be impatient. It does say something about this in the instructions. Never mind, I've got it sorted with lengths of plastic section.

[Fat Controller]

Just goes to show you shouldn't be impatient. It does say something about this in the instructions. Never mind, I've got it sorted with lengths of plastic section.

 

Now it's pretty well assembled, the long thin rods that go from the bottom of one axlebox to the other, one either side, are slightly bowed, probably as a result of clumsy handling. Any ideas how to fix this?

The ones on the prototype were often like this.. I break a lot of tie-bars, as these rods are called, and generally replace them woth fine brass angle, or even with copper wire hammered flat.

I do wonder if this kit is a legacy of the old 'Ian Kirk' range, as the 21t and 24½t minerals were? It would be nice to see it reissued, perhaps with the existing body, but with the deeper solebars and heavy-duty 'w-irons' of the BR-built ones. I've done a few of these, with vac-brakes- a type widely seen around BR, even away from industrial areas.