Is trackwork the poor relation of the hobby ?

shortliner · December 13, 2011

If Peco ( or anyone else) produced OO scale width track with proto-sized sleepers for UK modellers (bearing in mind that the prospect of ever selling any outside the UK would be almost zilch), this pre-supposes that the major manufacturers of rolling stock will also be prepared to re-scale all their tools and dies so that their equipment will run on it - believe me, people, that ain't going to happen! The sheer cost of doing so would put their stock-holders in penury for a decade - and the board-rooms would undergo the fastest clearout ever seen, probably followed by the firms going out of business, and ceasing to trade. Economics, gentlemen, Economics! The mere suggestion is a non-starter. And if you don't believe me look at the US market, and how many of their locos and wagons still run with X2F hornhook couplers, because it is too expensive to change or re-tool

Andy Y · December 13, 2011

We are all modellers and enjoy the hobby. Just because we accept 16.5mm as a gauge, it doesn't mean we are any less worthy....

Quite so and I am of the opinion that PWSlack is spending his time trying to wind people up today http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/48883-the-up-mail/page__st__25 ; hopefully any further such posts will be weeded out by a member of the team before he annoys anyone else.

'CHARD · December 13, 2011

Quite so and I am of the opinion that PWSlack is spending his time trying to wind people up today http://www.rmweb.co....il/page__st__25 ; hopefully any further such posts will be weeded out by a member of the team before he annoys anyone else.

"Like"

Oh that's link's well worth checking out, for its sheer unadulterated irrelevance. After a day of dealing with people for a living, who make me shake my head in disbelief practically each time I put the phone down, that has much the same effect. I fail to see why anyone would wish to crack on like that in a forum that's essentially about leisure and relaxation.

craigwelsh · December 13, 2011

Your point on newcomers is good but remember most newcomers wont know what Peco is. They will most likely have a trainset from Bachmann or Hornby and they will extend it (for a while) with track from Bachmann or Hornby. Perhaps the focus is completely wrong looking at Peco at all? If you want to instigate a change towards what 00 track looks like it has to come from the very beginning. If Bachmann and Hornby could agree on a new track for their trainsets then you can use the consistent with what a person has already card to your advantage. It would be a brave MD who would authorise something that 'looks' inconsistent with their competitors.

My point about code 100 vs code 75 is that code 75 came later and WAS a new track (just not in the way you want it to be) I had better compromises (as you advocate) with regard to the visual look of the rail so in that regard it ticks all of the boxes you need for your definition of a new track. It should have killed code 100 off years ago but it hasn't - perhaps, again this comes back to the original train set - it has to be compatible.

Cheers

Jim

When you walk into a lot of model shops just after xmas and the grandparents are bringing in Jonny to use his money to extend the basic trainset he unwrapped from santa much of the time the model shop says "you can buy this Peco range we have which is compatible with that Hornby stuff but had more types of point so you can indeed try to make it look like that weird squiggle on paper you've just shown me".

Between him and Mr "my 375 Lima class 37s run on the chairs of this code 75 so I need code 100 instead" its inevitable code 100 will be around from Peco for a while yet.

00 still has legacies in wheels too, everyone would be using RP25/88 instead of /110 if everyone wanted to get more finescale and you wouldn't have those study group wheels still floating around too.

Someone who wants the range ideally needs to make up a couple of C+L turnouts with 1.2mm flangeways to Peco geometry and maybe slightly shorter sleepers and spacing than true 4mm:1ft and see who likes it. I doubt people will agree what they want if given blank paper to design on but if you say "well would this do?" you'll probably get a much better response.

Unless Peco produces it (why compete with themselves?) it would probably have to be a case of selling it to a group of modellers who wanted new layouts in batches rather than trying to supply a dealer network.

Gamble though - "build it and they'll come" hmm, maybe. The idea seems to have paid off in P4 with the Exactoscale kits though so its probably very much doable. Maybe its Dapol's next big thing after they've done signals and OHLE (another area 'where no one knows what prototype they want' but 98% will probably buy the Dapol ones).

Maybe someone can 3D print their pointwork and paint the rails with conductive paint .

steve fay · December 14, 2011

I can only echo what's already been said, if you want better OO track then SMP and C and L do it.

You don't need to wait for peco to do it it's already available.

Last Time I modelled in oo I used SMP combined with peco code 75 points.

Once weathered it looked very convincing you won't get the complex junctions like the self built stuff excellently produced by some of the layouts on here but it's a good compromise.

It's probably best not to complain about it and use the manufactures already producing it.

SMP

C & L

Exactoscale.

You could of course modify peco as suggested by jim with the sleeper spacing jig.

gordon s · December 14, 2011

I have to agree with you Steve. Pure coincidence, but this is SMP that I'm using and it will happily go with Peco 75 pointwork.

steve fay · December 14, 2011

Gordon

I was talking about your layout among a few others in my original posting.

It looks superb and SMP is a fantastic product ready to buy off the shelf.

Your layout is inspirational.

Steve

gordon s · December 14, 2011

Thanks Steve, I wasn't digging for compliments, but just wanted to show what SMP can look like once painted and ballasted. Until I started building my own pointwork, I used both Tillig (code 83) and Peco 75 and SMP went together with both.

lakeview770 · December 18, 2011

I'm a bit puzzled?

If the UK market is too small to support it's own line of 00 RTR track, then surely it's too small to support all those RTR manufacturers who supply us with British outline models?

Bachmann and Hornby with their vast catalogues, Heljan, Dapol, The Hobby Co. with its commissioned models from ViTrains and now Realtrack models entering this totally unviable market.

They must all be mad attempting to trade here, they must be losing a fortune?

I've just checked out Peco's range of products.

Notwithstanding their numerous ranges of track in various gauges and styles, they also produce a vast array of accessories, wagon kits in 00 & N, buildings, kits of all sorts of things, the Wills range, the Ratio range, the Modelscene range, blah blah....

It appears that there are far more product items here, than in all their track ranges put together !

99.9 % of it is all British outline and not much at all that would suit those modelling in a non-British theme (the 00 stuff is to 4mm anyway).

Now I've no idea of what proportions of Peco's sales are attributed to the various track ranges and their vast catalogue of non-track products, but clearly there is a large reliance on the home market, irrespective of those fellow British outline modellers "down under", or elsewhere on the planet. They wouldn't be selling all that other stuff if there wasn't, surely?

You only have to pick up an American model railroad magazine to see Peco track is sold there, although they have to compete with several other brands including Atlas, Bachmann, Shinohara and the excellent Micro Engineering range.

As a result, Peco had to introduce the Code 83 range in order to stay competitive. Interestingly, it's been said this is the best looking track range they do. I wonder why?

Peco track is also sold in parts of mainland Europe, although in some markets I suspect sales are rather marginal considering the presence of large local producers with their own track product ranges.

So track exports are important to the folk in Beer, but it's also noticeable that they carry track ranges that would have limited appeal beyond these shores and which are aimed at small niche modelling interests. Are they doing that for fun, because there can't be any money in it surely? After all, even the overwhelmingly popular 00 gauge can't be viable at all in such a small market as the UK?

Ron

.

Peco track is very popular here for many reasons, for one the build quality is excellent Atlas track is very fragile and flimsy and made from a very brittle plastic you also need a turnout motor automaticaly doubling the price As a recent convert to British OO I'm going Peco all the way it proved so reliable in N scale so why change. But in saying that I cant see why Peco cant do a code 75 line with correct tie spacing, it could run concurrent with their yellow boxed code 75 and like their code 83 line introduce it bit by bit starting with flex track and a couple of the more popular turnouts it can be done as they did.

Andrew

hayfield · December 18, 2011

Peco track is very popular here for many reasons, for one the build quality is excellent Atlas track is very fragile and flimsy and made from a very brittle plastic you also need a turnout motor automaticaly doubling the price As a recent convert to British OO I'm going Peco all the way it proved so reliable in N scale so why change. But in saying that I cant see why Peco cant do a code 75 line with correct tie spacing, it could run concurrent with their yellow boxed code 75 and like their code 83 line introduce it bit by bit starting with flex track and a couple of the more popular turnouts it can be done as they did.

Andrew

It is quite interesting that when asking why, the first reason is cost. When code 75 came in then that would have been an ideal time to bring in a range of 4mm scale track, but perhapps they had one eye on their exports to H0 gauge countries.

This is from their website

83 Line items are realistic models of North American railroad track, using Code 83 rail

How about 4mm scale modellers being treated the same as our friends over the Pond. Could we hope for Atlas to do the same for us as Peco has done for US modellers

Code 75 items are realistic models of 4mm scale British railway track,

Its about time that modellers that wanted to model in 4mm scale 00 gauge were given a track system based on British railway practice.

We are being told by various financial experts that companies should seek new markets and products to help get us out of resession. Well here is one and judging by the speed new highly detailed locos and stock are replacing our old and loved models without a second thought there must be a market, Everyone must own a Triang or Hornby Jinty, given the excuses about modellers modellers not wanting to change track, using the same reasoning why did Bachmann bring the Jinty out, the markets flooded with them.

Once one person changes to RTR 00 British track every one will

Jol Wilkinson · December 18, 2011

Its about time that modellers that wanted to model in 4mm scale 00 gauge were given a track system based on British railway practice.

Everyone must own a Triang or Hornby Jinty, given the excuses about modellers modellers not wanting to change track, using the same reasoning why did Bachmann bring the Jinty out, the markets flooded with them.

If you want 4mm scale OO track, then you can get it from C&L, etc. However, that means that you will have to build the turnouts, something that is unacceptable to most OO modellers.

As for everyone owning a Triang or Hornby Jinty, I never have and never will :boast: . These "models" and Peco track are both examples of a supplier seeing and feeding a market that is more intested in price and has little interest in accuracy, than decent model making . Peco have been able to base their business on this consumer attitude for so long that it's difficult to see why and if they'll ever need to change it.

Jol

December 18, 2011

Code 75 items are realistic models of 4mm scale British railway track,

You'd be hard pushed claiming it realistic from a marketing point of view when the gauge is completely wrong. Better yes but let's not fool ourselves here, oo point work doesn't look realistic to anyone with half a clue of what it should look like.

Plain track at the right angle you can get away with it, but plain track is available, it's pointwork we are talking about.

As I have said before though, I applaud the idea of better oo simply because if it gets people thinking about track and looking at the real thing I really believe that better oo will only be a short fix before they push for something better.

As always, you are never going to convince any manufacturer that there's a demand if all you do is whine on a forum that you REALLY want it but not enough to actually do anything about it for yourself. just how serious does that make you look?

Cheers

Jim

coachmann · December 18, 2011

Is trackwork the poor relation of the hobby ?

The unequivocal answer is yes.

t-b-g · December 18, 2011

I would qualify an answer by saying that in the RTR world track is the poor relation and will probably continue to be so.

Where people are willing, prepared and able to make an effort to produce something that is not otherwise available, then there are a few who like to give it some serious attention to stop it being so.

Most railway companies had their own ideas on trackwork and there were a lot of variations in timbering, chairs, check rails etc in pointwork, not to mention rail lengths and sleepering on plain track. To expect any RTR manufacturer to do anything other than a generic "one size fits all" type is not realistic in terms of tooling and production costs.

As long as people like C & L and Exatcoscale produce suitable componenets and drawings can be found, at least some modellers will be able to build their own GCR 1 in 8 rather than purchase a 4' radius RH point.

I compromise and I am happy to do so in balancing time versus output. I tend to make all my pointwork, usually from individual chairs if the number required is reasonable (copperclad if lots are needed) and then use C & L flexible track between them.

My next layout only has a small number of points and these are being built on home cut ply sleepers, based on GCR point drawings. They will be as accurate a model of GCR points as it is possible to make (in EM - so I accept that they are not as accurate as they would be in P4 and I am very happy with that compromise) from components currently available. So the points will have "4 bolt" chairs (Not really all bolts in real life!) and 9' sleepers but the plain track will only have the standard C & L 3 bolt pattern and 8' 6" sleepers.

If anybody notices I say good luck to them but after several layouts done the same way nobody has spotted it yet.

So for me, trackwork is certainly not the poor relation and I know that there are others like me out there because once in a while you can spot their work at exhibitions, when a layout appears with track that looks just right with not an item of stock in sight. They are usually EM, P4, S gauge, O gauge or Scaleseven and just very, very occasionally, other scales/gauges.