Time for Bachmann to start a Farish 'Railroad' range?

[crankycalf]

i thought this for a while now. It is great that Farish keep on improving and creating new N gauge locos to a great standard, but ever time there is a new one there is a price increase. Im not complaining from my point of view because if i want one then that is what i will have to pay, but it is the young people involved in the hobby i feel sorry for. you can buy a video game for £40-£50 but to buy a loco it is double that and if they are say 10 years old are you going to buy a £100 loco for a piece to break off when they take it out of the box?

 

the solution - create a child friendly range similar to the railroad range by Hornby using old molds and mechanisms. this way the cost would be kept to a minimum and they are not as breakable as the newer items, with the Dapol annoucements about the magnetic couplings and working signals, n gauge could now be more appealling to someone starting in the hobby than ever.

 

just my humble opinion

[Roy L S]

i thought this for a while now. It is great that Farish keep on improving and creating new N gauge locos to a great standard, but ever time there is a new one there is a price increase. Im not complaining from my point of view because if i want one then that is what i will have to pay, but it is the young people involved in the hobby i feel sorry for. you can buy a video game for £40-£50 but to buy a loco it is double that and if they are say 10 years old are you going to buy a £100 loco for a piece to break off when they take it out of the box?

 

the solution - create a child friendly range similar to the railroad range by Hornby using old molds and mechanisms. this way the cost would be kept to a minimum and they are not as breakable as the newer items, with the Dapol annoucements about the magnetic couplings and working signals, n gauge could now be more appealling to someone starting in the hobby than ever.

 

just my humble opinion

 

Taking account of inflation, how much have things really gone up though in real terms though?

 

Taking just one comparison, if I recall correctly 10 or (blimey!) possibly even 12 years ago I bought the Farish "Falcon" the RRP of the A4 was then £89.99 and you could probably get one From Hattons for about £70,

 

12 years later the list price of the immeasuarably superion A1 is £136 and Hattons will do you one for £111.

 

Ok, in both cases the A1 is over £40 more but once you factor in the 12 years worth of inflation in real terms real the difference is far less.

 

Regards

 

Roy

[frobisher]

On the face of it this looks plausible, but the big problem is that the manufacturing costs of the older models isn't going to be significantly less than the new ones due to the updated chassis that they have. The expensive components are pretty much the same between say the old Class 47 and the new one - the motor will be near identical now I think, plus the number of components in the drive train will be about the same. Part of this is down to Farish not going for a cheap and nasty drive mechanism like Lima did in the 60's and 70's.

 

You just have to look at the current Farish pricing to see this in action.

[Kris]

I can't see Bachmann ever creating a child friendly range of n gauge locos after all they state that the models are for adult collectors (14 and over). Part of this is to avoid many of the regulations surrounding toys.

[melpchar]

I agree with others that it's unlikely Farish will go down this route. You only have to look at the prices of current releases of 'poole era' models compared to the latest products to see the prices don't vary. Old Farish 4F on Hattons - £70 - New DCC ready Farish J39 - £64. Old class 25 £64 - New class 24 £64. etc.

 

If Farish ever wanted to create railroad versions they would probably be better off using the new versions of products but with fewer detailing parts attached or start from scratch to make more durable/child friendly models.

[Dave777]

Kris is right, N gauge has never been seen as a child-friendly scale. I can remember Farish having a reasonable selection of train sets in the late 80s and they were very expensive, not really aimed at Little Johnny, and Bachmann have nearly dropped the idea altogether. Typically there's only 2 or 3 sets available, and that's despite them being the major player in N gauge - it's not as if they're rushing to corner the market in N gauge train sets. That indicates to me that they don't see it as a scale aimed at children.

 

Also, what's the business driver for such a move? Sell them for less, make less profit.

 

 

[Karhedron]

Also, what's the business driver for such a move? Sell them for less, make less profit.

Possibly they could sell more of them at a lower price and thus make more profit overall. Remember that new models have to cover both production costs and also R&D costs. These old models have long-since paid for their tooling costs so can be produced much more cheaply as they only have to cover the unit costs.

 

Of course whether Bachmann wish to go down this route is debatable. But with A3, A4 and Bulleid Pacifics on the way from Dapol, many of the iconic locos in their range are going to be superseded by modern products. How well will the 30-year old A4 sell when there is a shiny new DCC-ready version available for an extra £20-£30? Cut the price to £50 and you might get people buying who otherwise would not bother.

 

Granted Bachmann are not likely to introduce a budget range out of the goodness of their hearts. But if the products are increasingly becoming differentiated on the basis of quality, offering a corresponding differential on price might be one way to get a bit more mileage out of the range.

[PLD]

I think it is possible you could see them churning out a cheap version of a few products where the updated, super-detailed version is from a rival munufacturer (HST, A4 etc) - effectively a 'spoiler' wringing the last income out of existing moulds, but I really doubt they would compete with their own premium products...

[Kris]

Something else to consider in releasing a "railroad" range is the market size. The OO market is significantly larger than the N gauge one. With a smaller potential market to start with the potential for making a profit is also diminished so introducing what would be seen as a new range in direct competition to existing models that are far better in terms of detail would be very risky.

[frobisher]

I think it is possible you could see them churning out a cheap version of a few products where the updated, super-detailed version is from a rival munufacturer (HST, A4 etc) - effectively a 'spoiler' wringing the last income out of existing moulds, but I really doubt they would compete with their own premium products...

 

I suspect if was vaiable to put a cheaper chassis under them then Bachmann could do that, but as I said before the Poole designed locos share much of the expense (if not the real benefits) with the newer stuff I can't see it being viable.

[Dr Al]

I would imagine the cost of producing an old style loco as compared to one from new tooling is less, primarily because (you'd hope) the tooling cost has been paid off in the first batches. As such the price probably could be dropped on the older models - but I doubt they'd do this for many reasons already cited.

 

It'll be interesting to see if locos like the Farish Hall now disappear given that there is competition.

 

One other consideration is the age of the tooling - already we have had the 4P and 101 not done by Bachmann (or retooled) because the old tooling was worn out. Looking at some of the more recent A4s etc the tooling isn't looking great either, so I wonder if many of these models only have a relatively small finite amount of time before they'll need replaced anyway.

 

I imagine in that case Bachmann will always replace with an all-singing-all-dancing version that's more likely to sell more units.

 

Cheers,

Alan

[crankycalf]

Something else to consider in releasing a "railroad" range is the market size. The OO market is significantly larger than the N gauge one. With a smaller potential market to start with the potential for making a profit is also diminished so introducing what would be seen as a new range in direct competition to existing models that are far better in terms of detail would be very risky.

I understand what you are saying, but my point is in order for the N gauge market to expand it has to be more appealing than OO, what i was trying to get across is that it is all well and good producing fantastic new N gauge locos that lets be honest look brilliant, but what about the next generation of modellers? how are they supposed to be able to afford to enter the hobby? i imagine most people didnt start out to create a super detailed scaled down exact replica of a railway, they probably just wanted to 'play trains' so why alienate them, why would you not want as your company goal to have every household owning your products?

[Edwin_m]

I think there could be some potential in N gauge for children, if only because the traditional 6' by 4' 00 floor layout is pretty difficult to store when not in use, but the equivalent in N would fit under a bed. However they'd have to commit themselves properly to it. Some of their choices for train sets in the past have been somewhat eccentric if they are aimed at children (Sprinter in 1980s livery is surely more for the serious modellers?).

[Kris]

I can't see the market for N gauge and children ever justifying the cost of getting the models through the EU toy regulations. Once you have done it for one item it is possible that you would then have to do the same for the rest of the the range as these items could be seen to be very similar to those designed for children (under 14's). I suspect that many of the current items, especially the newer more detailed ones would not pass. If this were the case then older modellers wanting greater detail would be the losers.

[Dave777]

Possibly they could sell more of them at a lower price and thus make more profit overall. Remember that new models have to cover both production costs and also R&D costs. These old models have long-since paid for their tooling costs so can be produced much more cheaply as they only have to cover the unit costs.

 

Granted Bachmann are not likely to introduce a budget range out of the goodness of their hearts. But if the products are increasingly becoming differentiated on the basis of quality, offering a corresponding differential on price might be one way to get a bit more mileage out of the range.

 

Sure, I understand the reasons behind such a range, the question I was raising was why bother to reduce the price when they sell at the current price anyway? That's where the business logic starts to fall down a bit for me.

 

 

Hornby set up their Railroad range based on, I suspect, the simple premise that they couldn’t sell those models at the current price anymore (for example, the TTA wagon when the Bachmann version was superior). That was a case of either having them sitting on the shelf earning nothing or bringing in a little bit of money (which is always preferable, of course). With the Farish stuff though the fact is that people still buy stuff like the A4 even though it’s at premium prices. So… why drop the price? As you say, they ain’t going to do that from an altruistic perspective

 

One could argue that once an equivalent product comes out then people will stop buying it, I admit.

 

I understand what you are saying, but my point is in order for the N gauge market to expand it has to be more appealing than OO, what i was trying to get across is that it is all well and good producing fantastic new N gauge locos that lets be honest look brilliant, but what about the next generation of modellers? how are they supposed to be able to afford to enter the hobby? i imagine most people didnt start out to create a super detailed scaled down exact replica of a railway, they probably just wanted to 'play trains' so why alienate them, why would you not want as your company goal to have every household owning your products?

 

Personally, I think N gauge will expand because the models improve on the detail and get themselves nearer to their OO equivalent in that regard, thus making the scale seem more attractive. Keeping some of the old creaky stuff alive – even at reduced prices – could end up actually damaging that strategy. ‘Build it and they will come’

 

Also, we need to get away from this belief that new modellers are always children. Many adults come into the hobby for the first time, and are earning, so I don’t see a cheap N gauge range as being attractive to them on either a pricing or detail front.

 

But seeing as it’s the ‘next generation’ of modellers that we keep coming back to (despite several replies pointing out the problems), then here’s a couple of other issues – Hornby’s production and marketing excellence in the trainset market (Bachmann don’t even attempt to tackle that with equivalent products, let alone a less detailed range), and the simple fact that – sorry – it’s just not a children’s scale. Even the Farish packaging proudly proclaims ‘for adult collectors’.

 

As I see it, the next generation will be captured via a Hornby trainset or their Railroad range. Does N gauge actually need or want to compete with that?

 

[Neil]

It's an interesting notion, and one which may have long term rather than short term possibilities. Social factors such as the cost of homes in relation to earnings (and parents of young children will probably be feeling the squeeze more than the young and uncommitted or the grey haired and well set up), the housing shortage and new build homes becoming ever more compact will mean that space will be a premium for families. I could see n gauge becoming more attractive in that context (as I believe it is in Japan) and while there may not be huge ammounts of money to be made initially in a 'railroad' range in n, I could see the market expanding. Quite apart from any initial sales to the younger section of the market, there's the establishing of brand awareness for the future to factor in as well as periphoral sales to the narrow minded who could be tempted away from the ubiquitous Kato mechanisms by a budget priced range of n gauge to butcher.

[Pennine MC]

...but what about the next generation of modellers? how are they supposed to be able to afford to enter the hobby?

 

With realistic expectations, presents from relatives, careful budgeting and buying decent secondhand, perhaps - just as I did, along with a lot of my contemporaries.

[NZmodeller]

Hi Everyone,

 

I can't really see the logic in keeping the old models in production. The expectations of N scale modellers is continually being raised. There is an opportunity to get onto N gauge very cheaply via the second hand market and there must be plenty of Farish HSTs, Mk1s , old 37s 47s etc. available, not to mention the A3s A4s and BB/WC that will be exchanged in the coming year. It's also improtant to note that newcomers to N scale will be far more likely to opt for DCC from the outset or as soon as they build their first substantial layout and will naturally gravitate to DCC ready items rather than ones that need surgery either by themselves or by someone else at additional cost. I would actually quite like a class 31, a class 25 and a 55 but I'm happy to wait on the basis that eventually Farish will produce an updated DCC ready version - if Dapol doesn't beat them to it. It saddens me a little when I see yet another production run of the old tooling and I wouldn't want to encourage the manufacture of these versions for any reason.

[grahame]

I'm not really in favour of what I'd consider to be a dumbed down range. After all cheapos and deals can still be found in clearance items, secondhand stalls and even ebay.

 

Besides, isn't much of the improvements we have seen in N gauge (and pay for) over recent years and enjoy, been in the standards and quality (such as better performing motors, finer profile wheels, DCC ready, accuracy and so on) rather than the fidelity and details that could easily be left off. Would youngsters really appreciate a cheap loco without NEM coupler sockets that they couldn't easily fit with Dapols new functional coupler or one that stalled on every insul frog point on their layout?

 

G.

[Karhedron]

I can't really see the logic in keeping the old models in production.

Because they still sell? These models are cheap to produce as the tooling costs have long-since been paid for. If people still want to buy them then there is no reason for the manufacturers to stop until/unless a revamped version is available.

 

You may be happy to wait for a revamped version but others may wish to get on a make the best of what is available now. Look at this way. Sales of those old models probably have a higher profit margin than new stuff meaning they are helping to find the next batch of revamped models.

[bmthtrains - David]

I doubt this has even crossed Farish's mind - N gauge is too small and delicate for children, the boxes aren't big and shiny to attract attention in Tesco and Toys R Us, and Hornby have that market sewn up perfectly well.

 

I expect Farish will stick to what it does best - producing quality scale models for the adult market. The future modellers will start with a Hornby set as children, and given the space constraints in modern homes, will increasingly chose N gauge if/when their playing turns into a serious hobby, as they will see that they can get superbly detailed models and a much more rewarding scope of layout into a space that in OO would produce a disappointingly small area to run on.

 

David

[The Stationmaster]

Because they still sell? These models are cheap to produce as the tooling costs have long-since been paid for. If people still want to buy them then there is no reason for the manufacturers to stop until/unless a revamped version is available.

 

You may be happy to wait for a revamped version but others may wish to get on a make the best of what is available now. Look at this way. Sales of those old models probably have a higher profit margin than new stuff meaning they are helping to find the next batch of revamped models.

Plus there must also be a sort of tipping point where the older 'poorer quality' Farish models start to become a threat to the brand image which Bachmann is developing with its newly tooled or retooled models. They can readily cane the older stuff, and make extra profit from it as you describe, until then to the overall benefit of the business but as that day dawns I think the situation will change and the older stuff will gradually disappear.

 

It is also easy to overlook the fact that Bachmann/Graham Farish as brands are in a very different position from Hornby which has the inertia of years of brand association and memory on its side. This means that it can sell just about anything into some market areas as long as its name is on the box - which must have made it much easier to get the Railroad range into the marketplace. And, of course 00 is far more suited to the junior market than the delicacy of N gauge (or am I looking at that through ageing eyes )

[Karhedron]

And, of course 00 is far more suited to the junior market than the delicacy of N gauge (or am I looking at that through ageing eyes )

Not at all. I am planning to build my boys a 00 layout in a year or two but there is no way I am going to let them play with my N gauge stuff.

[coachmann]

When I see remarks like, "worrabout a railroad range in N" and "How are we going to attract the next generation", I'm afraid I see "I want cheaper.....".

 

Pushing down prices pushes down someone elses wages. It could be your turn next, or mine.

[oreamnos]

Because they still sell? These models are cheap to produce as the tooling costs have long-since been paid for. If people still want to buy them then there is no reason for the manufacturers to stop until/unless a revamped version is available.

 

You may be happy to wait for a revamped version but others may wish to get on a make the best of what is available now. Look at this way. Sales of those old models probably have a higher profit margin than new stuff meaning they are helping to find the next batch of revamped models.

 

I agree with you, Karhedron. Farish have in their current range many many models whose tooling was amortized years ago. Off the top of my head they have in their current range the 4F, 4MT, 8F Jinty, two Panniers, Cl 25, Cl 31, Cl 40, Cl 50, Cl 52, Cl 55, all of which use body tooling from the 1980s and even the "new" chassis used by the diesels listed has likely been paid for.

 

I think you are correct that sales of these old models with their huge profit margins do help finance development on the newer ones. I know I am in the minority (and I couldn't care less about that), but I LIKE the older models. The trend is for "more detail, more realism" out of the box but frankly I'm quite happy with "less detail and more friendly to take apart and tinker with." At the end of the day I just want to have fun and I don't lose any sleep over my miniature railway and locos not being prototypically exact. They're close enough for me. I was amused by the editorial in this month's RM, where a modeller is quoted as insisting only real places must be modeled because he claimed the quality of a model can only be judged by comparison with the real thing. IMHO that kind of thinking is daft nonsense.

 

Which brings me to my point: If Farish discontinue an old model when they bring out a new one of the same prototype, then if I want a model of that prototype, I have to pay the premium for extra detail and features I don't want. As such, I would be very much in favor of a "dumbed down range" and would love for Farish to keep its old models in production, in something akin to a "Railroad" range, provided of course it charged a lower price for them.

 

Of course, I don't see this ever happening since British N gauge simply doesn't have the volume of OO and also because I think N is too small to appeal to children. Fortunately, as someone pointed out, there is still the second-hand market!

 

Matt