Horsetan Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 ....The chap in question has taken the time to float some ideas and make a book - granted, I wouldn't do things his way (and accuracy isn't his thing either it seems), but fair play to him for having a go and making something of it..... I still couldn't help wondering, having read through both books, whether he had to pay the publisher to print the things, or whether the publisher was short of material and therefore desperate for something new at that time..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted December 3, 2009 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 Hi Horsetan. did'nt realise earlier that that was a link. Just taken a quick look though, Hmmmn, fair play to him I say, not sure what the end results are like but I feel we should maybe get back on track before we arouse suspicion from the mods...... Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 At the end of the day, my "sow's purse" modelling may not appeal to you, Nortonian, or anyone else on this board - but it gives me heaps of enjoyment and thats all that counts. And isn't this the whole point? I wouldn't do an L1 this way, either, but that doesn't invalidate or in any way diminish these projects. What they may lack in absolute scale accuracy they more than make up in their innovation and enthusiasm and surely that's what all of this is about. It's a broad church, this modelling, and should remain so. Cheers (and I hope I'm not preaching) Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nortonian Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Okay, looks like I need to defend my questioning here. I asked all I did with the greatest respect to you all, I was not looking to shoot you down as you appear to be doing to me. I have no doubt that the end result is what is important you you all , in the fact that you have done the work yourself and not something by others. If I had a hat, I would take it off to you for having a go !. The reasoning behind my questioning is thus. The younger element of today's world want everything now !, not later but now, sooner the better, nobody wants to wait. People don`t try hard enough any more. Many don`t wear a watch, why ?, well its `on me mobile`. Other examples being a significant number of forks only are being sold, due to TV dinners and not sat at the table using a knife as well. Oh then there`s this Satnaff thing too, people can`t read a map any more !. Being in others cars, I have experienced being told to turn left into a field. The point of my beef is that everyone can`t be bothered, no pride, which is why we are in the state this country is. You mention Sean that you and kits don`t go together, well they wont` with negative attitude. It takes `time` to learn to do something and by giving up because you had a bad experience previously, probably through no fault of your own, ie wrong tools, iron, flux, solder, or even advice, you gave up thinking you could`nt do it. That`s a real shame, you can do it like most others here, perhaps you just need some direction. I did`nt wake up one morning and find I could solder, its taken me years to get to this point, with many mistakes along the way. Yes Simon, doing it this way will give you heaps of enjoyment, but just how much more satisfaction would you have because you went that extra mile and did it properly. Sean, I have no doubt that it looks something like an L1 if you squint, we could all do that, but that is not the point though, `it`ll do as it is`. If it does`nt look right, it probably is`nt right. And Mike, I am quite surprised at your comment here, coming from a man who scratchbuilt a number of signal gantries to the enth degree in all their glory, and I respect that, and also the same man that is currently not satisfied with his B1, but taking it apart and replacing the various parts. I agree with you all that this hobby is about enjoyment as an end result, however we get there, but appear to of taken all my comments the wrong way in as much that I am condemning your efforts which I am not, just trying to encourage you to do things better. I really despair at the many on here who open a couple of brightly coloured boxes and hey presto, we have a railway. Some of which have even entered into the 2010 challenge this way too, it beggars belief. There is sufficient knowledge on this group and in all the current magazines, not just MRJ, that can give encouragement and support to those willing to try harder. I am entering the challenge as a challenge to myself, not to win and I hope I don`t. Its about taking a leaf out of my own book and finishing something in its entirety. Sean, you gave a lot of pleasure to a lot of people last time with your K1 build, even though you fell down a couple of times. This time, stretch yourself a bit harder and be sure you have all the information you need before someone points out a mistake. To that end, I repeat myself in saying, if you need any information from my drawing, I`ll happily supply it to you and of course any advice and encouragement. Please don`t think I`m having a go, because I`m not. With kindest regards Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted December 4, 2009 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 Wise words as ever Mike. Right, moving swiftly on, below, you should find a picture of the progress so far. Well, I call it progress, but it could be argued I've actually moved backwards! re the trivia question above, I was listening to the song, First Cut Is The Deepest, (GROAN).......... Admittedly, the Sheryl Crowe version as I'm not really a fan of Rod Stewart. Anyhow, I've cut through the forward part of the boiler and the rear part of the fall plate. I've done it this way to assist with removal of the splasher forward of the side tanks. Looking at prototype pictures and drawings, there's a cutaway at this point which charactorises these locomotives and so must be modelled. Otherwise, Id have incorporated the splasher into the new side tank extensions...... MORE WORK! Uff! He heh. Joking apart, I'm starting to enjoy this! Whilst I had the saw out, I also cut the rear sole bar ready for lengthening. I'll be storing the buffer beam in the spares box for now till its needed later though. Just as an observation, my theory with this one is to do a little at a time and not do too much in one go otherwise, I feel measurements may all fall out of line. Cheers for now, Sean. What HAVE I done????? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 I am very much in favour of this pragmatic approach. I always thought that any hobby was something that you did for relaxation and enjoyment. I managed to follow the comments about the K1. I think I am correct in that it will be a NB machine. I can just about grasp the concept of the Ivatt underpinnings but am still puzzled by the plan to replace the valve gear. That sounds like hard work. Just read up a bit on the L1 history and like the look of the original 1943 proposals. Now there is an idea. You are a braver man than me Sean both in tackling this project and in writing it up on a public forum. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted December 4, 2009 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 Ha. No defence needed Ian. I read your comments with interest and salute your approach to your modelling. I'm afraid I have to stick to my guns with my kit building skills though. I've thrown more in the bin than....... Well, you know.... I even had to contract out the chassis construction on my little 02 Diesel shunter kit and thats marketed as a beginners kit! . I welcome this type of debate on any of my threads but just to finish up on this particular one, I agree, I did fall down on a few points, but Horsetan was always there to pick up on the points and I'm sure he'll be scrutinising this one as it goes along eh Horsetan? He heh. Oh, Ian, keep those drawings handy, I feel a pipe run or two coming on..... . Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted December 4, 2009 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 Hi Bernard. Yes, I think it will be an NB version by the number etc. The valve gear is still being plotted at the moment, but I'm hoping to just replace about 3 parts to make it more authentic. My blog should explain this better, but I have to confess, I don't have the valve gear parts yet, so its still pie in the sky for now. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Okay, looks like I need to defend my questioning here. And Mike, I am quite surprised at your comment here, coming from a man who scratchbuilt a number of signal gantries to the enth degree in all their glory, and I respect that, and also the same man that is currently not satisfied with his B1, but taking it apart and replacing the various parts. Ian, Without wishing to prolong what is a peripheral debate to this thread and, equally, without wishing to appropriate this thread, let me make one comment re the above. Yes, I build my models to the enth degree. Two reasons; one because I have the compulsion to constantly improve, which drives the other ; because I have learned to and now can. That said, I couldn't always and have 'learned the trade' as you have 'learned the trade'. It's really about what level do you aspire to reach and at what level do you accept that to go any further may prove impossibly difficult. And those aspirations and 'limit points' are different for all of us. You can put all the water you want out for the horses, they will still not all drink the same amount. So that is why I made the comment I made. We cannot and should not diminish the work of others simply because we think we can do better, so our logic then proceeds - per sae, they should also want to do better. But I'll still contact you for any hints and tips you can offer me on building better and better 4mm locomotives - even though you do model 7mm - and therein lies the real key. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nortonian Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted December 4, 2009 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 Are we all friends again now then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
m mcdermott Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 is it safe to come above the parapets yet ??? if so can you carry on in the same way please sean it would be much appreciated .you know the way i agreed to , ignore the knockers.mali Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nortonian Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Did somebody mention Knockers ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
3 link Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Wise words as ever Mike. Right, moving swiftly on, below, you should find a picture of the progress so far. Well, I call it progress, but it could be argued I've actually moved backwards! re the trivia question above, I was listening to the song, First Cut Is The Deepest, (GROAN).......... Funny that !!!! The surgeon who carried out my vasectomy had that tune playing in the back ground while he attended to me. :blink:. All the best, Martyn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Funny that !!!! The surgeon who carried out my vasectomy.... Unlike the model at the moment, that's a bit too much detail. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Rhys Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 The Ivatt 2MT is providing the driving wheels as they are similarly sized and spaced to the L1 - the addition of a trailing bogie from a B1 will complete the 2-6-4T arrangement. The valve gear will be replaced with something closer to the L1 spec. I am also starting my build in parallel to Sean's, albeit I am using a Bachmann N class chassis as its valve gear is already correct for a "kit bash" L1. The entire point of building a model like this is to avoid making the kit!!! And I consider this to be a lot more fun having to scratch build some components as well as modifying and carefully selecting others. Sean, you're in the lead - I'm on your tail! Best of luck chap, I am enjoying reading your progress. Kind Regards, Simon Hi Sean, and Simon, Although this is my first contribution to this thread I've been following the whole conversation closely by flitting between your respective blogs. Great to see you're both underway, not yet reached the first hurdles eh? Anyway, hope you don't mind me adding some rambling thoughts here. I'm a big fan of using RTR, especially chassis, as a basis for accurate models (no reason at all for assuming that RTR-bashing inevitably results in inaccurate models). However the planning stage is usually critical, because some consequences of choosing a particular base model, for example compromising certain dimensions (eg. loco coupled wheelbase), can have a serious unavoidable 'knock-on' effect on other related dimensions. When I'm planning something like this, having chosen what I think is a suitable chassis, I always take a photocopy of a side-on drawing of the finished loco, cut out the wheels and rearrange them on a scrap of paper at the wheelbase of the chosen chassis. Then lay the scrap of paper on the original drawing and play around to see exactly how the model chassis wheelbase will appear, and where exactly to place it in relation to the remainder of the loco. (Actually, for a young'un, this would be even better done using Photoshop on the L1 piccy on Simon's blog.) If the wheelbase, or wheel diameter, is different, what knock-on effect does it have on other features? The reason I mention this here is because, in Simon's case of using the Bachmann N chassis, choosing the N wheelbase is going to have big knock-on effects on the overall L1 build - I'm using all the dimensions supplied by Horsetan and Gilwell Park in Sean's L1 blog here. Simon, if you compare the pictures on your 'Thompson L1 - kit of parts' blog, which of the N-Class axles would you line up with on the L1? If you line up the centre axle position, the front axle and cylinder will be 3mm too far forward (N-Class 7'3", L1 6'6") - which is not too far, but has a knock-on effect that the cylinder will partially cover the front bogie wheel (possible bogie clearance problems?) and the steam pipe above the footplate will not be centred on the cylinder; also the front driving wheel will be partially ahead of the side tank front edge, and may hit the footplate underside ahead of the tank (which would in reality probably have needed a small splasher extension like on the V3 picture). But, if you avoid this by lining up the front axles of the N-Class and the L1, the rear wheel will be 8mm (N-Class front-to-rear 15'6", L1 front-to-rear 13'6") too far back - the rear wheel will be beneath the cab windows (as on the V3), but more importantly, where can the rear bogie go to?? You cannot reduce its wheelbase by 8mm, although you could shorten it a bit, and move it closer to the rear wheel, and also closer to the bunker rear - but it will have a massive effect on the overall impression of the loco, with the rear end of the loco looking totally cramped. Are you sure about using the N-Class chassis? I know the valve gear is a problem with the 2MT, but are there any other options? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts (and Sean's too, being as it's his thread!) By the way, if you do fancy photoshopping the L1 picture to match the N-Class wheelbase, could you put it on here please - it would be fascinating to see. I would love to know how it's done too, so I could try it in future instead of cutting out bits of paper! Anyway, these are mighty looking tanks here, so much more interesting than yer average A-whatsit Pacifics, don't you think? Look forward to seeing more of both these projects. Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted December 13, 2009 Author Share Posted December 13, 2009 Hi Neil, Welcome to the thread and thanks for your musings on chassis etc. I'm hopeful that I've got it about right with the wheel spacings as when I lined the 2MT chassis up to my L1 scale drawing, it seems to be perfect. I believe Simon has his chassis modifications in hand too and I'm sure if not, he will have a cunning plan up his sleeve to sort the matter. Wise words though and I like the idea of photo copying the drawings etc. Of course, I wholly agree that it is important to get this part right as a wobbly chassis spoils the running of a model. A bit of a waste if the basis of making a model like this is to use production chassis. Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted December 13, 2009 Author Share Posted December 13, 2009 Hi all. been busy over the last week, but the L1 has had some more work carried out all though, I'm the first to admit, not much! Photo's below and the captions should explain whats going on so far. The boiler has been joined together, but the fall plate needs to have some extra plasticard to make it more solid before the side tank extensions are added. A close up of the above. The dome will be moved and replaced along with the snifter valve and funnel as one of the next jobs. The loco from above. The gaps in the fall plate can be seen in this view. These gaps will be filled with plasticard for strength, even though they will not be visible behind the side tank extensions. If I forget, can someone remind me to fill the tank fillers at the same time as I fill the fall plate gaps. I know I'll forget!!! Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nortonian Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Hi Sean, Don`t forget to fill the holes in the tank tops !. The smokebox looks to be at least 1 degree out of alignment at present, which includes the `RUNNINGPLATE`(not fallplate), can you correct this ?, otherwise it will look like she is constantly going round corners. Oh yes and blogs !, as mentioned elsewhere on these scratch and sniff threads, much easier here than there. Kindest Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Rhys Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Hi Sean, I'm hopeful that I've got it about right with the wheel spacings as when I lined the 2MT chassis up to my L1 scale drawing, it seems to be perfect. It is indeed almost smack on! Also the nominal wheel diameter is only fractionally less (2MT 5'0" against L1 5'2") - but I think it's better to choose a smaller diameter in preference to a larger anyway, partly because of the ca. 2 1/2" wear allowance that Horsetan referred to in your blog (lest he thought he had been writing in invisible ink :icon_biggrin: ), but also because the oversized wheel flange on OO gauge wheels makes them appear bigger than their quoted diameter. The thing with the photocopies wouldn't exactly qualify for a patent! Actually the first time I used it was when I was trying to do exactly what you described - I had a Hornby Jinty chassis and was trying to lay it against a loco drawing of a certain Scottish 0-6-2T (and without getting X04 oil on the drawing), but because the motor and large metal chassis block totally obscured the rest of the drawing, I couldn't see whether the loco would look OK or not with the slightly over-large Jinty chassis. But 20 minutes with the scissors, Pritt stick, and pen to redraw missing lines, and a new loco was designed. After all, isn't that how they did the real ones? (Nigel Gresley, eat yer heart out.) Doing that, I could see that as long as I moved back the rear bogie to even up the difference, everything still 'looked right' in relation to everything else, the fireman wouldn't trip over the rear driving wheel when climbing out of the cab, and whatever. Tank locos with long sidetanks and no splashers are often quite forgiving for extending/shortening wheelbases, but things like that V1 in Simon's photo would be a b*gger, having tiny tanks, a front splasher, and the rear driver already under the cab windows. Well this L1 appears to be the latest in a long line of mixed RTR- and kitbashes over the last year or so on RMweb: D16..B2..K1..A1/1 Great Northern...gr.king's amazing P1..and now this L1. Notice any common factor?? Errmm - LNER? Do you think there's any reason why? Maybe because standardised boiler sizes, smokebox designs etc on the LNER makes them easy to swap around from existing RTR? Or maybe because there's a dearth of LNER RTR models anyway, so you have to build yourself or go without? Please discuss... (Me not being an LNER man, I wouldn't know.) Last thing, the photos you take are really good. They make it really easy to see what you've done, so please keep taking them. Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 ....the ca. 2 1/2" wear allowance that Horsetan referred to in your blog (lest he thought he had been writing in invisible ink ).... Most of my handwriting's illegible so it might as well be invisible anyway Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted December 14, 2009 Author Share Posted December 14, 2009 Hi Sean, Don`t forget to fill the holes in the tank tops !. The smokebox looks to be at least 1 degree out of alignment at present, which includes the `RUNNINGPLATE`(not fallplate), can you correct this ?, otherwise it will look like she is constantly going round corners. Oh yes and blogs !, as mentioned elsewhere on these scratch and sniff threads, much easier here than there. Kindest Ian OK OK Running plate! Don't you remember, I'm a diesel man????? Yes, you're quite right, the boiler is slightly out, but the two bits of plasticard holding the two ends together are still flexible at the moment, so when I add the further bits, I will, (hopefully), be able to clamp it more securely and in doing so, make sure its all completely straight. There was little to grip to when I made the join, (when I did the K1, I used bulldog clips on the RUNNING PLATE). It all makes sense in theory, but we'll see how it goes in practice. Cheers for now. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted December 14, 2009 Author Share Posted December 14, 2009 Last thing, the photos you take are really good. They make it really easy to see what you've done, so please keep taking them. Neil Hi Neil. Thanks for the above, (and your musings re the Jinty chassis - very resourceful). I'm not really a photographer to be honest, but I find that as long as my digi camera view finder has a Green light, the photo can be zoomed and cut etc to get the close ups. Sometimes though, I have to take a few pictures to avoid the camera shake and blurring. They say a picture paints a thousand words though and imagine trying to put this lot over without a few piccies eh? Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Alder Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 hanks for the above, (and your musings re the Jinty chassis - very resourceful). I'm not really a photographer to be honest, but I find that as long as my digi camera view finder has a Green light, the photo can be zoomed and cut etc to get the close ups. Sometimes though, I have to take a few pictures to avoid the camera shake and blurring.- quote Ditto, with regard to my photographic talents, but I found Chris N's tip of using the two second delay timer very handy when taking shots- it gives enough time to steady yourself after the movement of shutter pressing. Enjoying the build BTW,it is making the K1 look like an Airfix build by comparison . Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted December 14, 2009 Author Share Posted December 14, 2009 Hi Richard. Welcome to the thread, (think this is your first post on this one?). Yes, the K1 seemed simple by comparison, but the important thing is, I'm enjoying it, (so far). Its quite suprising, as I really don't know much about steam loco's and spent my platform end years firmly in Blue diesel times. Its only because I prefer the Green liveries that I ended up with a few steam loco's. I'm learning plenty as I go along though and I'm still confident that this will be a near perfect representation of the L1 once its done. I may even be reluctant to hand it over by the end Mali......... Wu ha haha. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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