Gresley Buffet Cars in the 70s

[RANGERS]

I'm thinking of a conversion of a Hornby Gresley Buffet into the later life guise and I'm looking for info' on the workings of the remaining cars in the 1970s. I know at least one (W9135E) worked on the Western until withdrawl but did any remain on the Eastern?

 

I seem to recall reading in Modern Railways at the time of their demise that one worked the Harwich-Manchester regularly but it's 30+ years and I wasn't taking too much notice at the time (more interested in what the latest 56s were up to!)

[Trevellan]

If my memory serves me correctly, three Gresley buffets made it into blue/grey livery: 9128, 9131 and 9135. I remember seeing one on a Merrymaker excursion in September 1973. I took a black and white picture of it, but cannot recall if I've scanned the negative yet. You may also be aware that some BR Mk1 buffet/restaurant cars received Gresley pattern bogies as an experiment.There's some good reference material around if you are prepared to do some research.

[jbe]

I remember one being in the train to Fort William that also had the overnight sleeping cars from London in 1976, but obviously not Eastern region. However, I think I remember photos of them being used on the Kings Cross to Cambridge expresses, but when that finished I don't recall (the trains themselve finished around 1978-79, but I think they had Mk1 Buffets by then).

 

Edit: Sorry this was Thompson Buffet number 1705. The date was 8th September 1977

If no one else has a definitive answer I can check further over the weekend when I am back home.

 

Julian

[60B]

A number were transferred to the Southern Region to fill in gaps left by MK1 buffets been converted for EMU use.

[60526]

They also used to run into Kings Cross on IB66, the so call Cambridge Buffet Car Express, used to occasionally see one of the Thompson Buffets on this service and would concur seeing a Gresley buffet on the Harwich-Manchester, I think that I used to be more interested in vintage coaches in those days than class 56's!

[45156]

E9124E also got into blue/grey and was very often seen on the afternoon Glasgow-Leeds service (which means that there was a bit of Eastern Region running - but not much) first stop Kilmarnock then all to Carlisle via the G&SW and then over the S&C (I think also all stations to Keighley?) - it was certainly doing so in 1972 when I travelled back from uni to Kilmarnock on that service on Friday afternoons - I had a photo of this in service, and the train was almost always hauled by a Class 45 Peak - often (D)27 from Holbeck. I don't know when this working ended for that car, as I moved away from Scotland while it was still running. I did partake of the occasioanl glass of beer during that 30 minute run (at that time the pubs were not open in the afternoon, so it seemed a bit like cheating!). The crew were also a pair of real characters, and when I presented them with a print of "their" car, they adorned it with the legent "The Flying S@*t Inn and stuck it up behind the counter - were it remained for months.

 

I've lost the negs now, otherwise I'd print one up and post it.

 

BTW there was an article in one of the monthlies a couple of years back on what needs to be done to convert the current Hornby offering to the blue/grey version - ISTR that it needed quite a bit of surgery to the roof.

 

Stewart

[eastwestdivide]

I seem to recall reading in Modern Railways at the time of their demise that one worked the Harwich-Manchester regularly but it's 30+ years and I wasn't taking too much notice at the time (more interested in what the latest 56s were up to!)

Pretty sure you're right on the Harwich-Manchester. I seem to recall it was the very last one in service, and must have been after 1977, as that's when I started taking an interest.

[D6975]

Definitely one on the Harwich Boat train and one in the Bristol St Philip's Marsh excursion rake. The latter one went all over the place on day excursions, holiday preview trips etc.

[Natalie]

Can I suggest joining Robert Carroll's British Railway Coaching Stock yahoo group. There is a file in the archives that details all the known pre-nationalisation design passenger carrying stock that carried blue/grey. There are also some photographs of the Gresley design. One of the last vehicles to be withdrawn we have now on the GCR (9124E) which although it has been repainted in crimson/cream it remains bodily in as-withdrawn (ie rebuilt) condition. It is currently out of use awaiting some repairs. I may have some photos that are useful to you if require them.

 

Regarding the Fort William sleeper I have never heard of the use of Gresley buffets on this. Maybe things are getting muddled up a little with another service- The Night Limited. For a while (c1969-1975) two interesting vehicles were allocated to this service which ran nightly between Euston and Glasgow Central in both directions. Two sets of stock were provided to operate these all sleeper services. Also included was a buffet service- provided by two ex Pullman cars branded as 'Nightcap Bar' one running in each set. One was a MetCamm design Mk1 M354E - as made by Bachmann whilst the other was M310E which was a 1951 Pullman originally built for the Golden Arrow as 'Pegasus'. Of interest is that both cars carried conventional blue/grey livery with a full length red catering band and lettered 'Nightcap Bar'. Pegasus is the vehicle that was rebuilt and now works as part of the charter fleet.

[jbe]

Regarding the Fort William sleeper I have never heard of the use of Gresley buffets on this. Maybe things are getting muddled up a little with another service- The Night Limited.

 

 

Natalie,

 

I will check when I get home to Woking (currently typing this at Toronto airport) to see if my memory is playing tricks or not. Glad 60526 confirmed the Cambridge Buffet Car Express.

 

Julian

[60B]

Knew I wasn't mad:

 

http://www.semgonline.com/coach/gresbuf.html

[Pennine MC]

Regarding the Fort William sleeper I have never heard of the use of Gresley buffets on this. Maybe things are getting muddled up a little with another service- The Night Limited.

 

More likely I think, that Gresley RBs are being confused with the two Thompsons (1705/06, built for the 1948 'Flying Scotsman rake, AFAIK), which did work on ScR internal services until the mid/late 70s

 

The 1972 RCTS book lists 9115/22/23/24/28/29/31/32/35/95 (all E-prefix apart from '35, which was W); all would have likely been blue/grey by then, apart possibly from '95 which was a different design and withdrawn soon after.

[jbe]

More likely I think, that Gresley RBs are being confused with the two Thompsons (1705/06, built for the 1948 'Flying Scotsman rake, AFAIK), which did work on ScR internal services until the mid/late 70s

 

I think you are probably right....the number rings a bell even after all this time!

 

 

Julian

[pinzaboy]

I'm sure I remember seeing a Gresley blue/Grey Buffet in 'The Highwayman' rake which used to run from Newcastle to London (Finsbury Park, I think). The Highwayman went via the coast and was introduced to compete with cheap express Newcastle-London coaches on the A1.

 

tim

[johnw1]

E9131E recorded in the Harwich - Manchester formation at Manchester Piccadilly 3rd July 1976.

[Bob-65b]

More likely I think, that Gresley RBs are being confused with the two Thompsons (1705/06, built for the 1948 'Flying Scotsman rake, AFAIK), which did work on ScR internal services until the mid/late 70s

 

The 1972 RCTS book lists 9115/22/23/24/28/29/31/32/35/95 (all E-prefix apart from '35, which was W); all would have likely been blue/grey by then, apart possibly from '95 which was a different design and withdrawn soon after.

 

Don't forget Ian - two of the Gresley Buffets (at least 9132 and perhaps 9124 that I can remember) operated on an ad-hoc basis out of Cowlairs on both the Inverness & Aberdeen services - in Blue & Grey, so it's not beyond possibility that they may have been used on the West Highland, I don't remember them used there before they were withdrawn though after a very short period out of service 9132 went straight from the Carriage Sidings at York to the SRPS at Falkirk and was used within a week in their Railtour set, and for almost 10 years after - frequently on the West Highland.

 

Best bet would be to model them on the West Highland in the early 60s when just about every service had a Gresley buffet or Cafeteria Car! (I am biased though)

[Phill Dyson (onslaught832)]

If my memory serves me correctly, three Gresley buffets made it into blue/grey livery: 9128, 9131 and 9135. I remember seeing one on a Merrymaker excursion in September 1973. I took a black and white picture of it, but cannot recall if I've scanned the negative yet. You may also be aware that some BR Mk1 buffet/restaurant cars received Gresley pattern bogies as an experiment.There's some good reference material around if you are prepared to do some research.

 

I travelled regularly on Merrymakers originating from West Yorkshire in the mid seventies , they were usually 40,45 0r 47 hauled MK1's quite often with a Gresley Buffet .

 

Phill

[mark54]

The 1972 RCTS book lists 9115/22/23/24/28/29/31/32/35/95 (all E-prefix apart from '35, which was W); all would have likely been blue/grey by then, apart possibly from '95 which was a different design and withdrawn soon after.

The January 1995 issue of Backtrack magazine had an article on LNER Buffet Cars and contained the following weekend survey from October 1970:

 

9115 Kings Cross-Cleethorpes

9122 Liverpool St-Newmarket excursion

9123 Sheffield-St Pancras relief

9124 Kings Cross-Cambridge

9128 Stratford empty

9129 Grimsby-Blackpool excursion

9131 Stratford empty

9132 Harwich-Manchester

9135 York-Blackpool excursion

9195 ??“

1705 Finsbury Park-Newcastle ???Highwayman???

1706 Newcastle-Finsbury Park ???Highwayman???

 

There is also a photo of 9195 from July 1972 at Manchester Piccadilly in blue/grey. Although as Ian stated - originally to a different design - in re-built form, from the kitchen side it looks remarkably similar to a standard Gresley Buffet Car.

[scotcent]

In about 1978/79 (but it could have been a little later) I travelled from Edinburgh to Inverkeithing (on an Aberdeen train) in a blue/grey Gresley buffet car. At the time I understood that it and a sister vehicle, also on that route, were the last Gresley vehicles still in revenue service, and I believe they were taken out of service shortly afterwards. I distinctly remember the creaking, which was quite unlike the solidity of modern all steel vehicles. I also remember that the paintwork was very shabby, not apparently adhering well to the teak.

[SRman]

My only encounter with a Gresley buffet in fairly pristine blue and grey was at High Wycombe. It was parked in the bay platform in May or June 1984. I still have no idea why it was there, especially as I was under the impression that they were all out of service by then. Unfortunately, I didn't have my camera with me at the time. ? 

[Trevellan]

Interesting stuff. I had no idea that Gresley buffets worked on the Southern. A great excuse for a rake with a differnce.My thanks to Phill and Mark for their contributions. The Merrymaker Mystery Tour I travelled on was from Broxbourne and we ended up in Southport. I won't go OT, but the traction was notable. I think the buffet may well have been 9131, but I really must dig out the picture I took at Southport...

[Les Bird]

They also used to run into Kings Cross on IB66, the so call Cambridge Buffet Car Express, used to occasionally see one of the Thompson Buffets on this service......

 

Both Gresley and Thompson variants used to be worked into Liverpool Street for servicing. I recall seeing both types in the centre road between platforms 9 and 10 on a fairly regular basis. Somewhere I have colour slides of both.

[Pennine MC]

Don't forget Ian - two of the Gresley Buffets (at least 9132 and perhaps 9124 that I can remember) operated on an ad-hoc basis out of Cowlairs on both the Inverness & Aberdeen services -

 

Didnt forget Bob - I didnt actually know I certainly remember the B1-bogied RMBs (unusual at that time) from 1975 and '76 Railrovers

 

 

There is also a photo of 9195 from July 1972 at Manchester Piccadilly in blue/grey. Although as Ian stated - originally to a different design - in re-built form, from the kitchen side it looks remarkably similar to a standard Gresley Buffet Car.

 

Cheers Mark, even with that small snippet you just doubled my knowledge about that one

[coachmann]

I photographed them in blue/grey in North Wales and at Leeds in the later 1970's.....But finding the pictures is something else!

[Wizard of the Moor]

There's a photo on p37 of the latest Modern Locomotives Illustrated (180 - The 47s: Part 1) showing a Gresley Buffet in blue/grey approaching Paddington behind Brush Type 4 D1638 on 1st of June 1968. This apparently an ECS working that would form a departure to Birmingham.

 

Sorry, but the pic's too small to read the coach number

 

Cheers,

 

James