No more 21 pin sockets ?

[Ron Ron Ron]

More idle musings from Ron (well it's raining outside !).

 

................Having read the MPV and other threads in the "Products" section, I've been wondering how long Bachmann (and others) will continue to fit 21-pin connectors in brand new releases?

 

OK, I'll admit I'm being a little pedantic here......and I know that Bachmann's non-US models aren't covered by the NMRA....., however, they (the NMRA) no longer recommend the 21-pin DCC connector for fitting in new model designs.

While the 21-pin connector will continues to conform for legacy reasons, the NMRA recommends it should no longer be fitted in new designs, starting from 1st January 2010 onwards (over 20 months ago !).

Of course Bachmann, Hornby et al don't have to follow this recommendation, but as DCC is supposed to be about standardisation, I would expect the "spirit" of conformity to be generally followed pretty much as it is elsewhere.

 

The practical reality is that the replacement PluX fitted decoders have been rarer than "Hen's Teeth" until recently and there are still only a handful of these decoders on sale so far.

For this reason I can see why RTR manufacturers have been "slow off the mark" in adopting them, however I noticed that most German RTR manufacturers have opted to use PluX connectors in this year's all-new releases.

 

How long it will take for more PluX fitted decoders to become available is anybody's guess?

At the moment those decoder manufacturers who've already got them in their range only appear to have one, or possibly two models in their line-up and some of those aren't actually available yet!

 

Will next years new RTR model announcements reveal any progress in this area?

 

Do you care?

 

.

[noiseboy72]

Does this explain why 21 pin decoders are getting hard to find?

 

Trains 4U were out of stock, so ended up online.

[Ravenser]

Jan 2010 - about when Bachmann decided to fit 21 pins in everything new they released.

 

I have a dreadful suspicion they will carry on rigidly adding 21 pin sockets to every new release for a good few years. As the vendors of the only 21 pin decoder under £21, it tends to tie people to their decoders......

[Ron Ron Ron]

I have a dreadful suspicion they will carry on rigidly adding 21 pin sockets to every new release for a good few years. As the vendors of the only 21 pin decoder under £21, it tends to tie people to their decoders......

Mmmm, that had crossed my mind when I was tapping out my ramblings.

 

.

[johnd]

What about the Sapphire which can also be purchased for under £20 as well.

[Ravenser]

Only marginally . The Bachmann decoder is about £11 -£12

[blueeighties]

Try getting ahold of the flipping things though!

 

Regards,

Lee.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Try getting ahold of the flipping things though!

if you mean the 36-554's ?

They're incredibly popular Lee. I get the impression that soon as fresh stock comes in, they're snapped up pretty quickly.

[Oldddudders]

I have posted earlier today my puzzlement at the need for a 21-pin decoder in UK steam locos, and someone pointed out that it may suit Bachmann's standardisation to simply stick it everywhere. While (grudgingly) accepting that 8 pins may not be enough to model all the lighting permutations in modern locomotives, the jump to 21 is silly, and must be taking up precious space in HO/OO. Since I already find that some RTR DCC-ready locos have the socket in silly places, so end up hardwiring anyway, I suppose it doesn't matter too much!

 

Google was pretty unhelpful on PluX - can you elaborate a little?

[Edwin_m]

There's a PluX pinout, plus some other useful info on the why and wherefore of connectors, on the DCC Concepts site.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Google was pretty unhelpful on PluX - can you elaborate a little?

Hi Ian

There's been previous discussions about PluX on here, so I'm surprised if you're not aware of it.

In addition to Edwin's useful link to Richard's site, there's a little more detail in NMRA RP-9.1.1

There's also a good diagram at the bottom of this Lenz page.

 

In a nutshell (if that's possible), there was a long standing requirement for more than 8 pins.

As is the way with the workings of the NMRA DCC group, it takes a bit of time to agree and get things moving.

 

As described on Richard's site, ESU had a solution to hand from what they were doing for Marklin Digital. They and a couple of the German RTR manufacturers went ahead without the NMRA and adopted the 21 pin MTC connector for use in DCC and proposed this as the NMRA solution. Other European DCC decoder and RTR manufacturers joined in.

 

IIRC I think I'm right in saying that others, including the US manufacturers wanted a different 22 pin arrangement and there were other issues in the mix.

In the end the 21 pin was adopted by NMRA as a temporary fix and agreement was reached on a new standard connector that would be inter-compatible, allowing different sizes and numbers of pins to fit in any socket.

 

The resulting PluX connectors initially allowed 8, 16 & 22 pin PluX fitted decoders to be "downwards" compatible, e.g. a PluX8 will fit in a PluX16 or PluX22 socket etc.

They've since added a PluX12 to this mix.

My understanding is that the intention is to replace the current 6, 8 & 21 pin arrangements in the fullness of time, although they will still be defined in the RP's (recommended practices) for legacy purposes.

 

I hope that answers your question?

 

Regards

Ron

 

.

[Oldddudders]

Yes, thankyou. I am just a bit concerned that while the 8-pin socket can be impracticably placed, at least it's only 4-sockets long, while an 11-long socket simply must be even worse. A 4x5 rectangle would seem much more friendly in tiny locos, but this is less of a concern in the US, where few HO locos are anything like as small as some of the tiny tank locos we revere in OO. Serves me right for moving away from HO for the time being!

 

Oh, and I'm still a bit vague about what all those extra connections are going to do for the model in question?

[Ron Ron Ron]

.....I am just a bit concerned that while the 8-pin socket can be impracticably placed, at least it's only 4-sockets long, while an 11-long socket simply must be even worse.......

There is still the option of an 8 pin socket.

Pin-wise, there are 4 socket sizes and 4 decoder sizes in the PluX system. Smaller decoders should fit into all larger sockets as well as the one of matching size.

Have a look at the diagram at the bottom of the Lenz page I linked to above.

The smallest socket is the PluX8, which is 4 x 2 pins.

 

According to the NMRA site, the largest allowable decoder size for PluX8 is....

15.0mm x 9.00mm x 3.5mm - for N gauge

20.0mm x 11.0mm x 4.2mm - for H0 & TT (would also encompass our 4mm/ft scales)

 

By comparison a Lenz Silver Direkt Plus is 19.0mm x 13.0mm x 3.35mm and the same decoder with wires and a plug, Silver Plus, is 23.0mm x 16.5mm x 2.7mm

 

The PluX8 being a 7 pin connector, provides for 2 decoder functions and may be ideal for smaller locations; but then it's the RTR manufacturer's job to ensure the location of such fittings is practical and convenient for their customers.

 

 

[Edit: For those who can read French, here is the MOROP Norm NEM658 describing the standards for PluX connectors and decoder sizes.... NEM 659 ]

EDITEDIT:.

[NoggintheNog]

Its a well thought out solution, one assumes the plux 8 decoders will , to all intent and purpose, be identical to current 8 pin ones, for the vast majority of models you have to assume that would be sufficient anyway.

 

The higher pin count ones intrigue me, if only for the possibilities that manufacturers could use them for.

 

I'm thinking sound.

 

There is a line of US outline stuff, Broadway limited models, who market cut price sound engines, they achieve this by including all the sound gubbins and its controlling decoder, but not a motor decoder, you have to add one in.

 

Its a great idea, you can buy sound equipped diesels for £100(thats from UK suppliers without going into direct importing from discounters in the states) , just add in a £20 decoder and off you go. However, its not without issues, you essentially have two separate decoders running the loco, and it can be messy, certain types of consisting is impossible, and its in general a pain in the backside to get running right, once it is, though, they are fine, I have half a dozen of the things all told.

 

I'm wondering if with plusx 21 that sort of 'sound installed add your own decoder' would become easier electronically , which could perhaps impact on sound loco prices across all markets longer term, and that can only be good news for us.

[Ron Ron Ron]

.....one assumes the plux 8 decoders will , to all intent and purpose, be identical to current 8 pin ones.......

The PluX8 (NEM 658) is not compatible with the current NEM 652 8 pin socket arrangement.

The decoders themselves may be identical, but with simply a different type of 8 pin connector (just like some current decoders come in 2 or 3 different versions with different connectors fitted).

 

This isn't a problem as the older 6, 8 & 21 pin arrangements will continue to comply and decoder manufacturers will continue to supply decoders to satisfy the market for such legacy fitted models.

 

.

[Oldddudders]

I can see the benefit of having a 21-pin socket into which smaller pin configs will fit, and if there are still to be smaller sockets, then all may be well, and I can also see that a single orientation avoids one minor pitfall. I recognise that having the sound connectors within the socket reduces the DIY aspect for some, although that has never seemed difficult to me. Twin speakers must improve sound, with the option of pairing bass and treble, I assume.

 

Thanks for the rundown!

[TWG]

I'm wondering if with plusx 21 that sort of 'sound installed add your own decoder' would become easier electronically , which could perhaps impact on sound loco prices across all markets longer term, and that can only be good news for us.

 

I don't think that it would. If the sound decoder is separate then it is not connected to the motor decoder, so the socket for the latter is irrelevant. The Plu12 and larger have connections for a loudspeaker built in (pins 15 and 17) but no provision for any external sound device.

 

The idea of a separate sound decoder is not new. CT Elektronik have made one for some years. Uhlenbrock and Dietz have offered for some time add on sound modules, which are connected to the motor decoder via a SUSI interface. Digitrax have something similar. There is no significant saving; simply dividing motor control from sound does not reduce costs. If Broadway can sell sound locos so cheaply then either they are content with a smaller profit margin or the sound is not of the best quality.

 

It seems likely that PluX is the system of the future, at least for 00/HO (the Next 18 is better for N but has not yet, as far as I am aware, got beyond a paper specification). All the major European decoder manufacturers have PluX decoders: Lenz and CT have Plu12, Zimo and Uhlenbrock have a choice of 16 or 22. The exception is ESU, who may wish to stick with the 21 pin that they invented. They have recently persuaded MOROP to change the specification of NEM660 to replace the outputs originally designed for the requirements of the Märklin Sinus motor with something more appropriate for DCC.

 

There seems to be a widespread misconception that the NMRA works out standards which it then publishes for manufacturers to follow. In fact all significant developments have been an acceptance of existing designs, mostly from Europe, and formalising their use in the USA. The 8 pin socket started with Roco and the 21 pin with ESU; the idea of PluX originated with someone in Fleischmann. Märklin marketed Bernd Lenz's system, which later in revised form became known as DCC, about 13 years before the NMRA adopted it.

 

Are there any American PluX decoders?

[Ron Ron Ron]

.....The exception is ESU, who may wish to stick with the 21 pin that they invented....

You must have missed these then?

 

item no. 54616 - LokPilot V4.0 PluX12 (MultiProtocol version)

item no. 55400 - LokSound V4.0 PluX12

 

Kuehn have also announced a PluX16 version of their T65 decoder (item no. 82760), plus....

Tillig are also selling the Lenz Silver PluX12 Plus under their own name...... 43432_b.jpg

 

Incidentally, Uhlenbrock have PluX decoders in 3 different pin sizes, 12, 16 & 22.

 

 

Are there any American PluX decoders?

I'm not aware of any yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if TCS were to bring one or two out in the near future. They're catering to the European market with their first 21 pin model and have now installed RailCom capability in a number of their decoders. They may be less inward looking than the likes of Digitrax and SoundTraxx.

 

.

[NoggintheNog]

 

 

 

I'm not aware of any yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if TCS were to bring one or two out in the near future. They're catering to the European market with their first 21 pin model and have now installed RailCom capability in a number of their decoders. They may be less inward looking than the likes of Digitrax and SoundTraxx.

 

.

 

I've not seen any either, and the big names, walthers/proto , Athearn and Atlas are still very much in the 8 pin plug, or quite often, built in jst harness(so you just plug the bare decoder onto the harness and your done) way of having locos 'dcc ready'.

 

Bear in mind sound is much more mainstream in the US market than here, and more or less all output, barring the economy lines of atlas and athearn , have factory fitted sound as an option, so the market is very much geared to the sound decoders available, the new QSI , and soundtraxx, are both 8 pin , or alternatively come as complete board replacements to drop into a loco.

[Donw]

Now which of the two wires needed for DCC go into the 21 pins of the socket? As most of my stuff is kit or scratchbuilt I hardwired them in to start with I did wonder whether I should have been fitting sockets to make decoder replacement easy. I think we have the answer it won't be easy. At some stage we are going to have problems. SNAFU

Don

[Ron Ron Ron]

I can't see why anything should be different for you Don.

Decoders that come with wires only, or with wires and a plug will probably be available for years to come.

If you want to fit sockets, then the smallest is PluX8 with 7 pins and there are the legacy NEM-651 6 pin & NEM-652 8 pin sockets, plus the 9 pin JST.

 

Another solution for hardwiring is to use a bit of circuit strip board as an interface, e.g. ....... http://web.archive.org/web/20030206195324/http://electricnose.co.uk/dcc/photos/sj036792.jpg

 

 

.

[GoingUnderground]

 

.......It seems likely that PluX is the system of the future, at least for 00/HO (the Next 18 is better for N but has not yet, as far as I am aware, got beyond a paper specification).

 

Also you cannot have seen this from ESU's 2011 price list:

 

54686 LokPilot micro V4.0, DCC, Next18 interface

54898 LokSound micro V4.0 «Universal sound - ready for programming», with Next18 connector, Gauge: N,TT

 

I don't know if they are actually on sale yet, but it does look like they're in the pipeline.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Kuehn have also announced a Next18 version of their N45 decoder.....

 

item no. 82350 - N45-18

 

As seen on this dealers website here.

 

.

[GoingUnderground]

I tried to find out more about the Next 18 interface when I first came across it, but there seemed to be very little about it.

 

So it looks like we're going to end up, at least in the short term, with NEM651, NEM652, MTC21, Plux in all its variants 8/12/16/22, and Next18, not forgetting the bare lead option, and the direct plug-in types. I can see more manufacturers producing 2 sizes of decoder for the size critical scales, N/TT and H0/00 with a JST or similar standardised socket on the decoder circuit board and supplying with each decoder a range of flyleads with a JST style connector on one end and the relevant connector on the other to suit all the different sockets just to keep their product range and stock levels down to manageable proportions. Isn't this what Hornby have done with the Sapphire?

 

For Plux to be a true standard don't all locos need to be fitted with the 22 pin Plux socket so they are capable of accepting whatever Plux plug your chosen decoder is supplied with? This would need the same space requirements as the MTC21 connector. Or have I totally missed the point of Plux?

[TWG]

The specification of the Next18 can be found at http://www.vhdm.de/i...d=53&Itemid=56. Click on the link to a pdf attachment at the bottom of the page.

 

I am glad to be corrected about ESU, Kühn and Next18, as this supports my contention about the way things are moving.

 

My guess is that locos will be fitted with the full Plu22 socket (to widen choice of decoder and for standardisation of parts) where there is sufficient space; only very little ones will receive a smaller version.