An urgent query for Wrenn and Dublo Experts out there...........

[bertiedog]

I have a very urgent query for a friend, we have an A4 Sir Nigel Gresley No7 in for a service, a Wrenn Production in approx early 1980's or late 70's, with all metal wheels on the Locomotive, but plastic wheels on the Tender.

 

The Tender is marked with the moulding Tri-ang Hornby with an R number, R 851/6 Made In Britain......is this the right tender? as it appears to be a Margate Production.......... were Wrenn at Basildon using the Tri-ang A4 tender by that point in their chequered history instead of the old Dublo unit?

 

Any input would be appreciated, details on Wrenn are a minefield for all but the experts on these Locos.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Many Thanks, so far I think it is a replacement, that is obvious from the Number, but the query is did Wrenn do this themselves? or was it a later exchange by an owner. It makes a vast difference in value to a collector, (not me), who relies on originality as far as practical.

I well know the Old Binns road Hornby Dublo tender in it's various guises, but when I saw this loco did not at first look under the tender, apart from noticing the plastic wheels, which had a decidedly Tri-ang look to them.

 

I just assumed at first that Margate, Lines Brothers, had supplied the tender to Wrenn, it appears to have the correct Dublo transfers (not hot pressed or shiny like Tri-ang in the 1970's), although the Garter Blue paint colour is very slightly different ( it is real paint, not plastic). This could be explained by the metal body on the loco and plastic on the tender.

But did Wrenn themselves do this?

 

And if it is a Hornby (Margate) tender, what period did they make a decent painted one from? and did they supply the then independent Wrenn firm with a tender for the A4 in the 1980's?

 

Sorry if this sounds very pedantic, it is research for a friend and it all affects collectors rather deeply on such points as this.

 

Stephen.

[kenbury]

hi i use to own one it was fitted with a tri-ang tender [ wrenn being owned by the same company ] and was a better model of A4 tender

[johnb]

I came across this sort of thing a year or so ago. A Wrenn loco (I THINK a West Country) was being sold with a plastic tender, which was assumed to be a replacement, therefore being sold relatively cheaply. However it was snapped up and the buyer said something to the effect that the seller didn't know what he was selling as it was a genuine Wrenn model produced late on in the Wrenn production.

 

I don't know enough about Wrenn to know the rights and wrongs of this, but thought that I would just mention this.

 

Sorry to add to the minefield.

[bertiedog]

Many thanks for the thoughts so far, more appreciated, the reason I did not spot it straight away was the close match in appearance, the transfers match the Hornby/Wrenn type very closely, which if it was Tri-ang Hornby it should not, they used different transfers and lining, unless this tender is a quite modern one, but then would the modern Transfers look so much like the Wrenn/Dublo ones?

 

The Garter Blue is fractionally different, but I have seen worse on brand new production ones!

 

The rear of the tender is pure Tri-ang, no provision for Dublo, but the rest is so well finished it does not look like Margate! The Coupling hook on the Loco fits the tender perfectly etc, so is this tender one that Wrenn Basildon bought in from Hornby Margate in the later 1980's??

 

I did know a lot of the background of Wrenn etc, I worked in the model industry and visited the factory on several occasions. Knowing the firm it well be they bought in the tender themselves, but I really need it confirmed that this sort of thing happened or firm advice that it did not, it affects the potential value of a near mint locomotive to an avid collector..

[ozzyo]

Hello Stephen,

 

I don't think that Triang/ Hornby did an A4 in the late70s early 80s. IIRC the only loco that they did with an L.N.E.R. 8 wheel tender was an A3 this was normal moulded in a green plastic. I'll have to get the books out to check all this up. Or you could try the Wrenn collectors site and see what that has to say.

 

OzzyO.

[Sir Hadyn]

I had a black Triang/Wrenn A4 with NE on the tender, and it had a plastic Triang tender. Was this part of the "Triang-Wrenn" production period...?

[bertiedog]

Seem to have sorted it, Wrenn used Tri-ang tender mouldings decorated at Basildon.It is an un-streamlined valence front, so presumably an A3 tender, but used with the A4's that Wrenn made. It matches all the pictures I can trace of Wrenn tenders, apart from late ones where they used a slightly different moulding, and metal wheels. The code for Tri-ang Hornby was simply left in place it seems, although a collector friend says both Tri-ang Hornby marked and Wrenn marked exist.

It explains the paint finish and the matching transfers, done at Basildon.

Thanks for any replies, well appreciated, details for collectors are a dreadful minefield!!!...with Wrenn, even the position of the sellotape of the box is vital!!!!

Stephen

[kevinlms]

 

Thanks for any replies, well appreciated, details for collectors are a dreadful minefield!!!...with Wrenn, even the position of the sellotape of the box is vital!!!!

Stephen

 

 

Do you mean genuine Sellotape TM or 'cough' some el cheapo inferior brand?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sellotape

 

Chances are that if Wrenn was still in production they would be using something from the local $2.00 or pound shop, such is world today.

 

Perhaps this belongs in the "Grumpy" thread?

 

Kevin Martin

[Andy Y]

Do you mean genuine Sellotape TM or 'cough' some el cheapo inferior brand?

 

[OT]Try getting a high price for one tied up with Durex. [/OT]

[Wayne Rite]

 

[OT]Try getting a high price for one tied up with Durex. [/OT]

Andy,

 

You just brought back some memories for me, when I first arrived in Australia in 1967, I worked for a Pump manufacturer in Sydney, and one day one of the office girls came down to the store and asked for Durex. As a very young man recently arrived in the country, asked by a very attractive young lady (they are all atractive in OZ) for something that I knew as something else would have been a sight to behold, I don't stutter but I did a very good impression until one of the other guys called out "She means Sellotape!'

 

Cheers

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I had that experience the other way around. Newly assigned young aussie woman in our office, on what must have been her third day in the UK, and after being introduced to the (all male) team opened with, "Can one of you guys help me, I need a lot of durex before I can get started?".

 

She was a very popular team member for her whole stay...

[Il Grifone]

Upstairs I have both Tri-ang and Wrenn A4 tender bodies. I'll dig them out and report back. from what I remember they are similar, but different. Both are corridor tenders, but one lacks the corridor. I think the Wrenn version should sit on the Dublo casting and the Tri-ang on some ghastly plastic horror.

 

The Wrenn and Dublo West Country tenders are the same AFAIK. I acquired a Wrenn moulding to replace the one on my Dublo 'Barnstable', which had been multilated (Memo to self - finish repainting her!

[Il Grifone]

Found them! The Wrenn tender is the one with no corridor. The rear has a gangway and 'porthole', but there is no corridor beside the water filler, which is rather undernourished, like the Dublo one. There are two versions of the Tri-ang* tender, which have the corridor and a lower water space. The versions differ in one having a semi-circular streamlined front, while the other is straight across, like the Wrenn tender. The Wrenn has a shovel moulded in a tool space on the left hand side. There are no maker's marks, but there is a spigot for a screw (like Dublo SD6 wagons). The sides have also warped inwards slightly. The Tri-ang ones are stamped inside with the part numbers R351- 010 for the streamlined and R845 -010 for the straight version. The sides have warped less than the Wrenn, probably because the plastic is thicker. The Tri-ang tenders are wider than the Wrenn one as well.

 

* Read 'Tri-ang' to include 'Tri-ang/Hornby' and 'Hornby'. Dublo is of course proper 'Hornby,.

 

Later Wrenn came in a pale sickly shade of green (and various horrors like blue Castles, Southern Railway liveried rebuilt West Countries* and vari-coloured R1s and N2s etc.)

 

* Perhaps not as bad as masquerading as a Merchant Navy!

 

The Tri-ang/Wrenn period pre-dated the Tri-ang/Hornby A3s and probably used up stocks of Dublo, at least initially.

[bertiedog]

Careful examination shows the tender to be from Tri-ang components used by Wrenn, the plastic is green, and it is an A3 tender with the porthole, and corridor conections, spray painted with Garter Blue, and has Wrenn/Dublo transfers for the LNER which match the locomotive closely. I am told this all ties in with Wrenn practice, as of course they were owned by Lines Brothers. It ties in with the production period, which must be about late1980's, Knowing the slow stock turnover at Wrenn I suspect they used stuff marked Tri-ang well into the later years.

The underside clearly shows the Tri-ang R 851/6 number in place on the tender chassis moulding.

The loco box is a replacement, it should really be a Tri-ang Wrenn period box.

[Il Grifone]

That's the Wrenn moulding I referred to above. It is of course not impossible it was made for them at Margate, though I believe they split from Hornby at the time of the collapse of the Lines empire.

[stewartingram]

From distant memory, I recall that when Wrenn joined the Triang group (apply correct names as required, it gets very confusing, but i think you will get my drift) The HD tender (metal) was superceded by the Triang version (plastic) from the A3 (at least the body, possibly chassis too, though I never handled one so cannot be sure of the latter). Don't foget that the A3 had both corridor & non-corridor versions though. There were comments in the mags at the time about this, either RM or MRC I guess as those were the ones I bought.

 

Stewart

[Wayne Rite]

And don't forget, for a time the Transcontinental 4.6.2 (based on a Canadian loco) had the same A3/A4 tender which was available in Australia, all I seem to remember was that it had the number 2334 (I stand to be corrected) and that the tender positively monstered the Hornby / Tri-ang Original loco body. I seem to recall in one of Pat Hammonds tomes that this was in response to the Australian / New Zealand importer asking for a loco that resembled the last of the local (for us) steam locos then running down in the face of the all conquering diesels.

 

There you go Andy, very nicely back on topic and away from frivilous recollections of the difference between UK and Australian names for the same thing!

 

Bertiedog, just keep the questions coming, there is no such thing as a stupid question, just stupid answers, as my old English Teacher used to say.

 

Keep up the good work, I just love your practical advise and the way that you tackle the building of mechanisms, all very intricate and in the tradition in the great scientific instrument makers of the past John Harrison for one (or should I say the immediate present!).

 

Cheers

[sagaguy]

I seem to recall that the last issue of the H/D 2rail City of London & the rare 3rail City of Liverpool from Meccano used plastic tenders & plastic wheels.!!!

Ray.

[bertiedog]

I seem to recall that the last issue of the H/D 2rail City of London & the rare 3rail City of Liverpool from Meccano used plastic tenders & plastic wheels.!!!

Ray.

Yes Hornby,(Binns Road), had moved on from the tinplate body and die-cast chassis( with two bogies to get it around the tight Dublo curves), by the end of production, it seems the tender to may be a Dublo moulding, but altered to fit the Tri-ang base by Wrenn, saving the cost of an updated chassis.

 

Some of the stock of parts blessed upon them by Lines were huge and had to to be used up, other vital things were missing and had to be quickly replaced as cheaply to Wrenn as possible.I think a lot of the Wrenn products were a bit of Pick and Mix as far as parts went.

 

I have had to re-touch the Garter blue a bit on the tender edges, and handrails ends, where it is either worn or never finished properly by Wrenn when spray painted. the black on the Loco body is typically over sprayed a bit, they used steel templates to do the spraying, and they were not a close fit!!

 

It's a pity they have so over thickness painting on the die casting, if it is stripped, and detailed with brass fittings and decent handrails, the whole re-wheeled loco, with larger scale wheels, brakes etc, looks so much better. The three pole motor runs fine, and there are five pole alternatives.

 

The tender is not too bad, the water dome is small, and there is no roof to the corridor, (easy to fit). it needs brakes, but they are well hidden! This example has the famous Tri-ang self adjusting back to back compensated wheels, (loose on the axles!)

 

Many thanks for the information provided, with the research it has confirmed a Tri-ang tender chassis is "right"for a Basildon product from Wrenn.

I resisted firmly and with strong resolve, the sellotape jokes thread!!!

[Il Grifone]

AFAIK Dublo 'Cities' had plastic tender bodies and wheels (they insisted on flangeless wheels for the centre set, but I find all flanged are OK even on Dublo curves). The 'A4s' (And the 'Duchesses'), on the other hand, always had tinplate tenders. Plastic tenders came in with Wrenn. I would be interested to hear of evidence to the contrary (ie a plastic A4 body in Dublo green* with Dublo emblem and lining).

 

* This is a darker green than Wrenn's anaemic colour and the same as BR green. I find a it's a perfect match for Humbrol GWR loco green (apart from the period in the early 70s when they had a batch of a rather khaki shade).

 

Incidently and irrelevantly Tri-ang used the HD tender underframe casting for their streamlined 'Coronation'.tender. (Incorrectly as, coming from the 8F, it has rivets (overscale) and rear steps.)

 

The Tri-ang variable back to back wheels are awful, but strangely seem to stay on the rails. apart from the early acetate ones, which have warped of course.

[Wayne Rite]

Not quite right, the plastic tenders for the City of London came in when the loco was re-launched by Meccano in 2 rail with a newly tooled diecast loco body and a plastic self coloured body in 1959!

 

Michael Fosters book 'Hornby Dublo Trains' records that it was announced in the December 1959 'Meccano Magazine' which also said there was to be a new motor, but to be honest the 'new' motor was just a tidied up version of the old one.

 

Of course, that was the last time the model was upgraded until the Wrenn Bros got hold of it, and then all sorts of variations became the norm, making it a collectors nightmare!

[Il Grifone]

Isn't that what I said? 'Cities' had plastic tender bodies and 'Duchesses' tinplate. 'City of London was released in 1959 with the 2-rail range and 'City of Liverpool' some time later (possibly when 'Montrose' stocks had been cleared or at least reduced).

 

The only difference in the motor was the oil retaining bearing in place of the earlier type. The chassis block was slightly different to correct the displaced drivers and allow the fitting of the later (inferior) cylinder/slide bar/valve gear assembly. I was going to fit a 'Duchess' chassis to my Dublo 'City' body and got as far as getting it to fit, using a made up bracket at the rear, but then I acquired a proper (almost - I believe it's actually Wrenn!) chassis block.