That age old decision of scale!

[60163]

Evening all!

 

I now find myself venturing into the timeless considerations of scale. Countless threads for and against certain ones exist, but in need of advice, I come to you for suggestions.

 

Living in the United States, modelling British railways are almost unheard of. The area in which I live is apparently barren of modelers to begin with, with no dedicated stores less than a two and a half hour's drive away. How I wound up with an old, playworn Hornby train set as an American child in the 1990's I'm not particularly sure (especially considering it was from the mid-seventies, being a goods set with an ex-Triang 0-4-0) but ever since I've had the English modeling bug and after longing for a model railway throughout childhood, at college age I've decided it's time to finally move forwards.

 

I live in a small upstairs apartment. I currently have available an area 3' deep by 10'6" long (roughly 0.9 x 3.2m), but I'd preferably keep the depth as minimal as possible in regards to scale, with an ideal maximum depth of two feet or less. Although I plan on being here for as long as possible, I am in no certain terms in a 'permanent' home, and thus portability is a must. The layout may exceed size, whether in whole or in sections, of being transported by car, as a moving van would be necessary for moving house as is and I have no plans to exhibit, but nevertheless needs to be able to be brought in sections, if not whole, through the average doorway, carried by no more than two people, but preferable one.

 

Save for some flexi-track, ballast and scenic supplies I have experimented with on scrap wood, my only experiences are through a few years of armchair modeling. I plan on using Peco electrofrog pointwork, with powered frogs and either Tortoise or Cobalt point motors, depending on how comfortable I feel with soldering after practicing. As space is somewhat restricted and I'd to do something different from the childhood plain circle of 15" radius HO track, I have taken interest in shunting puzzles such as the Inglenook and Timesaver types.

 

Influenced in no doubt by my childhood, I have a fondness for small stock. Although of course, by my namesake I adore the A1 Trust's fantastic creature, such an elegant beast should never be relegated to the shunting operations I have in mind! The largest of stock I'd think of using regardless of scale would be something along the lines of a Collett 0-6-0 or an Ivatt Class 2/'Mickey Mouse.' All manner of variety of tank engines and small diesels are included as well, as I have a fairly broad interest era wise stretching from pre-Grouping until the early 60's. I doubt I would be using much passenger equipment, except perhaps 4-wheeled stock if modeling an earlier era. Most would undoubtedly be either private/Big Four short wheelbase stock or BR standard wagons dependent on aforementioned undecided era.

 

I want to pursue automatic uncoupling - I want to be able to operate the layout from a completely 'third person' perspective, with nothing but control panel and controller. I have been disappointed to see all the hoops one must jump through to convert to Kadee couplings in OO scale - but being that I am starting from a completely fresh perspective, would I encounter the same difficulties with purchasing brand new stock?

 

As I live in the US, second-hand equipment is practically non-existent, and few eBay sellers are an option thanks to high shipping prices (save for Peter's Spares.) I have no experience kitbuilding of any type and unfortunately have no one in my family or circle of friends to consult for railway assistance.

 

A more concise list of my desires is as follows:

• 10'6" of length to work with; ideal 2' depth or less. "Shunting plank" type.
  
• Portability is a necessity. Must be of reasonable construction.
  
• Electrofrog with powered frogs and point motors; no greater than 6 points
  
• Short locos, short stock.
  
• Hands-free uncoupling
  
• Ideally costing no more than $1,000 USD total (600 GBP)
  

​My first consideration was of course OO scale due to the price and wide variety of stock. However, I am disheartened by the apparent unease of fitting magnetic couplings without some sort of modification. I would hope to keep stock in a 'resale value' condition as with the recent passing of my father I have become the 'man' of the household and should desperation arise the selling of stock could become a possibility. Other than that issue, I have no qualms with OO as it was a part of my childhood.

 

I have seen the immense progress made in the past few years with N gauge and am interested, even if I currently have the space to spare (why take up more than you need, after all?) However, again, the lack of magnetic couplings has been discouraging. However, with Dapol's NEM knuckles set to debut the end of next month, should I consider N gauge? The apparent 'plug and play' appeals to me.

 

I have read and considered O gauge as well, as I apparently have the space. I have read the O Gauge Guild's Small Layouts .pdf, and have read of Kadees being fitted, which are much less of a bother seeing as most stock is kit built anyway, as opposed to modifying RTR. However, what worries me is my complete inexperience with kit building - and the lack of physical assistance in my area should I hit a speed bump. Price is also a factor - it would cost no less than $250 (150 GBP) to get a loco running, not to mention painted, which is a quarter of my budget when the other scales could easily afford me a loco and a good deal of stock to compliment. I'm not against the idea - merely wary.

 

 

 

Given my wishes, what would the good people of RMweb suggest I do? I welcome all suggestions!

Mike

[frobisher]

If you stick with modern 00 by and large, the coupling issue "goes away" as NEM sockets are becoming universal, and these days are mostly at the correct height for the Kadees.

 

Similarly, N gauge has come on leaps and bounds and would be my choice for the space you have. Farish's range is in transition though and quite a few items are not fitted with NEM pockets etc, but most of the good stuff is Until now we've lacked a decent alternative coupling to put in there and I think Dapol may have come to the rescue here (though if Bachmann deliever on their NEM mounted knuckle then there may be a practial alterantive that is likely to compatible(ish) with the Microtrains coupling.

[brossard]

Hi Mike, it can be frustrating trying to do British railway modelling in NA.

 

I've been doing 00 for over 25 years and there have been trials and tribulations in that time. Nowadays though we are spoiled for choice with loads of great models available. I think most modellers agree that DCC is the way forward.

 

You can do a reasonable "shunting plank" in the space you have. You'll need a 3' fiddle yard.

 

Shunting locos that spring to mind are the Class 08. Both Bachmann and Hornby do very good models of this. Bachmann's Class 04 is also very good.

 

As far as coupling, I second frobisher's comment about NEM pockets. It is dead easy to install Kadee couplings (No 17 thru 20) - you just have to watch out that the height is correct. If you keep the old couplings, your stock can be resold intact if that becomes necessary.

 

You mention magnetic coupling. I don't bother - a bamboo skewer works well and uncoupling can be done anywhere. In fact I chop off the bent bit under the coupling.

 

In terms of cost both 00 and N are comparable in price I think. You could blow your entire budget on 1 loco in 0 gauge though. Everything in 0 seems to be about 4 times the price for the same thing in 00.

 

The lack of hobby shops in your area shouldn't be an issue for you. You probably wouldn't find very many shops, if any, selling British stuff in a major US city. I buy most of my stuff from Hatton's. This is probably the most economical route as well since they remove the VAT (20%) for overseas buyers and shipping is usually very reasonable. There are places in NA that sell British stuff but the prices are usually marked up a lot. Check this site for all kinds of resources:

 

http://home.ca.inter.net/~brmna/

 

John

[edcayton]

Two things come to mind. Firstly, as I have said in another thread recently, I would be very inclined to do 0 gauge if starting from scratch.

Your problems about buying stock etc would be less as you would need much less of it! Also, it seems to me that the resale value of 0 gauge stuff seems much higher.

 

Ed

[Kenton]

Sadly a budget of $1000 will disappear very quickly in any scale. Especially when you start to add on all the track, and extras. I think 7mm is out of reach unless you scratch build everything.

 

Given those criteria I think I would stick with 4mm and keep it a very simple FY end to BLT end layout (maybe a selected prototype to add interest. Short locos and short stock really pushes you into late BR or earlier - ie steam.

The choice of coupling forced by not wishing to "adapt" the stock would stop me dead. I think the good old K coupling just looks so wrong on early stock for me. But it is a compromise you may put up with.

 

Good Luck

[Kris]

As much as I am a 2mm man looking at your requirements I would say that 4mm is the way that you should be going. 7mm is going to be rather tricky on the budget that you have.

[t-b-g]

You can do much more than a shunting plank in 4mm scale in that space, if you want to try for something with a bit more operational scope. I have built a complete operational layout with a station and a goods yard plus a fiddle yard in 8' and designing a layout with say, a 3' 3" traverser, would allow for a 3 (shortish) coach train and a tank or a small tender loco. The remaining 7' 3" would be plenty for a terminus station. Peter Denny's Leighton Buzzard Mk 2 was a complete layout in 4mm scale in approx 6' length before he found more room and put an extension on it.

 

Good luck with whatever you do but if I was in that position, I would go for 4mm scale, with mechanical point operation (to save money on motors etc) and a "Spratt & Winkle" type coupling (see Wizard models website for supplies - the one sold for 3mm scale is even better in 4mm scale as it is that bit less obvious but I make my own now from wire). This is much less obtrusive than Kadees and much cheaper too.

[beast66606]

I give you some advice I was given a long time ago ...

 

Decide on what you want to model, then decide on the scale which makes it (best) happen in the space you have available.

 

 

PS Quality remains long after the price is forgotten ...

[nzgresleyfan]

Everyone seems to be pointing you towards 4mm and I would also agree with the recommendation.

We have a similar situation here in NZ, not a lot available off the shelf and what is is quite expensive; local retailers have to work hard and reduce their profit in order to compete with the overseas companies providing mail order.

My finances are tight too so to get the most out of my money most of what I buy is second hand through our own version of Ebay. With so many high quality new models being released onto the market now people are moving their older stuff on; I enjoy snapping it up and "individualising" it a bit.

You also note that you have no kit building experience. To that I would say "don't let that stop you!" Again, to get more value out of my money I buy and build a lot of rolling stock kits, they keep me occupied for quite some time and I end up with something a bit different to what a lot of the other blokes bring along to the clubrooms.

If you are a bit nervous about kit building I'd recommend giving it a go anyway; invest in a couple of the cheaper options, see how you go with them and if you enjoy it have a look at what else is out there. Personally, I'm intimidated by the etched brass kits but am looking forward to getting my hands on one!

Finally, whilst your access to people with similar interests seems limited I would fully advocate using forums such as this one to share ideas and get inspiration. I sometimes spend hours here just looking at what others are doing, I'm sure that many others here do the same. Another thing that I'm sure of is that there are plenty of modellers on this site who are very happy to give you any advice and feedback that you ask for, no matter what issue might crop up.

All the best with your decision, I look forward to seeing how you get on.

Rob.

[Guest 40-something]

I second the advice on 4mm. Most new models from the past 4/5 (maybe longer?) years have NEM pockets so fitting Kadee No's 17-20 just clip into place so no modification is necessary. No. 17 gives the closest gap and if your points are no sharper than Peco medium length then you can get away with No.17 & 18's on most of your stock. I use Kadees on my stock - a mixture of 5, 17-20's depending on the individual item of stock.

 

Most major retailers in the UK (Hattons, Rails of Sheffield, Gaugemaster, Signal Box etc etc) will take the 20% VAT off the price for international orders so you will most probably save buying from the UK than from a US/CAN retailer.

 

If you decide 4mm and need any more advice then this forum is invaluable and please feel free to PM me!

[Steven B]

Shunting/switching in N Gauge is perfectly possible. The newer British N Gauge models are on a par with the OO equivalents (and in some cases a lot better - Hornby/Lima class 67 of Dapol one?).

 

 

N Gauge models are obviously smaller and lighter than OO or O gauge which should make international postage less expensive!

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

[Donw]

I don't know where you are in the US there are some 0 gauge modellers following British prototypes out there ( probably other scales too but cannot advise) one group is based in the LA area. Admittedly the cost would be restrictive. 4mm is probably best.

Don