Health & Safety at exhibitions

[Talltim]

And I'm sure that their employer has done an RA that covers streetsweepers, and the interactions that they are likly to have with a member of the public going about their normal business.

 

J

But that is different from the member of the public doing an RA. In the analogy the hall owner is the the council, who does an RA for the activities of the hall employee (streetsweeper) and the exhibitor is the member of the public.

[Andy Y]

Can we please stick to the intent of the topic and not keep going off on hypothetical and largely irrelevant tangents please?

 

Risk assessments are used to minimise risk to operatives, other persons and property and if they have been asked for they're obviously part of someone's risk management process and we don't necessarily have any factual information to query why that may be the case.

[Talltim]

Would it not be worth the the OP asking the exhibition organisers how their liability would be effected by completing the requested RA? If they can't answer, then that would certainly give me cause to reconsider attending.

[roundhouse]

I think I know which exhibition this form is for as I had one last year and only a few days ago got one for next years show.

 

Last year I listed just a few points such as keeping any mains power leads tidy and out of the way to reduce a tripping hazard, bags cables and tools under the layout or table again to reduce tripping, sharp objects to be kept in the toolbox when not in use etc. Whilst we didn't have any incidents, we didn't get any response form the organisers asking for more info.

 

 

Ian

[The Stationmaster]

 

And that is down to the Venue / Organiser to Risk Assess - Its theri hall they know what to look for.....what they don't know is the potential risks of each individual layout, which is why they ask the owners of said layout to RA them.,.......

Exactly so Mickey and I am surprised that some of this debate is still going round the same never decreasing circles that it was on Page 1. Some of this stuff - especially this part of it - remains blindingly simple but as long as people decide to look for irrelevant loopholes in the HASAWA or ignore the venue owner's/insurer's or whoever's right to have a policy of their own regarding risk assessment and the importation of potential risks we will continue to rotate in useless, very repetitive, circles. The boss's post said it all.

[Black Sheep]

 

It would also be interesing to know the figures for model railway related accidents.

 

depends how many cliche car accident's are modeled!

 

On a serious note, and my experience of RA is for Scouting which is essentially, what hazards are there, how can we remove hazards.

 

for example there is a busy road at one side of the playing field we use with the 8-10 year olds, so we move as far across the field as we can and position a leader between children and road.

 

what you are wanting to show in the risk assesment is that you have considered posibilities and done what you can about them to minimize mishap and risk

 

examples of this are:

 

wireing that has to dangle under the board to bridge between sections could be a hazard if someone needs to go under the boards - solution, tape up in place to be as out of way as possible.

 

railway wobbles a bit if knocked - put up barriers to prevent public bumping into it, add weights to anchor the layout

 

etc

[Bernard Lamb]

There seem to be some cross wires between H & S legislation requirements and risk assessments requested by people running events. Many activities these days ask for an RA. Cycling events have them. It's just a simple matter of making a few notes regarding what you can expect on your ride. Just as easy to do for a model railway exhibition. For crying out loud you don't have to try and emulate the American Constitution or Magna Carta. It's simply a case of writing a few short notes about what you normally do. If done with care it does provide a handy tool for dealing with any unwanted persons. I am sure most people can think of a clause or two to put in the RA to achieve that result.

Bernard

[298]

Reference to insurance is interesting, as it is often said that change for safety's sake is seldom made without hindsight from a previous incident. My understanding (and please correct me without going too off topic), is most events have insurance but claims are rare, and then usually only for theft or damage of stock. I have heard of an item of clothing being ripped on a barrier, but even then it isn't something that most people would even think about claiming damages for.

 

Therefore, I can only assume that most H&S breaches go unreported or seldom result in damage or consequential results for those involved, and model railway exhibitions in their own regulating way are quite a safe place to be. My current employers have an escalating problem through the misuse of barrier tape to cordon off an area and employees walking through what is supposed to be a restricted area, so now we're being told we might have to use large fold out plastic ones to restrict access. I'm guessing now but in my experience, these breaches at work occur at a several-fold increase over the number of attempts from the public in gaining access to areas behind layouts, whether theres barriers there or not.

[t-b-g]

I have followed Natalie's link to the governments own H & S guidlines and found this in the FAQ section:

 

"When do I need to do a risk assessment?

 

You should carry out an assessment before you do work which presents a risk of injury or ill-health.

You only need to do a risk assessment if you are an employer or a self employed person.

Voluntary organisations

 

Health and safety legislation does not, in general, impose duties upon someone who is not an employer, self-employed or an employee. If you are a voluntary organisation, our Health and safety made simple^[10] site takes you through the basic steps you need to follow to ensure you comply with the law in relation to your employees. You can also visit the Voluntary organisations^[11] section."

 

That is about as clear and unambiguous as we I could expect to see. I am not, in this situation, an employer, an employee or self employed, I am a bloke having fun (hopefully) playing trains and therefore not subject to any duties under H & S regulations.

[spamcan61]

 

That is about as clear and unambiguous as we I could expect to see. I am not, in this situation, an employer, an employee or self employed, I am a bloke having fun (hopefully) playing trains and therefore not subject to any duties under H & S regulations.

 

Although you may still have duties under the venue's terms and conditions of hire, which probably takes us back to the first post.

[t-b-g]

There was one of my questions that I found the answer to on the H & S website. That relates to who can complete a RA. It is clearly noted that you do not have to have any formal training or qualifiactions to complete a RA but different rules apply to an employer, who must have somebody with appropriate knowledge involved.

 

I probably already knew that I could go through the motions of filling in an RA, sending it back and that would be the end of it but sometimes I just get this great urge to question things instead of blindly getting sucked into the ever deeper pool of rules and regulations that are foisted on us!

[Guest Max Stafford]

Now my computer's getting on a bit I've been asked to do a risk assessment based on the hard drive unexpectedly overspeeding and bursting into flames.

 

PC gone mad...

 

 

Dave.

[pete55]

I have followed Natalie's link to the governments own H & S guidlines and found this in the FAQ section: "When do I need to do a risk assessment? You should carry out an assessment before you do work which presents a risk of injury or ill-health. You only need to do a risk assessment if you are an employer or a self employed person. Voluntary organisations Health and safety legislation does not, in general, impose duties upon someone who is not an employer, self-employed or an employee. If you are a voluntary organisation, our Health and safety made simple^[10] site takes you through the basic steps you need to follow to ensure you comply with the law in relation to your employees. You can also visit the Voluntary organisations^[11] section." That is about as clear and unambiguous as we I could expect to see. I am not, in this situation, an employer, an employee or self employed, I am a bloke having fun (hopefully) playing trains and therefore not subject to any duties under H & S regulations.

 

 

 

So that is the answer then? Exhibiting a layout is voluntary, so there is no nedd to do any written assessment.

[Bruciethefish]

Not in the context of model railways, I know, but our fish club is having a stand at a major aquatics event at Olympia, & part of the contract stipulated that we submit a risk assessment. My submission was as follows;-

 

'Having considered what is involved in our attending this event, we have been unable to identify anything which we think would constitute a risk'

 

The organisers have accepted this quite happily, & have even excused us from the requirement of having 2million quid's worth of public liability insurance.. It can really be that simple....

[kevinlms]

 

 

 

So that is the answer then? Exhibiting a layout is voluntary, so there is no need to do any written assessment.

 

Not correct. As others have stated potential attendees of this particular exhibition have been asked to provide a few notes, which really are about commonsense safety, so isn't too hard.

 

Of course you could take the view that you find it too much trouble & not bother taking an exhibit to the exhibition. If every one took that view, nothing would be done on a 'not for profit' basis, anymore.

 

Kevin Martin

[The Stationmaster]

So that is the answer then? Exhibiting a layout is voluntary, so there is no nedd to do any written assessment.

 

I'm beginning to wonder just how much invisible ink there is in this thread because the red herrings seem to be carrying far more weight than the comments which have (several times by several people) disposed of them as irrelevant.

 

Whether you are a volunteer/not employed by XXX/or whatever is totally irrelevant in this context. The responsible organisation has asked someone to RA something which is being taken into the area which is their responsibility and if that is their policy that is it - they need an RA of what 'you' are 'importing' and only the layout owner has sufficient knowledge of the 'import' to enable him/her to do that.

[spamcan61]

So, just once more, to summarise:-

 

There is no LEGAL requirement to produce an RA for a model railway layout attending an exhibition.

 

There may be a Contractual requirement to produce one as part of the terms and conditions of using a particular venue.

 

Capice?

[t-b-g]

Well, we seem to be getting somewhere now. I can understand a bit of exasperation by one or two because it is so much easier to just fill the form in and send it back. I could do it in 5 minutes. I just want to know the possible consequences before I do so, not afterwards.

 

I started out with 3 basic questions and I now have pretty strong answers to two of them. Some venues ask for RAs and some don't because model railways at an exhibition are not covered by H & S legislation but some venues feel that they would like a RA doing as part of their own procedures.

 

Secondly, a RA can be completed by somebody without any training or experience. That is from the governments own H & S site and is indisputable but, to me, a bit daft!

 

The third one remains. If I miss something on a RA, which subsequently causes an injury, am I personally liable or is it covered by the exhibition insurance? Do I need to take out millions of pounds of personal liability cover before I attend the show? You can bet your bottom dollar that in the event of an incident, the exhibition insurers will look at any possible avenue to avoid paying out and an inadequate RA would give them just that avenue.

[kevinlms]

Well, we seem to be getting somewhere now. I can understand a bit of exasperation by one or two because it is so much easier to just fill the form in and send it back. I could do it in 5 minutes. I just want to know the possible consequences before I do so, not afterwards.

 

I started out with 3 basic questions and I now have pretty strong answers to two of them. Some venues ask for RAs and some don't because model railways at an exhibition are not covered by H & S legislation but some venues feel that they would like a RA doing as part of their own procedures.

 

Secondly, a RA can be completed by somebody without any training or experience. That is from the governments own H & S site and is indisputable but, to me, a bit daft!

 

The third one remains. If I miss something on a RA, which subsequently causes an injury, am I personally liable or is it covered by the exhibition insurance? Do I need to take out millions of pounds of personal liability cover before I attend the show? You can bet your bottom dollar that in the event of an incident, the exhibition insurers will look at any possible avenue to avoid paying out and an inadequate RA would give them just that avenue.

 

I think you have made up your mind several days ago about the 3rd point. Not quite sure what you want anyone to say anymore, except to agree with you.

 

I suspect if you wanted to take out a personal insurance cover for millions of pounds, the insurer would probably ask you what you want to be covered for, that would require a RA FROM YOU. So back where you started from.

 

;-)

 

 

Kevin Martin

 

[spamcan61]

 

I suspect if you wanted to take out a personal insurance cover for millions of pounds, the insurer would probably ask you what you want to be covered for, that would require a RA FROM YOU. So back where you started from.

 

;-)

 

 

Kevin Martin

 

Many domestic buildings insurance policies include third party liability cover, my typical 'more than' policy covers any family member against claims up to 2 million quid; see page 31 of the policy:-

 

http://www.morethan.com/process/documents/home_policy_wording.pdf

[Guest Natalie Graham]

 

 

The third one remains. If I miss something on a RA, which subsequently causes an injury, am I personally liable or is it covered by the exhibition insurance? Do I need to take out millions of pounds of personal liability cover before I attend the show? You can bet your bottom dollar that in the event of an incident, the exhibition insurers will look at any possible avenue to avoid paying out and an inadequate RA would give them just that avenue.

If something happens and the incident is down to your negligence then whether or not you foresaw this in a risk assessment is irrelevant in terms of your liability. As in the example I gave earlier if you foresee the risk in the assessment and it still happens that is tantamount to an admission that you were aware of the risk did not take sufficient care to prevent it. I suspect the reason why the insurance companies might want risk assessments is so that they can deny liability and put it back on the individual not preventing the risk they identified from happening.

 

If you feel that your layout has the potential to inflict two million pounds worth of injury on somebody then take out insurance. It is a while since I went to a model railway exhibition but I don't recall ever feeling in danger from any of the exhibits at a show. Do you feel unsafe having the layout in your house? So long as you don't use the metal crowd barriers to conduct the mains power to the transformer and don't put the working sawmill built from an old Black and Decker table saw in front of the push button to make Thomas pull Annie and Clarabell out of the tunnel you don't have anthing to worry about.

[Penlan]

...If.... your layout has the potential to inflict two million pounds worth of injury on somebody then take out insurance. ......

At home presumably the maximum value of damage inflicted would correlate to your house insurance?

 

Most Local authority and Public venues normally ask for £5m Third Party Public Liability insurance cover as a minimum standard, it's not if your layout, or any other function (e.g. Playgroup etc.,) can inflict that amount of damage. However I'm assuming (very dangerouse to 'assume') that this aspect of the insurance is covered by the Organisers of the Exhibition.

 

In our village we do a number of events on the streets and on Private property (Harbour Commissioners) they all require the Organisers to have £5m Public Liability cover, that's us the Organisers, before we can proceed with our event(s).on their property.

 

By Organisers I mean the organisation/group or even a single person who is renting/hiring (even if that rent/hire is free) the said premises, be they indoor or outdoors who then in turn invite others, be they traders, bar, food, layouts, gymkanas, etc., to attend their (the organisers) event.

[Glorious NSE]

Secondly, a RA can be completed by somebody without any training or experience. That is from the governments own H & S site and is indisputable but, to me, a bit daft!

 

Most people do RA's constantly and unconsciously, when they walk down a flight of stairs, or decide whether to take the shortcut down that dark alley or go around, or when they cross the road, whatever....they asses those risks, usually without thinking about them, they just don't write them down.

 

What a formal RA is is identifying any obvious problems then saying how you will guard against them.

 

Risk: "There might be moving traffic" - "Take care not walk in front of moving traffic - use a pedestrian crossing if there is one"

Risk: "There's a curb" - "Take care not to fall over that - if you have mobility problems pick a location to cross with a dropped curb"

 

We all do this all the time, that there's a whole massive industry devoted to convincing folk that they can't possibly do RAs at a basic level without receiving formal training is maybe the daft thing!

[nigelb]

Apologies for the delay in replying

to cover the OP's original questions

1. the request for a Risk assessment is up to the organisers as your not at work the legal obligation is on them , if you produce a doccument it will be purely for your own layout and should cover such things as the electrical supply ( put it in an insulated box) the lighting pelmet, and is your curtain flam retardent.

2. It would be a good idea for show organisers to give out a simple template this could give the risk headings as above and leave space for the operator to fill in how their layout controls the risk

3. Any person who undertakes a Risk Assessment to the best of their abilities would be very unlikely to be prosecuted unless you are employed as a H&S proffesional working for a company

4. Union H&S staff tend to have a different attitude to Risk assessments than others by this i do not mean to put union staff down but their main concern is the welfare of their members and it can be perceved that completing a RA with managers can lead to prosecution if it goes wrong ( see 3 )

 

I Hope that this clarifies your questions

[t-b-g]

Apologies for the delay in replying

to cover the OP's original questions

1. the request for a Risk assessment is up to the organisers as your not at work the legal obligation is on them , if you produce a doccument it will be purely for your own layout and should cover such things as the electrical supply ( put it in an insulated box) the lighting pelmet, and is your curtain flam retardent.

2. It would be a good idea for show organisers to give out a simple template this could give the risk headings as above and leave space for the operator to fill in how their layout controls the risk

3. Any person who undertakes a Risk Assessment to the best of their abilities would be very unlikely to be prosecuted unless you are employed as a H&S proffesional working for a company

4. Union H&S staff tend to have a different attitude to Risk assessments than others by this i do not mean to put union staff down but their main concern is the welfare of their members and it can be perceved that completing a RA with managers can lead to prosecution if it goes wrong ( see 3 )

 

I Hope that this clarifies your questions

 

It certainly does! Many thanks.