Health & Safety at exhibitions

[t-b-g]

 

Thanks for posting that

 

I thought I must have used invisible ink when I posted the same link in post #2 only half an hour after the original question - now we are onto page three and looking at some of the comments it is obvious that some have not read the topic from the start - several have said that there should be guidance out there for others and that is just what is in that link.

 

Mike

 

I have read that document too but it doesn't mention anything at all about an individual stand completing a RA.

 

To me, it seems a perfectly logical and sensible approach to H & S at a model railway exhibition. It smacks of being completed by somebody (or some people) who have an understanding of practical H & S matters.

 

But it is clearly aimed at the organiser rather than the exhibitor. It includes the notion of the show having somebody appointed to "floor walk" the show, looking for potential breaches of the guidlines, which I really like and also has a nice phrase covering activities with potentially dangerous tools but it makes no mention of the responsibilities of the exhibitor.

 

It does indicate that the Wessex approach and the Harrogate one are quite different in where they place the onus on completion of the RA. Perhaps both approaches are right but the Wessex model seems much more practical and sensible to me.

[spamcan61]

 

Thanks for posting that

 

I thought I must have used invisible ink when I posted the same link in post #2 only half an hour after the original question - now we are onto page three and looking at some of the comments it is obvious that some have not read the topic from the start - several have said that there should be guidance out there for others and that is just what is in that link.

 

Mike

 

I thought you'd posted it, but couldn't find it looking back in the thread myself, hence my repost. A bit of reinforcement never did any harm I guess. :-)

[t-b-g]

My basic questions still remains. Do I, as an unqualified, untrained person, complete a RA. Is it worth anything if I do? Am I leaving myself open to possible financial liabiities if I miss a risk that I should have thought of? The show may have massive public liability insurance but I may not as an individual. Does the RA start when I plug the layout in? When I arrive at the venue? When I go out of my back door to go to the shed to load the layout in the car? Does it even start when I design the layout, to ensure that the structure is stable and well built enough that it won't fall over easily?

 

I suppose I could just fill in the RA and send it back, having written on it that it has been completed to the best of my ability but that I have received no formal H & S training. I cannot guarantee that it covers every eventuality but if the organisers wish to send a suitably trained H & S person to examine the layout before I attend the show, they are welcome to do so.

 

A bit of classic buck passing but hey ho if it gets the job done.......

[Andy C]

Tony that is in essence exactly what I have done. At the end of the day when they arrive back in the post I bet they will be filed away and never looked at, as I strongly suspect the person who they were addressed to wouldn't have a clue as to what a RA is themselves. However it does mean she can tick a box on a sheet for the hall owners / Insurance company or whomsover wishes to know...

[t-b-g]

Tony that is in essence exactly what I have done. At the end of the day when they arrive back in the post I bet they will be filed away and never looked at, as I strongly suspect the person who they were addressed to wouldn't have a clue as to what a RA is themselves. However it does mean she can tick a box on a sheet for the hall owners / Insurance company or whomsover wishes to know...

 

That sounds like a plan then! I will give that a try and see what you happens. Andy, you are probably quite right. It is highly likely that it is more of tick the box exercise than anything else. I do wonder about putting something totally ridiculous on the RA just to see if anybody queries it.

 

Many thanks for all the interesting postings. I still don't really feel that my original questions have been fully answered but at least I have a way forward.

[Neil]

My basic questions still remains. Do I, as an unqualified, untrained person, complete a RA. Is it worth anything if I do? Am I leaving myself open to possible financial liabiities if I miss a risk that I should have thought of? The show may have massive public liability insurance but I may not as an individual. Does the RA start when I plug the layout in? When I arrive at the venue? When I go out of my back door to go to the shed to load the layout in the car? Does it even start when I design the layout, to ensure that the structure is stable and well built enough that it won't fall over easily? .......

 

Actually I'd advise that you send this back rather than a qualified risk assessment. It'd be interesting to see what the response would be and it sounds as though no one has been able to satisfy your concerns regarding opening yourself up to possible liabilities.

[Happy Hippo]

Historically, how many individual exhibitors at railway exhibitions have had the a** sued off them by a litigant for breaches of H&S?

 

Or how many exhibitors have sued exhibition organisers for same?

 

Regards

 

Richard

[asmay2002]

Historically, how many individual exhibitors at railway exhibitions have had the a** sued off them by a litigant for breaches of H&S?

 

Or how many exhibitors have sued exhibition organisers for same?

 

Regards

 

Richard

 

The responsibiltiy for safety cannot be legally delegated and remains with the organisers.

 

see for example

 

http://www.easthants.gov.uk/ehdc/healthsafetyweb.nsf/

[Guest Natalie Graham]

Historically, how many individual exhibitors at railway exhibitions have had the a** sued off them by a litigant for breaches of H&S?

 

Or how many exhibitors have sued exhibition organisers for same?

 

Regards

 

Richard

 

It would also be interesing to know the figures for model railway related accidents.

[spamcan61]

 

It would also be interesing to know the figures for model railway related accidents.

 

Indeed, it would be good to put the theoretical risks into context. Starting at a random date of say 1960, how many people have attended model railway exhibitions, must be in the millions? I'm sure any major incident would be all over the press, I don't recall reading any, ever.

[Guest Natalie Graham]

http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/aug08.htm

[Guest Natalie Graham]

 

The responsibiltiy for safety cannot be legally delegated and remains with the organisers.

 

see for example

 

http://www.easthants...hsafetyweb.nsf/

 

Interesting. From that link:

 

 

The Organiser

As an organiser of an event, you will be legally considered an employer if you are instructing people whether they are paid or not, this will therefore include volunteers. For the purposes of this document, the term 'Staff' will be used to describe all above.

 

Under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 you will therefore have a general duty of care to provide a safe place of work for yourself, those working for/with you and any other person who might be affected by your activities i.e. contractors, visitors and members of the public attending the event.

From the Health and Safety Executive's website:

 

Does health and safety legislation apply to volunteers?

 

Health and safety legislation doesn’t generally apply to someone who is not an employer, self-employed or an employee.

The Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 (HSW Act) and the regulations made under it apply if any organisation (including a voluntary organisation) has at least one employee.

[The Stationmaster]

Quoted from above

'Does health and safety legislation apply to volunteers?'

 

'Health and safety legislation doesn’t generally apply to someone who is not an employer, self-employed or an employee.

The Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 (HSW Act) and the regulations made under it apply if any organisation (including a voluntary organisation) has at least one employee.'

 

This is a difficult area which needs some further comment. As stated by the HSE the Act applies if the organisation has at least one paid employee but what needs to be understood is that it then applies to everyone working in that organisation be they paid employees of that organisation, or contractors, or volunteers and it applies to persons working (including in a voluntary manner or as contractors) on that organisation's/company's premises. We have been through this hoop when looking at personal safety procedures in the heritage/leisure railway sector and it was - I understand - questioned by volunteers on one Railway when they tried to claim that the legislation didn't cover them; but it did because that Railway had a paid full-time member of staff (who in fact was in a commercial post which had nothing to do with railway operation - but that was not the deciding factor.

 

However what we should also do here is slightly detach ourselves from getting wrapped-up in the H&S Act because we are talking of a broader area when we talk of Risk Assessments because in many instances they have come to be regarded as a sort of 'get out of jail free' card by insurers and councils and umpteen other organisations. Their widespread use is something which has resulted as much as anything from the massive increase in litigation and claims made for the most trivial of reasons as from legal requirement. And that might partly answer why it is becoming associated with exhibitions because responsibility, and therefore liability, can be traced back to the owner of the hall or potentially the organiser of the exhibition and their insurers - and they want to ensure they're not leaving themselves open to some sort of trivial - but very expensive claim when an MR Sentinel falls off a layout onto a visitor's foot.

[t-b-g]

 

Interesting. From that link:

 

 

From the Health and Safety Executive's website:

 

According to that, the exhibition manager has the legal status of an employer. However, the H & S act applies only if the organisation has at least one employee. I don't see how anybody involved in the average exhibition could be considered an employee. So are we now saying that if the organisation arranging the show, ie the model railway club, has no employees, then exhibitors are exempt and don't need to complete an RA? How do traders fit into that, as they may have employees with them?

[Geoff Endacott]

The discussion of whether or not H&S legislation applies or not rather misses an important point. Exhibition managers should do everything possible to organise a safe exhibition because they don't want anyone to be hurt. I don't want people to be injured at the exhibitions I organise because I want everyone to enjoy their day out. I am far more concerned about the possibility of a crying child or an crippled pensioner than I am about the threat of litigation.

 

I don't ask layout exhibitors to fill in forms because the layouts themselves are not the biggest risk. The idea that an exhibition can be made safe by asking exhibitors to complete lengthy paperwork is frankly absurd.

 

The biggest risk at an exhibition is caused by a crowd of people being in a confined space. That is why the most important factors are wide, clear gangways and unobstructed fire exits. I wonder how many exhibitions hold a ring binder full of paperwork without ensuring that the hall is properly set out.

 

And how many exhibitions have been known to close the doors because the hall is full? Our local fire officer recommends one fire exit per 200 people plus one extra. (This may apply in other areas.) That means a standard hall with a fire exit in each corner is full when there are 600 people present - including exhibitors.

 

As for injuries caused to visitors, one of the main culprits is the rucksack. I was whacked by one only last weekend. On health and safety grounds alone, rucksacks (and other items of mountaineering equipment) should be banned.

 

Geoff Endacott

[t-b-g]

The discussion of whether or not H&S legislation applies or not rather misses an important point. Exhibition managers should do everything possible to organise a safe exhibition because they don't want anyone to be hurt. I don't want people to be injured at the exhibitions I organise because I want everyone to enjoy their day out. I am far more concerned about the possibility of a crying child or an crippled pensioner than I am about the threat of litigation.

 

I don't ask layout exhibitors to fill in forms because the layouts themselves are not the biggest risk. The idea that an exhibition can be made safe by asking exhibitors to complete lengthy paperwork is frankly absurd.

 

The biggest risk at an exhibition is caused by a crowd of people being in a confined space. That is why the most important factors are wide, clear gangways and unobstructed fire exits. I wonder how many exhibitions hold a ring binder full of paperwork without ensuring that the hall is properly set out.

 

And how many exhibitions have been known to close the doors because the hall is full? Our local fire officer recommends one fire exit per 200 people plus one extra. (This may apply in other areas.) That means a standard hall with a fire exit in each corner is full when there are 600 people present - including exhibitors.

 

As for injuries caused to visitors, one of the main culprits is the rucksack. I was whacked by one only last weekend. On health and safety grounds alone, rucksacks (and other items of mountaineering equipment) should be banned.

 

Geoff Endacott

 

You will have to be careful with talk like that! You might be accused of trying to inject some sort of common sense into the debate.

[nigelb]

being the worse of people and unloved for my sins i am a H&S consultant and a railway modeller

so i get two anoraks. i have read this post with interest and would like to maake the following comments.

 

1. the risk assessment is for the risks raised by your layout to the public and other exhibitors

2. these risks will be very simple to identify and to decide how to best mitigate will also be simple

3. you would not be expected to consider dogs on leads ( unles you bring your own)

4. the risk assessment while not changing from show to show will need to made site specific , so all you have to change is the date and venue

 

If there is any interest i am quite happy to put a template together for a small fee ( maybee a 2mm fS wagon per ) only joking it will be FOC and will include a how to set of notes

Nigel

[Guest dilbert]

How about a return to simplicity from an exhibtor's viewpoint, declaring as appropriate :

• all transformers are double insulated
  
• cable runs from facility outlets are surge protected
  
• all electrical equipment has a PAT certificate
  
• toolboxes kept under lock and key unless items are required, and then only people operating the layout are authorised to use these tools
  
• no piped water or gas required
  
• for DCC sound based layouts, all operators and visitors are expected to bring their own earplugs
  
• for people setting up/dismantling a layout, those who get their fingers pinched in hinges etc... will follow the exhibition manager's RA for three-year old kids who get their fingers pinched in the facility provider's doors
  
• a roll of bog paper on hand in case the exhibition facility runs out of the aforementioned o
  

... dilbert

[t-b-g]

being the worse of people and unloved for my sins i am a H&S consultant and a railway modeller

so i get two anoraks. i have read this post with interest and would like to maake the following comments.

 

1. the risk assessment is for the risks raised by your layout to the public and other exhibitors

2. these risks will be very simple to identify and to decide how to best mitigate will also be simple

3. you would not be expected to consider dogs on leads ( unles you bring your own)

4. the risk assessment while not changing from show to show will need to made site specific , so all you have to change is the date and venue

 

If there is any interest i am quite happy to put a template together for a small fee ( maybee a 2mm fS wagon per ) only joking it will be FOC and will include a how to set of notes

Nigel

 

Thanks for becoming involved in the discussion. You are the sort of person I had in mind when I started this.

 

Are you able to give simple answers to my initial questions? I am quite capable of drawing up a list of possible risks and saying how I would manage them but I am still concerned about who is responsible if I miss something, which causes an injury to somebody.

 

I am also still concerned that there has be no firm answer to the question of whether a RA compilied by somebody with no training and no knowledge of the principles of risk assessment (although I have learned much because of this discussion!) is valid or not. The creation of a matrix and giving risks scores is Ok but I would just be guessing at the likelihood of an incident happening because to the best of my knowledge none of the things I would be listing as potential risks has ever happened.

 

If the likelihood is nil, then does it cease to be a risk?

 

It now seems that we have reached a stage where an exhibition manager considers that layouts do not pose a risk to the public and considers that an individual RA is not necessary and we have an H & S consultant offering to help with a RA because he considers that one should be completed. So I am still confused.

 

Could I perhaps ask Nigel a question? Is it the case that if the organisers of a show consider that the exhibits do not cause a significant risk to the public, that they do not have to ask for an individual RA to be completed but that they themselves could complete one for the show in general?

[kevinlms]

 

Thanks for becoming involved in the discussion. You are the sort of person I had in mind when I started this.

 

Are you able to give simple answers to my initial questions? I am quite capable of drawing up a list of possible risks and saying how I would manage them but I am still concerned about who is responsible if I miss something, which causes an injury to somebody.

 

I am also still concerned that there has be no firm answer to the question of whether a RA compilied by somebody with no training and no knowledge of the principles of risk assessment (although I have learned much because of this discussion!) is valid or not. The creation of a matrix and giving risks scores is Ok but I would just be guessing at the likelihood of an incident happening because to the best of my knowledge none of the things I would be listing as potential risks has ever happened.

 

If the likelihood is nil, then does it cease to be a risk?

 

It now seems that we have reached a stage where an exhibition manager considers that layouts do not pose a risk to the public and considers that an individual RA is not necessary and we have an H & S consultant offering to help with a RA because he considers that one should be completed. So I am still confused.

 

Could I perhaps ask Nigel a question? Is it the case that if the organisers of a show consider that the exhibits do not cause a significant risk to the public, that they do not have to ask for an individual RA to be completed but that they themselves could complete one for the show in general?

 

 

I think an example could be made of taking a driving test of determining your level of risk.

By the time you actually go for the official test, you hopefully already know the rules and ought to have an understanding of them. This includes many risk factors, and it will be known to you that things like - driving, well in excess of the speed limit, on the wrong side of a blind corner on a hump-backed bridge while blind drunk, has an exceptionally high risk factor.

So much so that your insurance company WILL disown you in the event of a claim. Certainly they would have a good case in suggesting you knew you were breaking the law.

 

 

However if you drive properly (as intended by the road rules), you are significantly less likely to have an accident in the first place & it will be almost impossible for the insurers to avoid paying up.

 

 

So as far as your RA is concerned, write out some notes & check with whoever asked you to provide it if that is what they had in mind. It is up to them to have some idea of what is acceptable from you & more importantly, what isn't.

 

Certainly, no one is going to sue you for missing some obscure happening.

Once you get past the big ones, such as electrical safety, tripping hazards, access to fire exits, movement of people in aisleways etc, correct stowing/construction of equipment and barriers, signage that isn't going to fall over/get blown down the street etc, there isn't much left IMO that is your responsibilty.

Events like the windows falling in or hall owned roof mounted theatre spotlights exploding, while definitely dangerous, isn't your problem.

 

 

 

 

An exhibition organiser of ours once said, about a possible break in overnight (with a couple of people sleeping over), 'if 6 armed men turn up & demanded that the layouts be loaded into a truck' - he will ask "Yes Sir, what order would you like them in?"

 

Kevin Martin

[Guest Natalie Graham]

If you are concerned about the possibility of being sued in the event of someone getting hurt don't produce a formal risk assessment. As a private individual not engaged in showing your layout as part of your business or employment, health and safety legislation is not applicable to you. As the HSE repeatedly point out on their website such legislation is about preventing death or serious injury in the workplace. Any legal action against you would be based on the common law principles of a duty of care and negligence. In the event of any legal action then your best line of defence would be that the incident could not reasonably have been foreseen.

 

To give a hypothetical example: Suppose your layout has a high level lighting gantry which is fixed in place by clamps holding it to its supports. During the course of the show these work loose and the gantry falls, causing someone injury. Previously there has never been a problem with these clamps coming loose and the manner of fixing seemed very practical and secure. Now if you can say that you have shown the layout on many previous occasions and used the layout at home without this happening and therefore had no reason to expect this might happen in this instance then you may have a workable defence. If however you have submitted a written risk assessment which states that the risk of the gantry becoming detached is to make sure that the clamps are securely tightened, then you have, in effect, signed a confession of negligence.

 

I would suggest you have a look at the HSE website as while most of what is on there is directed at businesses and employers and employees, it does offer authoritative guidance on producing risk assessments, and their principles of sensible risk management are, I think, relevant. In my view requiring layout owners at a model railway show to produce a written risk assessment does not acord with these principles. Have a look at the cartoon on the HSE website that I posted a link to earlier which is the closest situation to a layout at a model railway show that I could find on their site. If the Punch and Judy man does not need to assess the risk of his tall narrow booth falling on the small children seated in front of it, then why should model railway be required to do so?

[newbryford]

 

The responsibiltiy for safety cannot be legally delegated and remains with the organisers.

 

Surely the responsibility for safety is everyone's?

 

If I'm exhibiting and I see something I consider unsafe - barriers with floor sections protruding behind layouts or badly routed extension cables creating a trip hazard are my favourites. If it's something I can easily sort out, I will, otherwise I'll bring it to the attention of the organiser to either remove or minimise the risk.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[t-b-g]

If you are concerned about the possibility of being sued in the event of someone getting hurt don't produce a formal risk assessment. As a private individual not engaged in showing your layout as part of your business or employment, health and safety legislation is not applicable to you. As the HSE repeatedly point out on their website such legislation is about preventing death or serious injury in the workplace. Any legal action against you would be based on the common law principles of a duty of care and negligence. In the event of any legal action then your best line of defence would be that the incident could not reasonably have been foreseen.

 

To give a hypothetical example: Suppose your layout has a high level lighting gantry which is fixed in place by clamps holding it to its supports. During the course of the show these work loose and the gantry falls, causing someone injury. Previously there has never been a problem with these clamps coming loose and the manner of fixing seemed very practical and secure. Now if you can say that you have shown the layout on many previous occasions and used the layout at home without this happening and therefore had no reason to expect this might happen in this instance then you may have a workable defence. If however you have submitted a written risk assessment which states that the risk of the gantry becoming detached is to make sure that the clamps are securely tightened, then you have, in effect, signed a confession of negligence.

 

I would suggest you have a look at the HSE website as while most of what is on there is directed at businesses and employers and employees, it does offer authoritative guidance on producing risk assessments, and their principles of sensible risk management are, I think, relevant. In my view requiring layout owners at a model railway show to produce a written risk assessment does not acord with these principles. Have a look at the cartoon on the HSE website that I posted a link to earlier which is the closest situation to a layout at a model railway show that I could find on their site. If the Punch and Judy man does not need to assess the risk of his tall narrow booth falling on the small children seated in front of it, then why should model railway be required to do so?

 

Hello Natalie and many thanks for your postings on this matter. I did look at the links you posted and thought that they were most appropriate. The more I look at it the more I agree with you, that my stand at the exhibition does not constitute a workplace and as previously posted, does not constitute a significant risk to the public.

 

I may write something very similar to what you have said on the form and send it back and see what response I get.

[jonhall]

 

. The more I look at it the more I agree with you, that my stand at the exhibition does not constitute a workplace and as previously posted, does not constitute a significant risk to the public.

 

It may not be YOUR workplace, but if the venue has staff it is THEIR workplace.

 

Jon

[jonhall]

By that logic you should write a risk assement for walking to the corner shop as the street is the workplace for street cleaners.

 

And I'm sure that their employer has done an RA that covers streetsweepers, and the interactions that they are likly to have with a member of the public going about their normal business.

 

J