GC Jack Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 GC Jack, the Hornby Stanier 5 is one of the oldest "new-generation" models out there, and I agree it doesn't stand up that well nowadays. To see what scope there is for improvement, have a look here: http://www.rmweb.co....-Hornby-black-5 I haven't gone quite as far with my handful of the type, but with the main modifications in place they do start to get closer to hitting the mark. Thanks for this, reassuring that others felt it had some problems. The thread was fascinating what an amazing difference. Its interesting when some of the details are improved how it alters the whole character of the model. The weathering helps a lot to add that to that but I would suspect that a pristine Hornby Black 5 would still look right with this work done. I still think though that old version did capture something of the original very well but I can't put my finger on why. Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Hornby's domeless Black Five with Brassmaster bufferbeams, cylinder covers, slidebar support brackets, drain cocks, relief valves, front frames above bogie wheels, Gibson bevel-rim bogie wheels and a touch of weathering. I also shaved some of the offending valance away under the tender running plate. Only the bright boiler bands spoil it but thats my fault for not tackling them at the time.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 I still think though that old version did capture something of the original very well but I can't put my finger on why. Jack Stanier Twins - or not? I took a look at both of my Black Fives when I had finished working on the Railroad one (now weathered) and generally, felt the newer model was better but both had problems. Length is the main issue - the Railroad locomotive (the old tender drive model) is too short by about a scale two foot and a half, the newer one at the time I thought was slightly too long, but is probably correct for length. The differences between the two are surprising. Neither really gets the "shoulders" look right. I ended up keeping the Railroad Black 5 and selling the super detail one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GC Jack Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Difficult to fault that one Coachman! A major improvement on the Hornby original. Can you say why S.A.C Martin? An intriguing statement. Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 It is bad enough to cope with a tangle of wires under the baseboard without having to cope with the same mess above the board. Not only that, but getting your hands in and out of the cobweb during "hand-of-god" movements would simply be too much. I think the real thing looks really untidy too. Don't knock it until you've tried it....!! It always surprises me when operating large club layouts (one DC, the other AC) with scratchbuilt catenary and heavily modified RTR or kitbuilt stock, that punters are most likely to ask if the locos pick up using their pantographs...? When you tell them they don't, they some how go away sporting a slight sneer, as if you've cheated them or if it was their layout of course they'd pick up using the pans (without realising all of the pitfalls that method creates). The travesty of being disappointed by a 2-rail overhead electric when steam models don't emit smoke and steam is beyone what my tiny overworked brain can comprehend.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 This electric loco had a lot of charm http://www.lner.info...ctric/ee1.shtml may be because it has a lot of steam characteristics about it - large driving wheels andsteam loco lines. A shame she never had her mainline... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Can you say why S.A.C Martin? An intriguing statement. Jack I simply found that I could sell the fixed super detail machine for an improved price after buying it as a "pup", and that the Railroad model, which I am fond of, was adequate for my needs. The Railroad chassis is certainly smooth running. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 The travesty of being disappointed by a 2-rail overhead electric when steam models don't emit smoke and steam is beyone what my tiny overworked brain can comprehend.... 'Ere yer not trying to stir up another steam v diesel 'debate' are you ?? naughty, naughty . But after reading some comments, if you aint happy with your Hornby 'Black-5's', I'll have 'em off you for a decent price, even non-runners, they're alright for me. For the price, new, of a standard model, they are excellent, LMS fans can't have too many, pity you can't please everybody. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 But after reading some comments, if you aint happy with your Hornby 'Black-5's', I'll have 'em off you for a decent price, ... How good are you at prising things from people's cold, dead hands For all the cosmetic grumbles I love 'em. And fix most of the shortcomings. As to the OP, steam modelling, RtR improvement and conversion is still healthy on my workbench. Currently going a little bit earlier period, from 20ish yrs before I was born to 30ish yrs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Having scrambled over many examples of the class at places like Willesden, Bescot, and Patricroft, they are still my favourite class because of their strong do anything, go any place, large 'maid of all work' abilities. They invoke many happy memories. I have 7 (so far) on my layout, and one day will get round to applying the Brassmaster detailling kits. Sorry wandering OT - again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium NGT6 1315 Posted December 2, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 2, 2011 First of all, let me just second this statement of yours, Jack: Good modelling is good modelling whatever the period. I'm completely able to appreciate all modelling endeavours taking place outside the timeframe I have chosen for myself - which in most general terms would have to be termed "present day" - , even more so when it is clearly visible the owner does know about their chosen period and has taken care to represent it as credibly as can reasonably be done with the means available. I'm not sure whether I would be able to necessarily assume any direct correlation between a person's age and their modelled era either, as I believe that in this kind of hobby, personal taste plays a major role, which in turn can, of course, be fed from all kinds of sources. Growing up in the days of steam certainly is an important one, but then again, just one out of a range of possibilities. I guess that in a similar vein, I have settled on the present-day world as my prototype because I simply am most familiar with anything which has been in operation on German rails for the last...well, let's make it 25 years or so...and also know a couple of people working in the railway business whom I can turn to if I need to check up on some item or other. Both factors combined, I believe I could be most sure of achieving a sufficient personal standard on a present day layout rather than one from a bygone era. However, I did consider modelling a hypothetical preservation railway at one time, which would then have been operated primarily with steam. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 'Ere yer not trying to stir up another steam v diesel 'debate' are you ?? naughty, naughty . There isn't a debate to have, we suspend all belief when viewing a layout, which includes ignoring the lack of steam and smoke effects. If there is a debate, it Steam & Diesel Vs Electric.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
highpeak Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Don't knock it until you've tried it....!! It always surprises me when operating large club layouts (one DC, the other AC) with scratchbuilt catenary and heavily modified RTR or kitbuilt stock, that punters are most likely to ask if the locos pick up using their pantographs...? When you tell them they don't, they some how go away sporting a slight sneer, as if you've cheated them or if it was their layout of course they'd pick up using the pans (without realising all of the pitfalls that method creates). The travesty of being disappointed by a 2-rail overhead electric when steam models don't emit smoke and steam is beyone what my tiny overworked brain can comprehend.... You could have told him you tried it, but scale size overhead didn't handle the current draw when the compressor kicked in for the air brakes... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I'm not sure whether I would be able to necessarily assume any direct correlation between a person's age and their modelled era either, as I believe that in this kind of hobby, personal taste plays a major role, which in turn can, of course, be fed from all kinds of sources. There definitely is a correlation, which is why it works as a generalisation. The moot point, I suppose, is just how widespread it is. First of all, let me just second this statement of yours, Jack: Good modelling is good modelling whatever the period. I'm completely able to appreciate all modelling endeavours taking place outside the timeframe I have chosen for myself - which in most general terms would have to be termed "present day" - , even more so when it is clearly visible the owner does know about their chosen period and has taken care to represent it as credibly as can reasonably be done with the means available. Tin hat time probably, and another sweeping generalisation, but is a lot of the 'this mag/show/whatever is no good to me because I'm only interested in modern image' type of comment based simply on unfamiliarity and ignorance? Do they come from folk whose tastes just havent sufficiently matured, whose own knowledge of other eras simply isnt sufficient to be able to assess whether the builder has done a good job? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 It's also a question of context - an ECML with electric motive power in 1925 (OK it would be one of those what if layouts) would be an interesting project) - also the Shildon coal trains hauled by NER electrics would be a different subject circa 1912, based on historical fact), it also has to be believable to a certain extent ... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I think it's like a modelling version of childhood Ian It's the sort of comment you get from newbies but as people have been arround a while they tend to drift towards the 'a good model is a good model' mindset. There will always be a supply of newbies who know no better and there will always be oldies who have heard it all before. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 People will model what they model and beg to differ. Steam is here to stay, diesel is here to stay. Little Johnny gets a Tommy the Tank trainset nowadays and it goes from there. Most of us probably had a steam trainset before we got a diesel loco. My first trainset was a Hornby 'Iron Duke' and three MK1's back in 1974. I now prefer to model diesel . What is important to me now is capturing the WHOLE. Motive power is purely incidental, a small part of the whole. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Absolutely BD I am finding, increasingly, the trains themselves are becoming more and more incidental! Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I think Ian is probably spot on with his comment about attitudes with some people! It's no different from people being blinkered over all sorts of different subjects - it can be real ale/lager, car marques, FWD vs RWD, anything. One thing which often puzzles me is why some are so fixated on the type of motive power you model. It represents a tiny proportion of the overall railway yet many don't seem bothered about much else. It makes me think that many 'railway enthusiasts' are actually 'train enthusiasts' or 'loco enthusiasts'. The whole notion of being a modern image modeller is flawed too. I'm currently sat in a 100 year signalbox, the lever frame says LNER on it (the boxes either way have NER on theirs!), the signals are BR (NE) types, the crossing gates are wooden, track is modern CWR and the trains are pretty recent. A mix of all sorts of eras. If you were modelling here in 2011 you'd need to research some NER subject matter if you wanted to build an accurate model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 This is what its all about for me: Not a train in sight, but the stage is set. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 A superb reminder of an inspirational model that BD - thanks I've lost count of the number of times I've been stood admiring a layout at an exhibition and overheard someone behind me saying something like "oh, it's GWR / diesels / electrics / narrow gauge, not interested" before they walk away in a slight strop. I know we all have our own area of interest, but it's the modelling that counts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 A superb reminder of an inspirational model that BD - thanks I've lost count of the number of times I've been stood admiring a layout at an exhibition and overheard someone behind me saying something like "oh, it's GWR / diesels / electrics / narrow gauge, not interested" before they walk away in a slight strop. I know we all have our own area of interest, but it's the modelling that counts. I am slightly guilty of being something of a 'yawnist' myself if the stock doesn't interest me, but if I see urban grot and dirty derelict buildings, I'm drawn into it immediately. The fact its pre-grouping GWR or whatever becomes irrelevent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 One thing which often puzzles me is why some are so fixated on the type of motive power you model. It represents a tiny proportion of the overall railway yet many don't seem bothered about much else. It makes me think that many 'railway enthusiasts' are actually 'train enthusiasts' or 'loco enthusiasts'. I suppose that's what I meant by 'tastes not having matured'. Not that being lococentric is automatically a bad thing, each to his own and all that, as long as it doesnt become the tail that wags the dog. The whole notion of being a modern image modeller is flawed too. I'm currently sat in a 100 year signalbox, the lever frame says LNER on it (the boxes either way have NER on theirs!), the signals are BR (NE) types, the crossing gates are wooden, track is modern CWR and the trains are pretty recent. A mix of all sorts of eras. If you were modelling here in 2011 you'd need to research some NER subject matter if you wanted to build an accurate model. And that's just the railway impedimenta - go outside the fence in almost any location, and you have a similar mix of vintages in the infrastructure of the world outside. Mick used the example in his ill fated 'modern image' thread of an old mill building being based on a local prototype - its that sort of touch that IMO sets the more well observed modern layouts apart. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 This thread has thrown up a very interesting point. Thinking about my own modelling, I would definitely fall into the loco centric category, but I yearn for the space to do something as convincing, scenery wise, as Retford or Peterborough. There the trains truly are incidental, making up part of a bigger overall impression, where we suspend disbelief and believe we are there. The question is, is being loco centric a mindset or a result of collecting locus being easier to achieve than a good layout (where money/space is not available)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Simon, by saying you wish to do more if you had the space shows you aren't just loco-centric! Just constrained by domestic arrangments like many of us are! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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