Is modelling steam falling out of favour?

[bike2steam]

Does it really matter...we all like what we like.

 

 

 

 

 

It's just toy trains....

 

True enough, the original question was somewhat innocuous, but people shouldn't be under the misapprehension that model railway forums represent the 'norm'.

[gc4946]

My OO steam fleet is slightly unusual in so far it only consists of "namers" after towns, counties and cities and those that are currently preserved which were allocated to sheds all chosen from where my family and I lived over the years.

Combining these two groups provides me with a range of types allowing for prototypical operation.

 

Even though I lived on Merseyside in the last few years of BR steam I've no recollection of any as I was very young then so effectively I've only ever seen steam in preservation.

 

This has in no way diminished my interest in steam. However, only one of my fleet is kit-built, a pre-assembled GER J17 Bec white metal body kit on a Triang chassis, bought because the survivor at the NRM was allocated to Norwich shed in the 1950s where my mum lived at the time.

I'm grateful to the major manufacturers for producing reliable running locos and the range of types needed to represent my fleet, compared with what I had to put up with 20 years ago.

 

There will be some who will kit- or scratchbuild to fill gaps in their rosters, simply because of the historic fragmentation of Britain's railways there were so many types built, no RTR manufacturers collectively could model every possible type.

[Baby Deltic]

I was brought up in the BR blue era and I used to model late 70's/ early 80's. I now prefer to model the transition period because there is far more variety of motive power and rolling stock. Of course, if you want green diesels, its best to have some steam aswell.

[Oldddudders]

Of course, if you want green diesels, its best to have some steam aswell.

Very true, but to turn that on it's head, late steam layouts have the option to include nice green diesels, of which there is an increasing RTR supply. My trainspotting days were undoubtedly enhanced by the huge variety of motive power on all sides in the early '60s. While my current UK modelling is late 40s/early 50s, there will be one or two pilot scheme diesels which will be "under the counter" for when no-one's looking.

[The Q]

I Believe that as time goes on modelling will slowly switch to diesel / electric stock, think now what percentage model pre-grouping.

 

However someone noted that modern modellers are more likely to have grown up in the computer generation. I would point out that I can remember the last few years of steam, but I was the first to have an electronic calculator at school and was computing at school (OK it arrived in an artic truck). Also while in training after schooling I built my own home computer by soldering chips onto circuit boards and that was now some 35 years ago.

Oh I model 1930s ? 40s GWR.

Oh It really p*********** me off when on TV they go on about the over 50s need to learn about Computers, we've had them in this country since the 1940's 70 years ago!!!!! and in general public use for 35 years

 

The Q

[Tim V]

However someone noted that modern modellers are more likely to have grown up in the computer generation. I would point out that I can remember the last few years of steam, but I was the first to have an electronic calculator at school and was computing at school (OK it arrived in an artic truck). Also while in training after schooling I built my own home computer by soldering chips onto circuit boards and that was now some 35 years ago.

Oh I model 1930s ? 40s GWR.

Oh It really p*********** me off when on TV they go on about the over 50s need to learn about Computers, we've had them in this country since the 1940's 70 years ago!!!!! and in general public use for 35 years

 

The Q

I think this news item is particularly relevant. Youngsters are taught how to use computers, but not how they work. Also, these days, modellers expect everything to come out of a box, and the ability to make things themselves, has been lost.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15916677

It might be better to ask how many people know how to solder - a pretty fundamental requirement to build a model railway.

[coachmann]

Steam won't die out. Why would it? It's not a fashion fad.

[Coombe Barton]

Back to the 'is modelling steam a dying art' question. I think this is best answered by looking at threads similar to this one http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/48268-kernow-to-commission-lswr-gate-stock-pull-push-sets/ and http://www.rmweb.co....ttie-well-tank/

[spamcan61]

It might be better to ask how many people know how to solder - a pretty fundamental requirement to build a model railway.

 

Well both my daughters recently received at least some tuition in soldering at high school, seems to be the norm, so it shouldn't be a dying art.

[TomJ]

I model both GWR steam 1930s and 1980s BR blue. I'm in my mid 30s born almost 10years after the end of mainline steam. However I grew up visiting mnay GW preserved lines and there's something I just love about the steam engine. I love the history and the story of the GWR and like the look of its engines, so thats what I model. I chose the 30s simply because I prefer green locos and chocolate/cream coaches to black engines and maroon coaches, simple as that.

I also have got into modelling the 80s as its the period I remember from childhood trips and holidays. I also like the fact that the 80s seems to be an interesting crossover with areas still having a steam era infrastructure but with modernish diesels running on it. Theres also something about being able to much easier research the stock etc so I can get correct train formations much easier than 70years past.

 

These days I would happily spend all day looking at and photographing steam engines but have no real interest in the full size modern scene, even though I enjoy modelling diesels.

 

In terms of modifying things its interesting that all my steam stuff is pristine but my modern stuff is going to be heavily weathered.

 

A lot of my non railway modelling friends my age are actually quite fascinated by steam, so I don't think it'll die out just yet.

 

And at the end of the day a good model is superb to look at whatever the era or scene it portrays

[beast66606]

I've modelled Liverpool and Manchester (yes, the Rocket time! albeit slightly), pre Group LNWR, LMS, BR(LMR), blue diesels and "modern" image - my next modelling project with the WFRM boys will be an American (big) plank.

 

What does this prove ? nothing, except (imho) we all model what we like and my likes have changed over the years, as it will for others too, I doubt if anything will die out as such, there will be fads leaning one way or the other from time to time but thats probably about the total of it.

 

PS - I'm over 50 and IT (very) literate, (I support several thousand users through the UK, Europe and the US)

[muddys-blues]

The only thing that will definitely die out ? - is us, anyway must dash, my kettle is on time for a brew

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Steam is often considered outmoded and old fashioned, but it's probably being used to power the computers we're all currently sitting at (ie steam turbines in power stations).

 

With the high quality and variety of steam outline models, I'd say this is the golden age of rtr stock, whether it be steam, diesel or electric.

 

So is modelling steam falling out of favour? I'd say a resounding NO.

 

Regards,

Peter

 

[The Black Hat]

Very true, but to turn that on it's head, late steam layouts have the option to include nice green diesels, of which there is an increasing RTR supply. My trainspotting days were undoubtedly enhanced by the huge variety of motive power on all sides in the early '60s. While my current UK modelling is late 40s/early 50s, there will be one or two pilot scheme diesels which will be "under the counter" for when no-one's looking.

 

I think this is getting close to the reason on why there are not as many modfifications to steam engines for a few reasons. Firstly, the improvement in manufacturing now means that you can model steam engines that are very accurate and delicate to touch. The finesse and detail that these engines have is truely fantastic and a lot better that novices would be able to achieve should they start stratch or building. But they are also dettered by the sheer cost of the kit building process too. It would be very expensive to build a modern kit built engine such as a "Duke of Gloucester" for example, and this would be both hard to make, and expensive to recitfy when people make misstakes. While many would suggest beginning with something simpler, fact is many would want the Duke. Thanks to the advances and fad that prototypes are being considered its possible that should an engine like the Duke become so popular a company would realise the money is there and make it. Diesels have been covered to such an extent that the prototypes are now viable sellers but this is also due to another reason outlined above.

 

Some engines modelled mean that its possible to create a pool of engines for an area using RTR stock alone. The steam-diesel transition period is certainly the area that companies have devoted attention too. Here former Big Four engines mixed with BR standards and finally diesels that were coming onto the scene. Add that the latter two encompass a more general geographic area for being standard designs it means that you can use these to model anywhere. Its just a case of finding the right Big Four engines, most of the popular ones are covered and then filling the gaps with kits you have made, or even saved up for an ordered, or bought when you saw a bargin!

 

Why such a period is popular is because a lot of what is needed to be modelled can be bought over the counter. This isnt just for engines, but now modell companies are making things such as engine sheds, coaling towers, ash plants as the resin revolution brings forth the advantages of these cast products. Modellers simply buy them, the appropriate engines, stock and then use their skills and track layouts to make modells different. The Fad that once was the GW BLT will soon now see exhibition layouts based on transition steam sheds, or privitised modern image stabling depots as fairly common on the circuit. Why, because for both, the stock of all sorts is there.

 

Yet, interestingly, this doesnt mean that age is linked in quite the factor some might logically presume. Quite a few people model what they choose to, given they can see the areas where the stock overlaps and which areas have the coverage that is better than others. For example, just about every single kind of Southern steam engine imaginable has been produced, meaning that everything from a Bornemouth Belle, to a slam door EMU and a Q1 arriving for a Terrier to shunt goods is catered for. As this is a growth area, and layouts are chosen cos the stock is there, shops order the novelty engines such as the radial tank, knowing modellers will buy this quaint novelty to augment the standard and well known bigger more common classes of engines. While this is becoming quite common, its a wonder just how much these extra engines combined will flood the market, or detract from the general sales overall of standard releases by the manufacturers. Bachmann, ever the vanguard it seems to new ideas, have chosen differently, by allining themselves with preserved railways, to model a station using the resin cast technology off a preserved railway. This means that the engines that run on the line, which frequently include guest engines from other areas could be bought and purchased when wanted. Also the line could be run as a station during its original time frame. Choosing an engine like the Southern C-Class then, from the blue was quite surprising but not when you understand that such a model will sell as its covers all three requirements - 1 it augments the current selection of common southern engines, 2 it can be run on with the station products for the layout in its original time frame, 3, it can be run as part of a active preserved railway.

 

By having such engines it detracts the need for steam to be built and then modified accordingly. Modellers would rather buy and model an area for which the stock is already there, than wait or champion an area that is not currently served. Hence the ammount of people up north modelling down south - which is simply because thanks to developments in production and the standard now of detail on model railways, making your own is very hard to equal that detail produced at present using RTR.

 

Age is not the factor it should be. Because of the choice available, many people of different areas gravitate to choose subjects of engines that are covered well and for which the possibility of modelling is attainable. Hence younger modellers enjoy the research of looking at steam opperations, and older modellers can equally run a modern image when they choose to. The Blue and Grey era is making more of a comeback, as new people, following the 40+ rule return to the hobby and I think as a gereralisation, there is some accuracy in it and also an effect for companies to choose to include this in the areas that have become well covered. These Blue diesels nicely fit into the transition period, but also up to privitisation, so its no wonder Diesel models have become so popular. With them done, the attention turns to things like DMUs, but again there is little appitite for kit built or scratch built ones. Small companies like Realtrack sence where the market its heading and where the gaps are and produce the stock that will sell.

 

To conclude, I think its a number of issues that become a wider theme. Kit building is deminishing as its expensive compared with the results of RTR, choice of areas and periods to model, and the hope your prefered option might the area covered next (always my hope for NER area steam diesel transition every year!)... Because of the choice available, people choose and area well served, negating the need to kit bash or build when everything including buildings is available. That age doesnt factor as much as it did on those that opperate a layout. Rather it isnt so typical for all steam modellers to be so old, modern image to be so young. The entrenched opinions of the previous thread show that it is still a majority factor, but its less surprising now to see that breadth of interest in more periods modelled as more and more people begin to realise that if what you want or accept is available to model anything is possible....

[Marty Mc]

Hi

90% of my fleet is steam, and my boys love steam because they can see lots of moving parts. I certainly hope it will be with us for many many years to come, it might be slightly out of favour but some of the die hard modern image modellers always find an excuse to run the odd steam loco, which I think is great.

 

Cheers

 

Martin

[newbryford]

Judging by the red-blooded debate on this recently locked thread - http://www.rmweb.co....__fromsearch__1 - I would say not.

 

Unlike others, I do buy into the "model what we know" philosophy to some degree, but there will ALWAYS be exceptions to the rule - usuallly to the "model what I like"

 

I'm one of the exceptions. I should be modelling BR Blue in the North-West of England as I have a very large number of photos from that area/era. However, I model the reasonably present day (I posted the OP in the thread above) because it too, also comes under the "what we know" banner, but more importantly for me (and a few others) "what I like".

 

Like my original thread, it's difficult to pinpoint an exact reason for the OP's question in this case, that why are there fewer steam projects in modifying r-t-r?

 

Here's a few of my thoughts.

 

WIth regard to bits for modifying/detailing, there are far more products available for the diesel modeller.

 

Steam prototypes are so diverse that the way forward for a lot of modellers is down the kit/scratchbuilt route if you want to model an obscure prototype - are there are many r-t-r steam models of classes of 10 or less (the S&D 2-8-0 is the only one that immediately springs to mind)? For diesels, the list is growing on an almost monthly basis - Falcon, Lion, Kestrel, baby-d*lt*cs, C0-B0, 10000/1, DP1, for example.

 

This is not an ageist comment - steam modellers will predominantly be of a greater age and thus not quite as IT savvy, thus not posting on the likes of RMWeb.Yes, I'm fully aware that there are exceptions as noted here and elsewhere.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Darth Vader]

Speaking for myself, I model the steam/diesel transition era. While I like steam locomotives the ratio between diesel and steam is 4 to 1 in favour of diesels.

Why? Put simply most RTR steam locomotives will not pull a decent length train. Some do alright on dead flat track, but once they get near a grade then the pulling power falls away. The central motor drive diesels will pull scale length trains. (I am talking about 12 coach and thirty plus wagon trains).

I can only judge the UK scene through the eyes of magazines and forums and it appears to me that diesels would be in front. There are a lot of 1970’s to current scene layouts around with no steam at all. There are the transition era layouts with both steam and diesel. These layouts seem to out-number the ‘Steam Only’ layouts. Whether what appears in the magazines translates over to what is happening across the UK is open the speculation!

[GC Jack]

 

Put simply most RTR steam locomotives will not pull a decent length train. Some do alright on dead flat track, but once they get near a grade then the pulling power falls away. The central motor drive diesels will pull scale length trains. (I am talking about 12 coach and thirty plus wagon trains).

 

 

In my experience that is a real factor. A model should be able to do the job of the prototype.

 

I have a DJH Duchess and in a trial on our club layout it had about twice the power of the Hornby version.

 

Modern model diesels can do the job they were built for.

 

I don't want to go down the old argument of kit or RTR being better, but haulage of scale length trains - if you have the space - can be a WOW factor and for me a real motivation to build kits.

 

Jack

[Edwin_m]

At the age of nearly 3 I was taken to see one of the end-of-steam railtours, my only memory of the era of main line steam, so at 46 now I guess I'm on the cusp of an era or some other fancy-sounding phrase.

 

My modelling interests are contemporary and the contemporary railway also pays my wages. However I still have an interest in earlier eras, I'm sure they will still exist in model form even when 1968 is no longer within living memory, and I believe it would be a crying shame if they didn't. My six-year-old is much more interested in steam than in D&E.

 

And I have a black 5 awaiting a decoder, to run railtours on my layout and remind me of that occasion.

[coachmann]

The DJH loco kit versus a RTR loco that cannot pull decent length trains puzzles me greatly. Has no one heard of lead?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Yeah, I was going to mention that in response to Darth Vader's post. The pulling force the model can exert is directly proportional to the mass on the driven wheels. The heavy centre motor types indicate what is required, and sensibly designed steam prototypes make models that can easily be made more than heavy enough.

 

Hint: model ER and feel the force...

[Lawrence]

This subject has popped up from time to time on ngaugeforum and I can only discuss that scale as that is what I model. A few of the guys have actually got so fed up with what's on offer for the British steam n gauge market they have switched to continental railways, and it would appear not to be so much how detailed they are (or not) or how accurately they are modelled but the simple fact that they do not run particularly well. We have guys adding blobs of bluetack or fishing weights to leading bogies to try and get better running from their locos, something the diesels or electrics do not suffer from.

 

PMP, in his post, alluded to the fact that N gauge steam models are getting better, and I am sure they are, yet many of our members seem to still be having issues with some of the big RTR manufacturers' products straight out of the box.

 

If PMP is indeed correct in what he says then that bodes well for the British N gauge modeller, it would take an awful lot for me to return to modelling British though, I am more than happy with my American and Japanese stock and I grew up with neither

[Dorsetmike]

David (Black Hat) said

For example, just about every single kind of Southern steam engine imaginable has been produced, meaning that everything from a Bornemouth Belle, to a slam door EMU and a Q1 arriving for a Terrier to shunt goods is catered for. As this is a growth area, and layouts are chosen cos the stock is there, shops order the novelty engines such as the radial tank, knowing modellers will buy this quaint novelty to augment the standard and well known bigger more common classes of engines

 

Obviously you are not familiar with the N gauge scene; currently if you choose to model pre WW2 then out of 115 classes that the SR inherited at grouping, whittled down to 86 by 1943, there are currently 4 RTR, Dapol M7 and Terrier, Union Mills 700 and T9 (unless UM have added something recently) if you add in the period up to nationalisation you can add the Q1 and spam cans.

 

If you add kits, current plus some discontinued, then classes B4 (0-4-0T) E2, E4, E5, S15, N15, G6, Z, spring to mind. Worsley Works do scratch aid etches for some other classes, but aimed more at he 2mm finescale scene.

 

For my chosen era and area, missing classes include Adams A12, X2, T3, T6, X6, T1, O2, 0395, Drummond K10, L11, L12, S11, D15, Urie H15, Maunsell N, N1, U, U1, N15, S15, Nelson, Schools; I could also probably justify some Ex LBSCR Atlantics, 4-4-0 and 0-6-0 classes.

 

I have done some kit and RTR hacking and scratch building to make A12, K10, Nelson, Maunsell N15 and S15 and planning an Adams 4-4-0, D15 and a mogul.

[coachmann]

When I used a T9 loco chassis to motorise my Hornby 2P, that was the easy part. The tough nut was getting the all-important tender electrical pick ups to work efficiently. Believe me that Fowler tender was chockablock full of old whitemetal castings before the darn thing would sent electricity to the loco. As for the 2P loco, there is lead under the cab roof and all over the place except over the leading end. If people are scared of doing anything to RTR plastic locos for fear of reducing their value, then I wonder why they even run them.

 

The railway in my lifetime was mucky....everything was mucky. So while modelling steam might not be falling out of favour, the art of modelling the real thing looks to becoming a stranger. Is this the influence of preserved mainline steam?

 

Incidently, I was prompted to look at a YouTube video of an excellent Lancashire & Yorkshire layout last night filmed by an RMweb member. Even though it was pregrouping days, the builders had taken a realistic approach to their modelling and the locos were all weathered to a degree. Coal and smoke are mucky substances and it showed on the models.

[GC Jack]

If people are scared of doing anything to RTR plastic locos for fear of reducing their value, then I wonder why they even run them.

 

 

 

A good point. But how many of them would dare to or have the skills?

 

Also raises an interesting question as to how people value and use their models, which does broaden the thread a little but is worthy of an interesting debate. So here goes with a few questions.

 

Does the higher cost of the latest RTR change the perception of the owner to the model?

 

I am sure Coachman with his professional background will be well aware of the demands of the "cheque book modeller". I suspect that many of his masterpieces are never allowed to hit the rails and languish in show cases.

 

So to add to this what do we want from our models?

 

Do to the job they were built for or to drool over their beauty? Enjoy the sound effects?

 

All of these? !

 

Jack