Is modelling steam falling out of favour?

[Darth Vader]

The DJH loco kit versus a RTR loco that cannot pull decent length trains puzzles me greatly. Has no one heard of lead?

 

Well yes. Once you get rid of the DCC 8 pin socket and fill what space there is with lead there is an increase in performance, but the loco is not a match for the diesels.

Only when you drape lead over the outside of the body can the steam locomotive match the diesel. Only problem is it won't all fit inside the body.

 

Yeah, I was going to mention that in response to Darth Vader's post. The pulling force the model can exert is directly proportional to the mass on the driven wheels. The heavy centre motor types indicate what is required, and sensibly designed steam prototypes make models that can easily be made more than heavy enough.

 

Hint: model ER and feel the force...

 

Well, yes, good design is showing through every now and them. Steam locomotives are now regularly made of combinations of metal and plastic. The best example is the Bachmann 9f, this will easily pull a 12 coach train, but not all RTR steam locomotives are this size either.

Also manufacturers are starting to put all the DCC stuff in the tender leaving more room in the locomotive for weight.

The advantage that the diesel has is; size for size with a steam locomotive there is more room for weight in the diesel.

[GC Jack]

I agree with you on RTR steam as I have said, but my DJH 9f is comparable in pulling power to my diesels!

 

Jack

[Dorsetmike]

Haulage capabilities in RTR N tend to be even worse, an exception being Union Mills tender driven locos and many of the continental offerings. Union Mills tender drives do have a good weighty metal body, I've used one under an etched tender kit and it is noticeably less capable.

 

White metal kits do have a weight advantage, best combination for pulling power I have is with a Langley S15 kit on a Fleischmann chassis with 8 wheel tender drive which managed over 30 Farish bogies (loft layout 25'x17' mostly level, sadly left behind when moving house)

[Poggy1165]

Falling out of favour among whom?

 

A lot of people only model subjects for which RTR is available, so if steam falls out of favour with manufacturers, then you will see a big decline.

 

Not everyone models 'what they grew up with'. What I grew up was dirty, in obvious decline, and gradually being ripped up/scrapped. My interest was always in the glory days that had preceded it. Mind you, I had did have lots of old railwaymen in my acquaintance and I loved listening to their tales. We are all different! To me history, and research, are at least as interesting as actual modelling.

[aberdare]

I grew up in the 60's and enjoyed watching and listening to my Dad modelling and talking about the 30's, his era. Once I had an interest in the hobby I was fascinated by the older things I had never seen before and loved the history and research involved in finding out about them. It was this that fired my interest for modelling the early 1900's which was a period of great change and progress.

 

I just think steam is great but equally as much I will admire and read about modern image. It's all about enjoyment and achieving whatever your dream is.

[Invicta]

 

That's pretty much the same for me as well. My spotting days were the early 80s but I'm now modelling late 50s. The modern railway has no interest for me whatsoever. I think the Napoleonic Wars are very well modelled by military modellers but there's no one alive from that era!

 

That's an interesting thought- It's easy to say 'we model what we know/remember', but is that a view that represents the majority of us (it certainly doesn't apply to me any more than it does to you- I was born in the 60's, my spotting days were in the mid/late 80's and I model mainly- though not exclusively- the mid/late 30's), and if so are we a different breed to other kinds of modeller?

 

It's a while since I've done any military or aircraft modelling, but I certainly recall WW2 and earlier being popular themes, and if what I see in the military/aviation modelling mags I occasionally flick through, they remain so. I'm guessing that the majority of aircraft/military modellers modelling WW2 weren't there at the time, (to say nothing of those modelling Napoleonic, or other older themes) so why do we appear to be different?

 

How about bus/car/truck modellers- again I've done a fair bit of motorsport-themed car modelling over the years, and my interests there vary between a period I do remember (70's/80s), and one I don't (50s/60's)

 

I suggested this in the other thread, and have probably mentioned it before- could there be a reasonable amount of young modellers who model steam because first exposure to the 'real railway' wasn't on the main line, but on heritage lines?

 

From memory, as a kid I travelled behind preserved steam on the GCR etc. elsewhere as much, if not more, than I did behind BR diesel on the main line, because I grew up in a town that lost passenger services before I was born- Trains were something I travelled on occasionally from a station 15 miles away for trips to London, or saw hauling coal through the middle of town where the station used to be.

 

Couple that with my first trainset being steam outline, and I've always been predominantly a steam modeller (and my childhood memories of seeing mainly freight trains probably accounts for my slightly excessive interest in modelling mineral wagons...)

 

I know a handful of young (ie under 25) steam modellers, and from conversations with them, preserved steam seems to have been a big influence for a couple of them

[t-b-g]

 

Well yes. Once you get rid of the DCC 8 pin socket and fill what space there is with lead there is an increase in performance, but the loco is not a match for the diesels.

Only when you drape lead over the outside of the body can the steam locomotive match the diesel. Only problem is it won't all fit inside the body.

 

 

 

Well, yes, good design is showing through every now and them. Steam locomotives are now regularly made of combinations of metal and plastic. The best example is the Bachmann 9f, this will easily pull a 12 coach train, but not all RTR steam locomotives are this size either.

Also manufacturers are starting to put all the DCC stuff in the tender leaving more room in the locomotive for weight.

The advantage that the diesel has is; size for size with a steam locomotive there is more room for weight in the diesel.

 

There are RTR pacifics (Bachmann & Hornby) pulling 12 coach trains (many brass/whitemetal fittings) round Retford, including up a hill. Most of them needed extra weight before they will do it but there is enough room.

[Kenton]

Personal memories of a particular era might be a reason for some. I can remember traveling to school behind a steam loco and my spotting days early mid 60's certainly still had plenty of it around. But I don't think that had any influence on me. Could there also be some influence from parents or grand-parents here. After all it was my father who played trains with me and helped to build my first real model railway. Going back to an even younger influence an uncle who bought me a clockwork train and circle of track on the carpet. I say bought advisedly because it was so old it may well have been a hand-me-down from his childhood of the WWI era.

 

But I think what makes us model and what we model is far much more complex.

 

One thing is certain in the 30's and 40's you would not have seen many modelling anything other than steam. So the answer to the OP question is a definite yes - however it has a long way to go.

[Guest Phil]

I was pretty disappointed to find the thread about "contemporary layouts for exhibitions" locked as I wanted to participate in it. I have no interest at all in the current scene, indeed TTG onwards started to lose my interest, but I couldn't help wanting to make a comment in the thread about modern railways being boring and having little "action".

 

In June 1980 I started working at Bescot and found the place absolutely amazing. Many afternoons there would be trains standing out in loops waiting to get into Bescot. That is the way it was - along with the whole variety thing. At this stage I must point out that the only passenger service was an hourly "all stations" EMU which shuttled back and fore, Sundays excepted.

 

Fast forward to today and there are now four trains an hour each way through Bescot - two Walsall EMUs and two Cannock line DMUs - until recently 150s/153s and 170s. This is in addition to whatever stuff passes through on the Grand Junction lines.

 

Birmingham New St a busy place. It is actually much busier now because the vast majority or trains are actually half trains. With the exception of four XC HSTs and the Pendolino service, you'll generally find two different trains in each platform - one on the A end and one on the B end.

 

I am not saying the whole railway is like that, but there are large chunks of the "metropolitan" districts of Network Rail which have an immense train service compared to twenty or thirty years ago.Take Landor St junction outside Saltley as an example - there are 12 XC trains an hour passing this junction, as well as at least one or two freights an hour each way, and all sorts of other traffic.

 

Boring for me yes, but you cannot say the railways are not busy these days.

 

Returning to the OP - it will take an awful long time, maybe thirty years, but yes, I do see steam becoming a minority modelling interest in the UK. It will however be a while after all class 66 66001 has been preserved, and there are just a handful left in service !!!!

[newbryford]

 

Returning to the OP - it will take an awful long time, maybe thirty years, but yes, I do see steam becoming a minority modelling interest in the UK. It will however be a while after all class 66 66001 has been preserved, and there are just a handful left in service !!!!

 

And everything wil be powered by a "Mr Fusion" generator...........................

 

"Where we're going, we don't need roads..............."

 

Although I'm firmly a diesel (and maybe soon to be electric modeller), steam will never be in a minority, simply because it does invoke far more emotion that diesel locos ever can. Maybe the next generation of steam layouts will be based upon preservation themes

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

I don't believe I just typed that

[Downendian]

In essence we model as individuals, and this thread reflects those opinions. Some base their layouts on their childhood memories, some on the present, some on the past before they were born or can remember. For me it's definately nostalgia, my happy childhood and grand BR network tour 1974-9. But I also love the scene I just missed, the hydraulic heyday and the pilot diesels of the1960s. Rightly or wrongly I always believe that railways were much more interesting in the past- I certainly thought that in the 1970s and do so now. But then some of my RMweb friends are fans of the modern scene and I thoroughly respect their positions, and have watched the demise of the class 60 fleet with interest, as it brings back memories of the Westerns going.

 

In terms of steam I've developed a roster for a S&DJR based layout which i plan to build. I have marvelled (and purchased) at the recent releases and especially the big freight 2-8-0s (Bachmann 7F, Hornby 28XX). The S&D was a railway that I had tantalising glimpses of as a kid, I remember an operational "Northern branch" of it, the line to Mangotsfield, and remnants of the Evercreech branch at Highbridge, but nothing more. The rest is from books and on here. I really have enjoyed the stories from older members on here of what spotting was like in the 1950s and 1960s - and I'm envious.

 

In fact most of my recent loco purchases have been steam, so I for one hope that the amazing production line of new models doesn't dry up, and I'm very much looking forward to my Beyer-Garratt from Heljan. After all, now that the class 16 is being done all that is left to do (excepting DMUs and EMUs) in terms of new loco releases is steam - and boy is there a lot to do still there.

 

Neil

[PLD]

Seems to me this thread is a fusion of, and mostly going over the same ground already covered very recently in the 'Is the Hobby Changing' (from kit/scratch building to more r-t-r) and 'Lack of Contemporary Layouts at Exhibitions' threads. Three pages in, and I don't see anything new not already said in one of those threads...

 

Personally, I'm glad to see plently of VARIETY of scales, eras, locations and prototypes at most exhibitions. It would be pretty boring to find a hall full of similar layouts be they GWR BLTs, Diesel Depots, or whatever else, even if they matched your own preferences...

 

Paul

[The Black Hat]

Dont Bachmann and Hornby normally announce two new steam engines to every one diesel or heritage unit they do?

[Guest jim s-w]

Perhaps theres more discussion on the D&E stuff because the real thing is more familiar to more people. After all the phrase the good old days is there for a reason, as time passes the memories fade and distort.

 

Factor in memory, less photographs and perhaps less examples to look at and you could easily argue that people dont tend to detail or perhaps 'correct' steam locos as there are less and less people with an accurate idea of what 'correct' actually is.

 

Another factor is (and artists will know this) the more complicated something is, the easier it is to 'get away with it'. Detail rich steam locos with are going to be easier to get looking right than simple shapes like diesels where each individual line is much more important due to the fact that theres less of them.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Guest jim s-w]

 

After all, now that the class 16 is being done all that is left to do (excepting DMUs and EMUs) in terms of new loco releases is steam - and boy is there a lot to do still there.

 

Neil

 

And again people miss a whole form of traction that pounded up and down the WCML for over 40 years and the ECML for over 20 - Electric! I would love to know why people are so blind to what was really the Duchesses and A4's of the last near half century!

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[newbryford]

 

And again people miss a whole form of traction that pounded up and down the WCML for over 40 years and the ECML for over 20 - Electric!

 

(Apologies for O/T from the original thread - maybe it should've been on my contemporary layouts discussion?)

 

You're opening a whole new can of worms Jim.

I think that OLE and to a lesser extent, 3rd rail, is a stumbling block. Until someone comes up with OLE as simple as Peco flexitrack, then overhead layouts will definitely be in the minority.

 

I would like to be proven wrong.

 

Going even more O/T with regard to electric traction, what about the likes of Class 71/74 and the original 70's?

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Downendian]

 

And again people miss a whole form of traction that pounded up and down the WCML for over 40 years and the ECML for over 20 - Electric! I would love to know why people are so blind to what was really the Duchesses and A4's of the last near half century!

 

Cheers

 

Jim

Yes Jim you are right. I'm not blind just forgetful!

Neil

['CHARD]

....than simple shapes like diesels where each individual line is much more important due to the fact that theres less of them.

 

Less of them yes, but among these 'simple' shapes there tends to be plenty of compound curves and blends, which probably emphasizes even further how important it is to get them right (Heljan 52 cab, Bachy 55 nose and 25 domes, any class 40, to name just a few).

[Oldddudders]

To return to the OP's headline question, I would offer this simple fact.

 

Kernow have recently offered, in limited numbers, an OO model of an obscure, elderly 2-4-0 WT. The number of the prototype of these in service during much of the C20 was precisely three, and they all lived happily together in a very remote part of the country. They didn't work many passenger trains, and in their later years one really didn't do much except act as station pilot, while the other two headed up a short-ish branch to a local industry. The models do not lend themselves to ready modification to any other prototype that I can think of.

 

Everyone concurs the model is simply delicious, but it is small and not cheap, yet they are apparently flying out of Kernow's premises as fast as they can pack them. The vast majority of the purchasers simply cannot be modelling that area, so I infer that the steam loco itself is the attraction. There are an awful lot of people putting their money down for something that doesn't historically have a place on their layout. I conclude from this that steam is still popular beyond specific prototype, just because it is steam.

[Craigw]

....than simple shapes like diesels where each individual line is much more important due to the fact that theres less of them.

 

Not really true Jim. I would suggest that your familiarity with diesels and lack of familiarity with steam has a lot to do with this. If you objectively sit down and compare the vast majority of steam releases with the real thing you will find shrunken, pushed out cylinders, buffer beam and splasher disparity and a myriad of other things. Even things like chimneys and domes are often not quite right and it has an enormous effect on the face of a loco.

 

But, the problem is that a lot of these things are a compromise to get around small radius curves or simply cant be easily corrected. (over scale rounded boiler bands anyone?). The only alternative in many cases is the higher end kits, but they are a lot of work and many, many people are not at all comfortable with attempting them.

 

So, if you cannot readily modify something without wrecking it or the finish you look for the good points and tolerate the others.

 

It is the same wether it is a steam, diesel or electric prototype... or rolling stock.

 

regards,

 

Craig W

[GC Jack]

I do agree with Craig.

 

There are some RTR steam locos that look wrong, but it is difficult to analyse why.

 

Perhaps someone could enlighten me on one example - Hornby's Black 5.

 

To my eyes it doesn't work, it appears delicate and in many ways I think - heresy - that the earlier version, despite it crude mouldings and chunky valve gear, was closer to the feel of the real thing.

 

Jack

[Jamie]

GC Jack, the Hornby Stanier 5 is one of the oldest "new-generation" models out there, and I agree it doesn't stand up that well nowadays. To see what scope there is for improvement, have a look here:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/19802-detailing-a-Hornby-black-5

 

I haven't gone quite as far with my handful of the type, but with the main modifications in place they do start to get closer to hitting the mark.

[Barry Ten]

Dont Bachmann and Hornby normally announce two new steam engines to every one diesel or heritage unit they do?

 

There's a much larger pool of possible subjects to draw from, though - more than a century of mainstream steam development, countless builders, compared with 50-odd years of diesel/electric prototypes from a much smaller range of manufacturers. Granted the difference is becoming smaller, but there are still numerous untapped steam classes which could be tackled.

[Kenton]

 

And again people miss a whole form of traction that pounded up and down the WCML for over 40 years and the ECML for over 20 - Electric!  I would love to know why people are so blind to what was really the Duchesses and A4's of the last near half century!

 

Cheers

Jim

It is bad enough to cope with a tangle of wires under the baseboard without having to cope with the same mess above the board. Not only that, but getting your hands in and out of the cobweb during "hand-of-god" movements would simply be too much.

 

I think the real thing looks really untidy too.

[coachmann]

I dont think modellers are missing the electric traction, they are ignoring it just as enthusasts have for years. There were EMU's out of Oxford Road station and the old L&Y 'boxes' out of Manchester Vic for years but no one I knew had any interest in them when steam abounded everywhere. When Woodhead was electrified in 1954, that was the end for many enthusiasts of the day. I was virtually on my own when photing the DC electrics in the 1970s and only the threat of closure brought photographers trackside a few years later. That said, the DC locos do look very attractive in model form and I foresee a growth of 'Woodheads' when the things become available.