Midland Main Line Electrification

[ess1uk]

Meanwhile back on the MML

is there any indication in the IRP as to when the scheme will restart?

[eastwestdivide]

34 minutes ago, ess1uk said:

Meanwhile back on the MML

is there any indication in the IRP as to when the scheme will restart?

maybe 2026-27 according to Figure 9 in the document - see my earlier post at:

 

[ess1uk]

So about 4 years to get to Market Harborough disband the team, set it up again and carry on north?

sure it makes sense to someone 

[phil-b259]

9 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Maybe, but I am of the mindset that things are only going to get sh*ttier for the masses from here on in.

 

Yup - but there is an old saying 'you reap what you sow' 

 

Ever since the industrial revolution humans have been consuming resources and creating rubbish / pollutants far beyond our planets ability to cope  - something has to permanently change if we are to have a decent future as a species.

 

That 'change' ultimately has to be about consuming less, and a fundamental rethink of capitalism which demands unsustainable levels of growth as the key measure of prosperity - which will translate as folk having 'sh*ttier' lives than previous generations.

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by phil-b259

[woodenhead]

6 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

That 'change' ultimately has to be about consuming less, and a fundamental rethink of capitalism which demands unsustainable levels of growth as the key measure of prosperity - which will translate as folk having 'sh*ttier' lives than previous generations.

 

I agree that there needs to be fundamental change, but just like it was the masses who bought and did everything to feed to few at the very top who continue to get richer, it will be the masses once more who suffer the most whilst the richest remain and get richer.

 

Battle Royale, Hunger Games and Squid Game are all a grislier representation of how the rich look down and use the masses for their own ends.

Edited November 20, 2021 by woodenhead
spelling

[phil-b259]

6 hours ago, ess1uk said:

So about 4 years to get to Market Harborough disband the team, set it up again and carry on north?

sure it makes sense to someone 

 

To the Treasury / DfT it does.

 

Given the way Covid decimated rail revenues they will want to see passenger numbers recover a bit more before splashing the cash.

 

Also NR is currently subject to a recruitment freeze and ministers have made no secret of their desire to tackle what they see as the 'unaffordable gold plated pensions / restrictive trade Union agreements' so a delay in starting the IRP gives time to have the inevitable prolonged showdown with the RMT while ministers try and 'break them'.

Edited November 21, 2021 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

1 minute ago, woodenhead said:

I agree that there needs to be fundamental change, but just like it was the masses who bought and did everything to feed to few at the very top who continue to get richer, it will be the masses once more who suffer the most whilst the richest remain and get richer.

 

Battle Royale, Hunger Games and Squid Game are all a grislier representation of how the rich look down and use the masses for their own ends.

 

Agreed - but in a democracy change can only come if voters are willing to rise up and dump the elite. Regrettably with the British mentality tending to be more concerned about personal wealth / status (i.e. selfish and greedy) than building a just society as a whole, its very easy for the ruling elites to buy them off come election time.

 

Thing is thats not new tactic - the whole 'bread and circuses' quote about the Roman empire shows they were aware that people wouldn't be that interested in major change as long their base instincts of greed and having a comfortable life could be met.

[lmsforever]

Rise up and dump the elite sounds like something a little book from the sixties thank god we have moved on now . Many voters only care about the price of fags and booze then get upset if they are affected by something else  maybe the young will change the outlook on everything.

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, lmsforever said:

Rise up and dump the elite sounds like something a little book from the sixties thank god we have moved on now.

 

It does but - there is an element of truth about it. For too long Government / Whitehall has been dominated by those affluent enough to attend public schools and whose backgrounds are seemingly dominated by law or finance who either don't care about the public at large - particularly those elements seen as being to poor / uneducated to matter.

[corneliuslundie]

I am not sure that it is "don't care" so much as "haven't a clue" about the lives of the majority of the population.

But we continue to elect them, in the absence of any other reasonable choices. But what sensible person would be a politician anyway?

But slightly nearer to the topic, I have a feeling that the problem is as much with the Civil Service as the elected politicians. We have seen this influence in other railway projects and problems. The politicians come and go but the senior Civil Servants are there all the time and simply tell the politicians what to say.

It has long been thus. I recently read a biography of the wartime Minister of Food, Lord Woolton (he started in the job as plain Mr). He wasn't a politician, he was a businessman, and horrified the ministry staff when he did things his own way rather than the "proper" way. Churchill didn't like him because he wasn't a "proper" politician but he put up with him because he got results, and quickly. Where can we find someone like Lord Woolton for SS of Transport?

Jonathan

[griffgriff]

22 hours ago, Zomboid said:

It's never been about pandering to those going to London though. The current HS2 scheme is an extra pair of tracks on the WCML, which creates lots of extra capacity on the existing lines by getting the people traveling between the big cities out of the way of those who aren't.

 

There's a time spent traveling to New Street/ Euston for the existing routes in any case. That's just a fact of train travel, you have to get to the station wherever it is.

Just an observation of my own habits. When I go to London I normally drive. It’s cheaper, suits my circumstances and more convenient (and faster in most cases but speed - and this is an important point - isn’t an issue for me).

 

When I have traveled to London by train recently then I’ve gone to Litchfield or Tamworth to take advantage of significantly cheaper fares… again speed isn’t my priority.  
 

I can’t see HS2 being cheaper so I doubt I’ll be changing my habits any time soon…. I’m now going to reveal the ultimate irony….

 

…..East Midlands Parkway is walking distance away (approximately 2 miles) and I’ve not used EMP to go to London for nearly 10 years!
 

I admit my circumstances are particular to me and I doubt there are many others that share them but my point about price is, I feel, important. It doesn’t matter how much extra capacity you make if the majority of passengers don’t change their habits because it’s too expensive.  Those Euston stoppers will still be crowded by those seeking a bargain and they will be joined by those who can’t afford high speed rail.

 

Just a thought.

 

Griff

Edited November 21, 2021 by griffgriff
Spelling

[Hobby]

11 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Agreed - but in a democracy change can only come if voters are willing to rise up and dump the elite. Regrettably with the British mentality tending to be more concerned about personal wealth / status (i.e. selfish and greedy) than building a just society as a whole, its very easy for the ruling elites to buy them off come election time.

 

You make it sound as if it's just the British that behave like that, but the rest of the West is just the same. And when the "masses" see the results of the alternative, where it often starts with best intentions but then goes horribly wrong, they tend to think that perhaps the current alternative is better for them to keep the status quo, warts and all...

Edited November 21, 2021 by Hobby
spelling

[KingEdwardII]

12 minutes ago, griffgriff said:

When I go to London I normally drive.

When my wife & I go to London, we drive to the outskirts at Richmond (usually), park up and get either the train or the tube depending on where we're going. Way cheaper than parking at Winchester and using the train from there and not much slower. Once you're within the London zones, travel becomes much more affordable and parking @ Winchester is not much cheaper than in Richmond.

 

Cost is always a factor.

 

Where I always used rail was when travelling on business to meetings and events in London. The faster journeys and the ability to work on the train counted for more than the cost, paid for by work expenses in any case. Eye wateringly expensive to use the early morning trains - £76.80 for a return Winchester - Waterloo. £41.90 if arriving after 10.00am.

 

But if there are 2 of you and you're travelling on your own cash - and retired now, in our case - even £83.80 is pretty steep for a trip to London. So car it is - not a hard calculation.

 

Yours,  Mike.

[griffgriff]

My sister in law has her own parking where she resides in north London and it’s only 5 minutes from the tube…. I’m very lucky in this respect.

 

Grff

[Zomboid]

It's not always cheap to get the train, especially if you're buying anytime fares.

 

But that is a result of the demand as much as anything else. At least before the plague hit they had no trouble filling the morning and evening trains between Waterloo and Winchester, even at those prices (though many would have been traveling on season tickets).

 

Everyone has their own circumstances, and yours are different to mine, which are different to everyone else's.

 

Which doesn't have much to do with MML electrification.

[ess1uk]

12 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

To the Treasury / DfT it does.

 

Given the way Covid decimated rail revenues they will want to see passenger numbers recover a bit more before splashing the cash.

 

Also NR is currently subject to a recruitment freeze and ministers have made no secret of their desire to tackle what they see as the 'unaffordable gold plated pensions / restrictive trade Union agreements' so a delay in starting the IRP gives time to have the inevitable prolonged showdown with the RMT while ministers try and 'break them'.

No recruiting freeze but asking people to leave at the same time.

 

if the scheme was ready to go before and half done and now there is more money then why not just pick up and carry on?

probably as most of the team has left? 

[62613]

4 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I am not sure that it is "don't care" so much as "haven't a clue" about the lives of the majority of the population.

But we continue to elect them, in the absence of any other reasonable choices. But what sensible person would be a politician anyway?

But slightly nearer to the topic, I have a feeling that the problem is as much with the Civil Service as the elected politicians. We have seen this influence in other railway projects and problems. The politicians come and go but the senior Civil Servants are there all the time and simply tell the politicians what to say.

It has long been thus. I recently read a biography of the wartime Minister of Food, Lord Woolton (he started in the job as plain Mr). He wasn't a politician, he was a businessman, and horrified the ministry staff when he did things his own way rather than the "proper" way. Churchill didn't like him because he wasn't a "proper" politician but he put up with him because he got results, and quickly. Where can we find someone like Lord Woolton for SS of Transport?

Jonathan

Equally, Max Aitken (Lord Beverbrook) who did the same for war production

[griffgriff]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

It's not always cheap to get the train, especially if you're buying anytime fares.

 

But that is a result of the demand as much as anything else. At least before the plague hit they had no trouble filling the morning and evening trains between Waterloo and Winchester, even at those prices (though many would have been traveling on season tickets).

 

Everyone has their own circumstances, and yours are different to mine, which are different to everyone else's.

 

Which doesn't have much to do with MML electrification.

Very true but I live on the line so perhaps my view may be more valid than a Waterloo traveler ( been there done that lol) but if they can’t persuade someone who is actually looking at EMP from their bedroom window to use it then they need to work harder to get my £ ….. btw loading on MML wasn’t exactly heavy before lockdown unless you wanted an early train….. in which case demand required a kings ransom rather than just a second mortgage  

 

Griff

[KingEdwardII]

2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Which doesn't have much to do with MML electrification

It was a discussion relating to costs/fares, which are always relevant, so I provided examples which I know personally. Sorry that I don't live on the MML, although I have travelled it on several occasions. On the other hand I am 100% supportive of any project for electrification. I think that the UK is extraordinarily backward with respect to electrification.

 

As for station locations, I can see the point of "Parkway" type stations away from city centres, if they are well served by roads. It can be troublesome to use city centre stations, both with congestion getting to them and the expense of parking once you're there. But as griffgriff mentioned - if the costs of using such a station are higher than easily available alternatives, people will go elsewhere.

 

Yours, Mike.

[KingEdwardII]

1 minute ago, KingEdwardII said:

"Parkway" type stations

Which reminds me of another recent experience. We had a vacation based in Kenilworth near Warwick. One day we decided to pay a visit to Birmingham by train and first thought of using Warwick Parkway station. Until we discovered that quite a few trains stopping at Warwick station (in the town centre) don't stop at Warwick Parkway - i.e. Parkway had a poorer service. So we travelled via Warwick station and Parkway didn't get a look-in. I was surprised by this. So cost certainly isn't the only factor.

 

Yours,  Mike.

[Fat Controller]

7 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I am not sure that it is "don't care" so much as "haven't a clue" about the lives of the majority of the population.

But we continue to elect them, in the absence of any other reasonable choices. But what sensible person would be a politician anyway?

But slightly nearer to the topic, I have a feeling that the problem is as much with the Civil Service as the elected politicians. We have seen this influence in other railway projects and problems. The politicians come and go but the senior Civil Servants are there all the time and simply tell the politicians what to say.

It has long been thus. I recently read a biography of the wartime Minister of Food, Lord Woolton (he started in the job as plain Mr). He wasn't a politician, he was a businessman, and horrified the ministry staff when he did things his own way rather than the "proper" way. Churchill didn't like him because he wasn't a "proper" politician but he put up with him because he got results, and quickly. Where can we find someone like Lord Woolton for SS of Transport?

Jonathan

Didn't Andrew (now Lord) Adonis fulfil a role like this under both Blair/Brown and Cameron/ May?

[Hobby]

7 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

Until we discovered that quite a few trains stopping at Warwick station (in the town centre) don't stop at Warwick Parkway - i.e. Parkway had a poorer service. So we travelled via Warwick station and Parkway didn't get a look-in. I was surprised by this. So cost certainly isn't the only factor.

 

I'm not sure its still the case, but I believe that Chiltern built the station and charge other users for using it, so LM don't use it and I can only ever remember stopping there once with an XC train and that was to help out Chiltern who were having issues! Don't think we were charged!!

[griffgriff]

I should say I’m all for electrification and I was dismayed when it was put on the back burner but it’s justification seams to be on service improvement rather than environmental reasons which I find puzzling. 
 

East Midlands Parkway is, of course, next to a power station site…. Word is that once the coal burning is finished power will be generated by burning rubbish and with a new experimental portable nuclear power plant…. Now that’s a whole new environmental debate :0

 

Griff

[DY444]

2 hours ago, griffgriff said:

I should say I’m all for electrification and I was dismayed when it was put on the back burner but it’s justification seams to be on service improvement rather than environmental reasons which I find puzzling. 
 

East Midlands Parkway is, of course, next to a power station site…. Word is that once the coal burning is finished power will be generated by burning rubbish and with a new experimental portable nuclear power plant…. Now that’s a whole new environmental debate :0

 

Griff

 

If by "experimental portable nuclear power plant" the "word" means the RR SMR then it is wrong.  If they go ahead they will be on sites which have had nuclear installations before, so unless a lot of people have been very good at keeping secrets that does not include the Ratcliffe on Soar site.

Edited November 21, 2021 by DY444

[griffgriff]

1 hour ago, DY444 said:

 

If by "experimental portable nuclear power plant" the "word" means the RR SMR then it is wrong.  If they go ahead they will be on sites which have had nuclear installations before, so unless a lot of people have been very good at keeping secrets that does not include the Ratcliffe on Soar site.

I see it was clarified at the beginning of the month…. but it was reported earlier in the year on the BBC I believe.  

oops….

 

Edit

I got my wires crossed ….. 

 

…. It has been reported (BBC/Rushcliffe Borough Council) that Ratcliffe could be the location for a prototype fusion reactor (yes that old chestnut) not very portable at all.

 

Back on topic….. 

 

Griff

Edited November 21, 2021 by griffgriff
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