APOLLO Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 It will be one hell of an engineering / logistical job converting all the SE 3rd rail to OHLE. It will take many years as well. There will, no doubt, be many locations / instances where both co-exist, probably in some places for a considerable time also. Any chance of going for higher OHLE to allow for double deck trains ?. I know this is controversial, and no-one will agree, but we MUST plan long term for the slow dissapearance of the automobile (at least as we all know & own). 100% rail electrification alone is not the solution to this. Thinking long term here - 20 years+. Brit15 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fay Singpoint Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I have been told that Standedge Tunnel on the Trans Pennine route will accommodate the knitting. Slab track is another useful option if there are issues with squeezing in some OLE. Stalybridge Tunnel is the more challenging problem as today we have cant on straight track to keep the trains off the brickwork. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62613 Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Staly Tunnel is on a curve! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Oh definitely an agenda, and can you blame them with potential for saving up to a third off the electric bill up for grabs if it works! Incidentally of the whole plan it was said on BBC news this evening that the first money for all these schemes will be released in 2014. If design work is contingent on that funding we are unlikely to see work starting on anything announced today until probably 2016 unless it is immediately connected with the schemes previously announced. Thus, for example, we might well see the Thames Valley branches wired before the MML as they conveniently fall into the existing GWML works .. and so on. I think that makes a lot of sense, and it also builds towards the 'rolling programme' way of doing it as well, the GWML and NW electrifications kick things off, then there's plenty of follow-on work for the two teams there to get their teeth into - plus the DfT will want to know what's next on the hitlist so it can be worked into P6...the interesting thing with those is how you split the 2 second schemes, does the NW team then do TPX north and then works down the MML, whilst the GWML team then works North from Oxford and South from Reading - if so the second team might even get away with not having to relocate? Provided they can keep the momentum going for the two teams (whilst presumably trying to fit it into the HLOS periods!) it's got potential. Lots of potential for them to stuff it up then! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpion Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 interesting how some of the omissions are so glaring that they must be corrected, by someone, eg, a freight spine to the north that ends at Sheffield Midland, leaving it to South and West Yorkshire ptes to fill in the essential links Micklefield to Selby, leaving Temple Hirst to Hull for someone to pick up, all very clever but definitely heading in the right direction Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Problem with leaving sections for PTEs to fund is that they are likely to only fund a system that can only cope with 4 car emus such as the problems that have existed in running 91s to Skipton. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForestPines Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I presume the (re)quadrupling [of Lawrence Hill-Filton] is largely predicated on local passenger flows as a 3 minute headway for non-stopping services gives considerable capacity and in the 1980s we had no real problems pathing the (fairly limited in number, and then declining) freight services using the route although they have increased in number in recent times due to use of Portishead for imported coal etc. As someone who lives next to this line and uses it regularly: it now seems to be getting close to its capacity, and Lawrence Hill and Stapleton Road stations already have very odd and unbalanced stopping patterns which are presumably caused by capacity problems. For example, up Weston-Parkway services stop at these stations, but down ones don't; on the other hand, a lot of Gloucester-Bristol-Westbury services stop at those stations in that direction, but not in the reverse direction. FGW did experiment with Severn Beach trains not stopping at Lawrence Hill, but that only lasted a few months: I suspect the city council, who subsidise that line, complained. Said city council is now pushing for reopened stations at Horfield and Ashley Down, which is only going to cause more pressure. And at a rough guess, freight services are now at around 1tph in each direction for most of the day. (the big shame will be losing the rather nice volunteer-run garden centre at Stapleton Road station, but, I suppose, such is progress) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I was beaten to it, but I too wondered where the nuclear power station to run all this was going to be built? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Third rail conversion is actually part of the answer to where the power comes from. If you converted the whole of the Southern to 25kV the power saved would probably be enough to run the Midland Main Line! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fay Singpoint Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Staly Tunnel is on a curve! er.. not all of it (and i've walked it) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
£1.38 Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I was beaten to it, but I too wondered where the nuclear power station to run all this was going to be built? It probably exists already, somewhere in France 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Very true but I do read something of 'an agenda' in the HLOS insistence that ohle will replace 3rd rail in this electrification. Obviously it makes sense to provide 25kv ohle and it equally there is sense in having only one system of electrification although there seems nowadays to be little technical difficulty in using both on the same piece of railway. But clearly 'someone somewhere' wants to see their pet idea of ohle replacing 3rd rail given a run and - at first sight - this is the obviously the route to choose. Seems to me that if the decision is taken to install OLE then it would be an unforgivable waste of taxpayers money to keep the third rail underneath it! The justification for replacement is very largely to avoid the renewal costs of the third rail and particularly its power supply, where presumably the equipment installed at first electrification is coming up to life expiry. But I wonder if the implications, and on-costs, have yet been fully thought through or if we're looking more at the hypothesis rather than the practical design and operational railway element? Clearly implementation will be some years away - probably nearer a decade away rather than 'just around the corner' so things might well change a bit as the practical implications are assessed and costed. I really can't see any significant implications. I believe Network Rail has been re-visiting the original RSSB work so the costs have probably been looked at at least once more and will be re-visited several times through the GRIP process. Structures works are pretty well understood and can be costed reliably bar the occasional unforeseen event, and by the time this happens the same will be true of electrification. The signalling on much of the route is fairly new and probably already has AC immunity, and one would hope they have costed for replacement rather than immunisation of any remaining older signalling that hasn't been renewed in the meantime. Operationally the trains have to work reliably in dual voltage operation - demonstrated with the same traction package when the London Midland 350s deputised for Southern's through trains via Clapham a couple of years back. Perhaps the only gap is some remaining uncertainty about the extent of losses on the third rail which I think is still based on theoretical modelling rather than actual measurement. However as soon as a sizeable fleet of units is fitted with power metering then the relationship between the power going in and the power coming out will become much clearer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Really glad to see the Welsh valleys getting the wires up, They always seem to be very well used but commuting on them pacers every day has to be very tedious. Im sure they will get cast aways from another region but as long as its got bogies that has to be an upgrade. That'll be novel, Wales getting electricity! But, back to post 180, according to son, they could use Turbostars on the Uckfield line, but the standard length Turbostar is 11cars not 10...harumph. Power imported from France is DC and has to be converted back to AC when it gets here, something to do with Europe being out of phase with us. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted July 17, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 17, 2012 I think that last comment was meant to be a joke??? French electricity has the same phase/frequency as we do. You would not want to be transporting electricity over long distance on DC. The cables would have to be as big as the Channel Tunnel. I would guess that the 319s may end up in The Cardiff Valleys rather than in the Thames Valley. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DavidLong Posted July 17, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2012 I think that last comment was meant to be a joke??? French electricity has the same phase/frequency as we do. You would not want to be transporting electricity over long distance on DC. The cables would have to be as big as the Channel Tunnel. I would guess that the 319s may end up in The Cardiff Valleys rather than in the Thames Valley. I thought that the 319s were supposed to be coming to the North West but we'll probably end up with something older like the 317s David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Problem with leaving sections for PTEs to fund is that they are likely to only fund a system that can only cope with 4 car emus such as the problems that have existed in running 91s to Skipton. If you're thinking in terms of creating a strategic network though you can get the PTE to fund the bits they want and then fund the rest from elsewhere though, which may well be the kind of thing that has happenned in South Wales... Conspiracy theorists may wish to consider how much freight the Spine will take off WCML and whether that is enough to give the Government a reason to back out of HS2... Been thinking about this one, and my tin foil beanie comes off for this one, South of Bletchley this would only remove the couple of trains per day between Southampton and Daventry (assuming they were diverted via Bletchley and Oxford) - North of Bletchley it potentially adds more freight to the WCML and not less, plus for a short distance whatever service pattern is introduced from Aylesbury/Oxford to MK. The longer distance electric re-routes to the MML from Southampton are trains that run via Leamington, Tyseley and up to Derby at present, so don't touch the WCML at present (and won't in future either). And freight from the London end towards the West Midlands, North West or West Scotland that currently takes the WCML looks to be unchanged by this. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I would guess that the 319s may end up in The Cardiff Valleys rather than in the Thames Valley. Some will be needed in the Thames Valley... The HLOS actually says 'New Electric Trains' for the valleys, but how accurate that is we'll find out. Plenty of pacers out there to replace. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gronk the shunter Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Some will be needed in the Thames Valley... The HLOS actually says 'New Electric Trains' for the valleys, but how accurate that is we'll find out. Plenty of pacers out there to replace. My bet, which is based on nothing but a hunch, is that south Wales can look forward to class 313's/315's displaced by thameslink / crossrail. Then again some bright spark (pun intended) might try an put a pantograph on a pacer! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Thameslink shouldn't displace many (any?) 313s as they run on the Moorgate line not through Thameslink, AFAIK the new stock order is to run the core Thameslink service and isn't built to the limited clearances of the Moorgate route - interestingly as probably the oldest MU operating today with FCC and Southern there don't seem to be any replacement plans yet though, although I do wonder if Southern will also trade theirs up for some 319s when those go up for grabs. 315s are a possibility if the WAG did go for a 'previously cherished' option, and the twin power cars on those should be handy on the hills... It'll presumably be down to the WAG to make that call though... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I think that last comment was meant to be a joke??? French electricity has the same phase/frequency as we do. You would not want to be transporting electricity over long distance on DC. The cables would have to be as big as the Channel Tunnel. I would guess that the 319s may end up in The Cardiff Valleys rather than in the Thames Valley. The undersea feed from Mandarins (near Coquelles) and Sellindge (next to the M20, between Folkestone and Ashford) is indeed DC, and at very high voltage. The diameter of cable required to carry a given amount of power is not related to whether the supply is AC or DC, but to the voltage- the higher the voltage, the smaller the cross-section of cable required. By using high-voltage DC, induction is no longer a problem, so several cables can be laid close together. Roy's reference to 'phase' was a joke, though there is an element of truth- the supply from Coquelles to the UK end of the Channel Tunnel can be one of three phases. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsforever Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 New stock will have to be sourced as there is only a finite number of trains available,but will they be ordered in time? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I thought that the Welsh were complaining that they were poor and out of work. Ed Not all of us (well poor may be, but not all out of work).Actually, Ms Greening was quick to credit the lobbying done by WAG Transport Secretary Cheryl Gillan which resulted in the stringing of Cardiff - Swanesa (both via the SWML & VoG) and all the valley lines.Oh and by the way, Westminster have offered to pay for these additional works, letting the WAG continue underwriting our prescriptions..... and visitors using the new trains can continue paying for their carrier bags.Brian RThere is a downside..... rumour had it sometime ago that should the valleys be electrified, the commuters will be rid of Pacers and Sprinters and will gain Cl.313s instead, or, if they get really lucky cascaded 319s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 17, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 17, 2012 Not all of us (well poor may be, but not all out of work).Actually, Ms Greening was quick to credit the lobbying done by WAG Transport Secretary Cheryl Gillan which resulted in the stringing of Cardiff - Swanesa (both via the SWML & VoG) and all the valley lines.Oh and by the way, Westminster have offered to pay for these additional works, letting the WAG continue underwriting our prescriptions..... and visitors using the new trains can continue paying for their carrier bags.Brian RThere is a downside..... rumour had it sometime ago that should the valleys be electrified, the commuters will be rid of Pacers and Sprinters and will gain Cl.313s instead, or, if they get really lucky cascaded 319s. Good to see the VoG is included - that helps make sense of electrifying the Valleys services as well (or vice versa) although I was surprised in some respects to see Maesteg included (although it makes good sense on a network/fleet basis). And no doubt you'll get the oldest units anyone can find - in South Wales they even regarded brand new EE Type 3s as someone else's cast-offs if some Radyr Drivers were to be believed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) The supply from Coquelles to the UK end of the Channel Tunnel can be one of three phases. Although the British and French networks are both three-phase systems running at a nominal 50Hz, they are controlled independently so the phases can shift slightly between the two. The DC link across the Channel is a bit like a much larger version of a three-phase traction package on an EMU, with electronics rectifying the AC to DC at one end and at the other producing AC in exact phase with the local network. Separately from this, because a particular section of AC railway only has one conductor it can only be supplied with one of the three phases of the high voltage distribution network. One way of maintaining balance between the phases is to feed nearby sections from different phases, but connecting the phases together would result in a huge short-circuit so they have to be separated by neutral sections. Edited July 17, 2012 by Edwin_m 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Good to see the VoG is included - that helps make sense of electrifying the Valleys services as well (or vice versa) although I was surprised in some respects to see Maesteg included (although it makes good sense on a network/fleet basis). And no doubt you'll get the oldest units anyone can find - in South Wales they even regarded brand new EE Type 3s as someone else's cast-offs if some Radyr Drivers were to be believed I would think Maesteg was included solely for operational necessity being the poorest performing 'valley line'.Who would ever have imagined overhead wires at Coryton ?Some of us can renmember when BR were considering closing the Rhymney line north of Bargoed, now it has reached capacity.Last week Cardiff County Council published its' Local Development Plan which suggests/allows the construction of up to 45,000 new homes in the Cardiff area.The largest concentration is 7,500 homes west of Pentrebane/north of St. Fagans and another concentration south of Creigiau.The plan makes reference to a 'park and ride' in the area near the M4 Jct.33 services - notwithstanding that an similar expensive facility adjacent to the A48 at Pentwyn went down like ratner's share value !Perhaps we could see a section of the former Llantrisant No.1 Branch from Waterhall Jct. reinstated as far as Creigiau, and strung with knitting .... financed by the WAG using the money they haven't had to spend on electrification ?Brian R 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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