Rugd1022 Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) That's true - the only way you can go is Leamington - Coventry (which is listed for wiring and 'additional double track' which sounds ok although it then dumps freights in the WM Corridor with heavy line occupation) and I was thinking of stuff being routed that way - and overlooked the WM corridor capacity issue (I wonder if 'someone else' has?). The alternative - although I don't know the ground at all well could possibly be to connnect off the Midland line to the Grand Junction where the latter crosses it in the vicinity of Washwood Heath. Or are they envisaging freights for 'the north' avoiding Brum completely and going Leamington - Coventry - Nuneaton? Well there is a precedent for this Mike, as there used to be a connection from the Stetchford - Aston line down to the down side of the Washwood Heath - Saltley section many years ago, albiet a very short and very tight one. Whether or not it's possible to reinstate a chord here is of course another matter! Edited July 16, 2012 by Rugd1022 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Ref electric loco's, last year Bombardier offered a TRAXX derivative for use in the UK (with 'last mile' capability) as a potential class 90 replacement for Anglia services - nothing came of it (or at least nothing has yet) but they clearly think they have a capable design. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Will there be enough electrical capacity to support these electrification schemes? In recent times there's been much talk about the power gap that's said to be looming, as forecast demand is expected to outstrip the supply of electricity by the end of this decade. With nuclear stations being gradually de-commissioned, renewable supplies struggling to achieve the 15% target share and a delayed decision on future nuclear strategy, major schemes like railway electrification are going to put a huge strain on the system. I wonder if this topic will get a public airing in light of today's announcement? . 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 It's certainly an issue that needs to be dealt with, for the country as a whole and not just the railways... (Only just managed to avoid calling it a live issue...phew!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted July 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 16, 2012 Sorry to bump my own post but I wasn't being facetious. I am genuinely interested in whether it would be more difficult to make electric locos fit for our loading gauge than it is for diesels especially as Vossloh seem confident to do it for Eurolight. A degree of this plan announced today seems to be predicated on more electric haulage of freight and it is unlikely in this case that the USA would be a source for motive power so European sources would seem to be favourite. David Easier to make electric locos to UK loading gauge than diesel locos. Quite a lot of spare speace within the bodywork of many European electric locos. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Well there is a precedent for this Mike, as there used to be a connection from the Stetchford - Aston line down to the down side of the Washwood Heath - Saltley section many years ago, albiet a very short and very tight one. Whether or not it's possible to reinstate a chord here is of course another matter! I look at that spot practically every day (assuming I'm awake - unlike you lads, I'm on the cushions!). Given the proximity of the adjacent Aston Church Road (that the chord presumably crossed by way of a bridge, dropping at the same time and curving to meet the Castle Brom line), I can't ever quite picture how the chord must've looked in my mind's eye. You can see the shape of the railway boundary on the lower route though, which does suggest a curve once diverged at this point. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gronk the shunter Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Ref electric loco's, last year Bombardier offered a TRAXX derivative for use in the UK (with 'last mile' capability) as a potential class 90 replacement for Anglia services - nothing came of it (or at least nothing has yet) but they clearly think they have a capable design. Of course, with a bit more "strategic" planning we'd still have a fleet of 35 relatively modern 5000hp electric bo-bo locos (class 87) that could run in multiple, that would have cost nothing to buy and had a fair few years left in them until there was enough wiring to justify the higher costs of brand new loco's. At least the Bulgarian's and the scrapman were kept happy. Or am I being overly simplistic? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Just read through the document issued by the DfT and it seems to suggest that the new Bi mode HST replacement will not be used West of Bristol. I don't think it ever was planned to be used west of Bristol - West of England would use refurbished HSTs. With electrification through to Swansea then as far as I can see the only Western bi-modes would run to Cheltenham and the Cotswold line plus the couple to Carmarthen if those still run. Possibly it would be better to use refurbished HSTs for these too. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) I see the other thread on third rail conversion has been revived so I'll reply to those points on there. Edited July 16, 2012 by Edwin_m Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Of course, with a bit more "strategic" planning we'd still have a fleet of 35 relatively modern 5000hp electric bo-bo locos (class 87) that could run in multiple, that would have cost nothing to buy and had a fair few years left in them until there was enough wiring to justify the higher costs of brand new loco's. At least the Bulgarian's and the scrapman were kept happy. Or am I being overly simplistic? Without getting into the simplicity argument over the 87s, the same comment could better be levelled at the under-utilised 90s and 92s, which are more modern still. Having been there at the time of the 87s' rundown, it is somewhat simplistic to imagine the entire fleet as some sort of strategic reserve, irrespective of the leasing company and others' commercial imperatives. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 And while not necessarily life expired, they aren't actually that modern either, the newest 87s are 37 years old The newest 90s are 22 and the newest 92s are 16 so a fair bit newer 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I look at that spot practically every day (assuming I'm awake - unlike you lads, I'm on the cushions!). Given the proximity of the adjacent Aston Church Road (that the chord presumably crossed by way of a bridge, dropping at the same time and curving to meet the Castle Brom line), I can't ever quite picture how the chord must've looked in my mind's eye. You can see the shape of the railway boundary on the lower route though, which does suggest a curve once diverged at this point. Traction Mag did an article a few years back on WCML diversions in the '60s which had numerous b&w shots of newfangled EE Type 4s in the area, one, possibly two of these photos showed part of the connecting chord and the 'box on the Aston line above which presumably controlled it. As per usual I can't recall the exact issue, but I do have it stashed away somewhere! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) Oh bring back Crewe, Doncaster & Swindon works - they built the finest loco's in the world - steam diesel and electric (Brush & EE etc, also). - Still we can but dream. (Derby is still with us - just). The announcements today are welcome - as is ANY rail investment. However what the nation REALLY needs is a long term rolling plan to electrify ALL our railways, every last mile, within the next say 25 years. This should include conversion of the SR from 3rd rail to OLE within the same time frame. Industry (OUR UK industry) could gear up to roll this out - long term investment & security of work is also needed here. Given todays announcements I hope the situation will not carry on (on the newly electrified routes) like the WCML alongside my house with Birmingham - Glasgow / Edinburgh diesel Voyagers on a 100% electrified route, etc.. Too much short term thinking regarding Railways with our politicians. At least they all are beginning to see that we can't manage without our rail network in the future (unlike many previous administrations - Thatcher etc, who would have shut the lot). That HAS to be a good thing for us all, given the price volatility and future supply questions regarding oil. A 100% electrified rail network, by 2037 run with electricity generated by Nuclear, Clean burn coal, Wind, Wave, Tidal Barrage (Severn etc) and some Gas (peak demand - instant turn on / off). A vibrant and viable (private) UK rail manufacturing & service industry. Simple ain't it. Brit15 Edited July 16, 2012 by APOLLO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Apollo - read the docs and potentially this is the start of just that! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 GloriousNSE - I sincerely hope it is. Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Some interesting stuff indeed. I note the proposal to lengthen the Uckfield line platforms to 10 cars. 10 cars of what? The present 171 fleet is currently at full capacity and there's none to spare at the moment, so juice rails at dawn? To move the Marsh line units would mean electrification of the Marsh line... As for National Grid ISTR there were recent proposals to upgrade the entire grid. It might also mean good news for us on the Romney Marsh who are campaigning for Dungeness C power station. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekl Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Listening to a chap on R4 PM a little while ago (didn't catch his name - ex-chairman of the railway forum, I thought I caught) who noted that this scheme is going to require a lot of new electric rolling stock (I think he was thinking of passenger, rather than freight). He said the DfT had not applied its mind to stock requirement, leaving that to the operators. He also pointed out that the current operators were probably not that interested as their franchises will have expired before the scheme gets that far. He also seemed to think that the timescale for procurement tight, althought that assumes the suggested time-scales do happen. Maybe the saviour of Derby works, if they can get their act together. Overall, though, great news for the industry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I note the proposal to lengthen the Uckfield line platforms to 10 cars. 10 cars of what? The present 171 fleet is currently at full capacity and there's none to spare at the moment, so juice rails at dawn? 170s freed up from elsewhere (nope, I don't know where!) maybe? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 96701 Posted July 16, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 16, 2012 It's been done in Britain with ac ohle - Anglia/Norwich scheme over a swingbridge. Also now used in the tunnels outside Haymarket. You can see the conductor beams on a photo here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_railway_station 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Just one or two observations. Documents refer to Southampton Port so presumably that means Millbrook / Maritime will get OHLE. Do diesel shunters position container trains at their destination beneath the cranes in areas of OHLE. What happens on the continent in these situations? Presumably the 3rd rail remains between Southampton and Basingstoke. Are there currently any tracks (North London line maybe) where 3rd rail and OHLE co-exist? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) Currently most seem to be presuming 3rd rail removed between Basingstoke and Eastleigh at least, it would replace the current system. Ref intermodal terminals, ones with wires can have a shunter to move the stock (some like Maritime already have a shunter) and they may also have the sidings partially wired so that an electric loco can pick up a train (or shunt one in) But the 'last mile' system with a low powered generator on the loco's could potentially allow the same flexibility as a diesel without wiring into the terminals. Edit - most has now gone AC-only, but lots of the North London Line was AC+DC for many years. Edited July 16, 2012 by Glorious NSE 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 To me, at any rate, it would seem sensible to retain the 3rd rail between Southampton and Basingstoke, as well as providing that section with OHLE. Although as many have said, it'd be fairly easy to equip all the Cl.444s and 450s with pans etc, this is adding a further complication to these units plus putting additional time in the schedule for having to stop at Basingstoke. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Yes, but then it doesn't do the job of proving (or not) the costs/benefits of the conversion process for the rest of the 3rd rail network, and any savings from not renewing the lineside 3rd rail gear are lost... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 16, 2012 Yes, but then it doesn't do the job of proving (or not) the costs/benefits of the conversion process for the rest of the 3rd rail network, and any savings from not renewing the lineside 3rd rail gear are lost... Very true but I do read something of 'an agenda' in the HLOS insistence that ohle will replace 3rd rail in this electrification. Obviously it makes sense to provide 25kv ohle and it equally there is sense in having only one system of electrification although there seems nowadays to be little technical difficulty in using both on the same piece of railway. But clearly 'someone somewhere' wants to see their pet idea of ohle replacing 3rd rail given a run and - at first sight - this is the obviously the route to choose. But I wonder if the implications, and on-costs, have yet been fully thought through or if we're looking more at the hypothesis rather than the practical design and operational railway element? Clearly implementation will be some years away - probably nearer a decade away rather than 'just around the corner' so things might well change a bit as the practical implications are assessed and costed. Incidentally of the whole plan it was said on BBC news this evening that the first money for all these schemes will be released in 2014. If design work is contingent on that funding we are unlikely to see work starting on anything announced today until probably 2016 unless it is immediately connected with the schemes previously announced. Thus, for example, we might well see the Thames Valley branches wired before the MML as they conveniently fall into the existing GWML works .. and so on. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fay Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Really glad to see the Welsh valleys getting the wires up, They always seem to be very well used but commuting on them pacers every day has to be very tedious. Im sure they will get cast aways from another region but as long as its got bogies that has to be an upgrade. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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