Alan Kettlewell Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Hi Andrew, May I make a suggestion that will get your locos running round the room at a minimal cost, and allowing for future development as and when it suits? I think your plan is to build a station on one long wall and the fiddle yard on the other long wall. If this is right then why not join the two with simple, even temporary, boards, with only a simple single plain track, running along the short walls, no scenery. Thus allowing continuous running and allowing for development as it suits. The two short wall boards could be made removable if required. In the meantime you can make very simple scenic breaks to disguise the line as it runs from the station area into plain non scenic areas to the fiddle yard. You've probably thought of it but just trying to provide constructive help. I also like continous running and this is what I would do. Anyway, I hope it works out for you. Regards Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 Alan, I was going for the "trains in scenery" approach normally seen in smaller scales, so it was actually mostly a single line all the way round, apart from a passing loop through the station itself and then an entrance into the freight facility so there was never any thought of a four track main line and massive complex junctions costing huge amounts of money - at £40+ a point it will certainly be minimum complication! Basically what I had in mind was ---------- Fiddle Yard ---------- | non scenic non scenic | | scenic scenic | | | | freight depot station | ------------------------------------ with a 4ft radius curve on either end, with the scenic bits being a much gentler curve to try and get away from the "parallel to board edge" syndrome. The track plan is still "organic" at present Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Kettlewell Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Then it looks like the only main difference between your plan and what I was suggesting is that the boards along the two short walls are scenicised under your plan. So it looks like you have a good plan to me. I had no intention of implying you might be looking to have four track main lines and massive junctions - sorry, just trying to help. Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 No problem Alan, it's always good to bounce ideas - in the past I've tended to have the "front" boards scenic only and the rest plain, but as in 7mm an 8ft radius curve is below the theoretical minimum (although it works fine unless you're running big steam locos in practice) it seemed a shame not to extend the scenic out further round the curves even if it is just fairly simple. After all, when I've got a theoretical 40+ feet of track to make a circuit, and 12ft along the back is tied up with the traverser and first part of the curves, it seems a shame out of the 28ft that's technically left to only scenic about 10ft or so of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted March 18, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 18, 2013 The other idea might be to put a couple of hidden storage sidings behind the freight/station area and have plain track on narrow boards round the rest. This could impact minimally on the room and be easy to pack away if the room was needed for other purposes. The main boards might need to be a bit wider but the narrow sections elesewhere might make that acceptable. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
switcher 1 Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Peco points - check out e-hattons - £34 + track 12yds - £60 = satisfied customer here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted March 19, 2013 Author Share Posted March 19, 2013 Fatmac, I haven't yet started pricing up track... as I will need to use flat bottom rail I am going to be doing research to find the best prices before buying anything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted May 22, 2013 Author Share Posted May 22, 2013 *dusts off thread* Well, two months has passed. The layout is no more, we have moved, I have a room full of boxes of model railway stuff in 3 scales that desperately needs thinning, and I've come to the conclusion that taking over the entire room for a layout is impractical not to mention probably beyond my budget, so I'm back to my "12ft x 2ft 6" idea, on three 4ft x 2ft boards with proper framing, and a simple extension of 6 inches on the front that won't be carrying any real weight so minimal framing. This is what I've come up with now, quite similar to my previous idea and I only need to buy one point. Along the front of the layout will be a road, slightly below the track level, similar to that seen in many places such as here near Whyteleafe South (http://goo.gl/maps/8o0Ul), raising slightly on the left hand side to meet the track level where there will be a level crossing, then at the left side of board 3 will be a road overbridge giving a scenic break. Board 3 will be a 5 road sliding traverser 4ft long (the maximum length of any train I may have). The rear will consist of a freight yard, giving the impression of a freight loop continuing beyond the road bridge, and a low relief factory built along the rear of the layout. The rearmost siding will most likely be "inlaid track" in concrete. On the left hand side of the layout will be a small temporary traverser allowing me to at least use the two main lines for running round and suchlike. Now the clever bit. At some point I'll make a second 8ft x 2ft 6" layout comprising of a second 4ft traverser and a station, which will be designed to match perfectly both the left hand side of the layout and the join between boards 2 and 3, possibly requiring a little scenic tweakery somewhere. I will then be able to use either layout in its entirety at home, sharing the right hand fiddle yard, or under theoretical exhibition circumstances a complete 20ft long layout. I could also extend the layout by another 4ft at some point in the future (with or without the two layouts together) between what is now boards 2 and 3 giving the other end of the loop back to the main line. My next task is to price up the wood and get the boards built, and get hold of the additional left hand point required. I'm starting to feel excited again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGhostofNigelGresley Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 I have spent the last 3 hours wondering whether, as a newcomer to 7mm, I have approached it in the wrong way. I have brought with me from smaller scale modelling, all my expectations of having a highly complex layout with an impressive array of stock and the abrupt reality is that it isn't going to happen. At best 7mm for me will be the gradual accumulation of a train and maybe two tank engines to pull it along what from necessity will be a very short stretch of track in the 6-10 ft bracket. The journey really will be about learning new skills. A 12ft layout in 7mm, given the level of detail required, really is a massive undertaking, especially when you have to build the stock as well. Where I am at currently is wondering whether I should be running a small 'N' operation to satisfy the Fat Controller in me, whilst embracing the modelling aspects of 7mm by concentrating on building display standard models for storage in a display cabinet. OK, if at some point in the future they escape and make it onto a layout, happy days. I personally feel that I tried to do too much all at once and became deflated when the enormity of what I was trying to do dawned on me. You seem to be having your own version of a similar thing ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted May 22, 2013 Author Share Posted May 22, 2013 Yes TheGhostofNigelGresley, I've been at this stage almost for 2 1/2 years now deliberating! I guess it's all down to what you enjoy the most. For me, I've never really been a fan of kitbuilding so I've gone for using rtr stock wherever I can. I have to say that joining the Gauge O Guild was a real eye-opener for me, although most 7mm modellers seem to model the steam era, there is an absolute plethora of "stuff" out there that I never realised existed, and of course this isn't helped by many of the smaller traders not having a web presence but attending one (or more) of the Guild shows. There's now a - members only - product directory on the Guild website which is very useful. I'm using Peco track, 6 Skytrex wagons and a Heljan 33 at present, and awaiting some of Dapol's new releases (the milk tanks and 08 will be particularly useful) so it is possible to get something together without spending many hours kitbuilding everything. I already had DCC kit so just needed a sound chip in the 33 - something I'd got heavily into in 4mm. Once the boards are built in theory I could get all the track laid, wired up and something functional but non-scenic in a weekend. I think a lot of us start thinking about 7mm modelling as simply building "bigger versions" of what we did in 4mm - and clearly that isn't going to work as you need much more space and cash, if not the time. Unless you're very lucky, then something like 10-12 feet is about your limit, or you end up building in the garden which is of course another set of challenges on top of the scale change. I think what you need to do is "go back to basics" - and think back to your early modelling days of the "train set" of a loco and 3 or 4 wagons and a circle of track on the kitchen table. Not literally of course, but think small. There's lots of great little layouts here, but it all depends on what it is you want to achieve. I'm relying heavily on scenic breaks to give the impression of "much more" like the other 12ft which would be required for the rest of the run-round loopback out to the mainline and a crossover on the double track main. I don't need to model it as long as I operate what can be seen with the implication that it is there. A lot of principles such as ballasting, wiring, scenic etc remain the same regardless of scale, and whilst it is of course possible to put a lot more detail in 7mm and it's noticeable when not there, it is also easy to build something simple and get it running, and add more detail as time goes on. Have you considered joining the Guild? If you're SE London then SEGOG which is the south east London area Guild group who meet regularly at Bromley may be of interest to you to help understand the potential of 7mm. Peter Clark (kitmaker and one of the team operating Leavensden and several other massive 7mm layouts) is involved in the team. I've always tended to be a 'lone modeller' rather than confident in clubs etc so that may also be why I'm making slow progress. Whereabouts in SE London are you anyway? Are there any other clubs locally that have 7mm sections? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGhostofNigelGresley Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 I remember chuckling when you were having the conversation about the SEGOG a few months ago, I live a short walk from where they meet, HOWEVER, most of the reasons I model are to do with escapism, primarily from life and things such as, well, people. Interest clubs have never really been my thing. I'm a contrary bustard, I change with the wind as to what I want. I was initially drawn to 7mm kit building because they aren't massive projects and a van can be completed in a week of evenings. I just think that somewhere along the way, probably I have to say inspired by some of the threads on here, I got a little bit over excited and over reached myself. Still, the good thing is I didn't blow out entirely and my thread has performed it's function, it has acted as a catalyst for this conversation and some rethinking and redrawing of objectives. All of which is good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 Hi Chris I forget things after a few months I guess the main thing is that you haven't given up entirely. I know what you mean about clubs, from experience in the past they've tended to be 40% chat about anything but modelling, 50% drinking tea, 5% thinking about modelling and 5% working on club layouts - and as I expect the same with you, my time is precious and if it's "modelling time" I want to be doing something on the layout not talking about last night's football match or how your carrots are coming along. Just over 5 hours of my Monday-Fridays are spent travelling to and from work, on top of the day itself, so once you've factored in eating and clearing up I may get an hour or two before shower and bed before starting the cycle all over again. I have a track plan now and a shopping list (basically just missing one point), I am hoping to sneak a trip to the wood yard in soon to price up this project, and then construction can begin. I'll see if I can come up with any great inspiration for your little first project too - but with the release of the Dapol 08 and Terrier I think there will be a lot of people in a similar boat of "Clapham Junction in a spare bedroom" going through the same challenges, struggles and frustrations. Unfortunately, although the Guild is an excellent resource and a great place for information, I'm not quite sure it's really prepared for people like you, me and them... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdseyecircus Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 I think there will be a lot of people in a similar boat of "Clapham Junction in a spare bedroom" going through the same challenges, struggles and frustrations. And there are! I have been OO gauge for a while but not got any were. Buying RTR. changing the layout every couple of months then buying different eras etc. Then a friend asked me to dispose of some O gauge stuff on Ebay. Wow although I did not admit it I was fascinated by it. Buying stock on a whim is not an option! I bought 3 lengths of track and then the reality hits you of just how big this stuff is! Points look huge - even though I do not have any yet. Buying a Parkside 16t mineral wagon kit has got me more determined to eventually get something up and running. Max 8ft though as I cannot afford any more space. Clubs are not for me. Most of my modelling is in 30 min snatches. sometimes nothing for a week, plus family life and other interests get in the way. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted May 23, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 23, 2013 There are plenty of us in the Guild well aware of the problems which is why the two books of small layouts were produced the idea being to show small layouts that had actually been made rather than just someones suggestions. The difficulty is that you need to understand yourself. I have worked in different scales and started quite a few layouts. It is far to easy to keep adding an extra siding here or there and producing a crammed result. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 I bought 3 lengths of track and then the reality hits you of just how big this stuff is! Points look huge - even though I do not have any yet. Peco Points are, I believe, 18 inches for the left and right points, 16 inches for the Y point, not sure about the curved points. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGhostofNigelGresley Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 The difficulty is that you need to understand yourself. This is the thing, Don, I am one of those people who learn by doing. I probably frustrate others, but until I have walked it through myself, I generally won't get it. I have learned that for me, at this time, learning to become a better model engineer/painter is enough of a challenge and having a small layout does not return enough 'value' to justify the space, expense and time required. I have a long history of wanting to run before I can walk and I will revisit the layout thoughts when I have made and painted a brass constructed train that warrants it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daifly Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 Peco Points are, I believe, 18 inches for the left and right points, 16 inches for the Y point, not sure about the curved points. 20.2" according to their technical drawing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 There are plenty of us in the Guild well aware of the problems which is why the two books of small layouts were produced the idea being to show small layouts that had actually been made rather than just someones suggestions. The difficulty is that you need to understand yourself. I have worked in different scales and started quite a few layouts. It is far to easy to keep adding an extra siding here or there and producing a crammed result. Don The problem with the two "small layouts" books is that most of the plans rely on you being happy or confident in building your own pointwork which many of us, particularly newcomers, are not. An equivalent to the Cyril Freezer books, using Peco pointwork (or at least sticking to equivalent geometry), would be immensely helpful to beginners as the problem which birdseyecircus points out above, the most obvious route into 7mm is using readily available, rather than build your own, stuff anything more complicated than perhaps a plastic wagon kit. Whilst I know the loss of 'traditional modelling skills' is greatly lamented by many, it all depends what your interests are. If you want to build and operate something quickly then "off the shelf" is a good quick way into things. However if you'd still prefer to make things yourself out of biscuit tins and cardboard, then the opportunity still exists. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 Managed a quick trip to the wood yard and they priced me up "Ext/Redwood WBP core ply" at £52 for what I need cut to shape. I have no idea whether this is suitable (was too busy to ask clarification), does anyone know whether this is suitable? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 the ply will be fine wrt quality/durability, etc. I'm not sure of your board design, however, or what is meant by 'cut to shape' - you'd better make sure the shape its correct. I doubt if you'll be able to push pins into it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 Pretty standard 4ft x 2ft top with ply sides, to be honest. When you say "push pins into it", do you mean the Peco track pins? I've managed before when I've been careful with other ply boards although many do bend. A pin vice (or whatever it's called) usually works fine. Basically the "cuts" are merely two sheets of different thickness ply, cut into the component parts I need. That part isn't my concern, it was more whether the type of ply was suitable for boards or whether it was some sort of crappy stuff that is ok for boarding up windows but little else. As I said, there was a queue forming behind me and I didn't feel happy taking up more of his time, but as I've just moved I wanted to get a feel for the local timber merchant and whether they can actually cut sheets to my specifications - which they can. People tell me MDF should be avoided hence I assume ply is suitable - or do people have better suggestions? Most of the "baseboard kits" I see online are made out of ply of some kind, and I'd rather have a go at making my own when I consider the prices that are charged, although I accept that a lot of work goes into making them virtually 'idiot proof'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Hi Cromptonnut, I've made my own boards from the same ply, (4ft long by 1ft wide). The sides/ends (frames) are about 3inches deep. I routed a shallow groove in the side/end pieces, clamped and glued together with the baseboard glued into the grooves of the frames. For these narrow boards, there is no need for any cross bracing. The glue to use is http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Adhesives%20&%20Sealants/Wood%20Adhesive%20&%20PVA/5%20Minute%20Polyurethane%20Wood%20Adhesive%20Gel%20310ml/d180/sd3198/p78519 and you need sash clamps or similar, and lightly dampen the joint area first - it lets the glue penetrate and helps to set it. I left the top of the side frames half inch proud and glued softboard on top of the baseboard, (the ply protecting the edges,) that will take pins, and sound deaden the construction too. Applying the same principles I have made similar boards for a friend. Going back to the ply - the only better quality would be marine ply, and you don't need that. There are various grades of wbp, but that is mainly concerned with the appearance, knots, inserts, filler, etc., and will not effect the use as a baseboard. The polyurethane glue is very tolerant of poor joints, it exerts pressure as it cures (hence the clamps) and it can penetrate some wood grain up to two inches. I use it for simple mitre joints for canvas stretching frames, no other fixings required. You can make your boards and give them a couple of coats of emulsion paint in an evening. Ply will most likely be stiffer and lighter than same thickness mdf, (and less dangerous to work with - look it up if you don't know) - smooth pins don't hold too well in mdf. Best wishes, Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted May 24, 2013 Author Share Posted May 24, 2013 Hi Ray, It sounds like it's worked for you which is reassuring I would normally use PVA glue then screw everything together (rather than up, my usual modus operandi) so I'll look for that stuff when I go back - they're bound to have it or something similar as it seemed a fairly large and comprehensive place. I just didn't know what the coding on the wood was and "Ext" to me sounded like exterior, so I was partly expecting that rough stuff used for boarding up windows rather than "layout quality". As you say, marine ply is too good anyway. Hopefully I'll have got hold of the point I need, and the boards made, by the end of June so I can then get some track laid out at last and start playing trains running. I'm hoping to try some new things this time round. In the past I've scrabbled around underneath boards and tried to fit Peco point motors but I came across Minx Microdrives (http://minxmicrodrives.com/) at the Kettering Gauge O Guild show and was very impressed. Ok the cost is a bit more but I liked what I saw. It's a pity there isn't a video on their website. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Managed a quick trip to the wood yard and they priced me up "Ext/Redwood WBP core ply" at £52 for what I need cut to shape. I have no idea whether this is suitable (was too busy to ask clarification), does anyone know whether this is suitable? You could use this stuff for baseboards (people do) but my preference is for Scandinavian Birch ply'. More expensive? Certainly, but much nicer to work with. Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted May 30, 2013 Author Share Posted May 30, 2013 Ok so £61 lighter at the timber yard, I now have a stack of "to size" bits of wood that, hopefully in the next week or so, will turn into three boards that are relatively square and flat and will join together reasonably well. I already have the legs so all I have to do is find the bolts and the bag of baseboard joining bits forand in theory I can then get started. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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