TheGhostofNigelGresley Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 That's very exciting Crompton, but unless you post a picture of it, it isn't real and doesn't count........ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted May 30, 2013 Author Share Posted May 30, 2013 That's very exciting Crompton, but unless you post a picture of it, it isn't real and doesn't count........ Well here are the bits anyway... The "X" pairs are bolted together to keep them as a pair, they're the end boards with alignment dowels. The three boards clamped together are the centre pieces awaiting my drill battery to recharge so I can continue drilling bigger holes with my Forstner bit for wiring to go through. Hopefully, time permitting, another week or two and I'll have complete boards to show. If, of course, I can find my bag of about 40 bolts that's still missing. Otherwise the legs won't stay in place... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGhostofNigelGresley Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Excellent - and this was done by the same people you posted earlier was it ? You gave them a cutting list ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Siddall Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 If, of course, I can find my bag of about 40 bolts that's still missing. Otherwise the legs won't stay in place... They'll be in the same place as the bag of 40 holes you put aside that match them :-/ D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted May 30, 2013 Author Share Posted May 30, 2013 Indeed it was - http://www.lawsons.co.uk/ The only downside is that if you want half a sheet (as I did) of the 12mm ply, you have to buy a whole sheet so I changed it round to make the middle boards 12mm instead of 6mm leaving some 6mm board to make one of the back-boards. The interesting thing was that I worked in feet and inches but the timber yard machine works in millimetres so I had to borrow a pencil and work out my measurements in mm - so when I gave him the sizes and said 9 off 600mm x 100mm... and the guy said "100mm, that's 4 inches right?". facepalm... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGhostofNigelGresley Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 I know, it's funny how we flit between the two systems, I mean I would never phone you up and ask if you fancied 56.8261485 centilitres, but 5/16ths of an inch means nothing to me. Similarly, if you caught a big fish I would expect you to tell me how much it weighed in pounds and ounces, but I wouldn't take a delivery off you unless it was in Metric Tonnes.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted June 4, 2013 Author Share Posted June 4, 2013 That's very exciting Crompton, but unless you post a picture of it, it isn't real and doesn't count........ Board 2 (the middle one) is the first one to be completed this evening. It's now on the floor with internal glue beading drying, hopefully to remain flat. I will then figure out how to make the legs (which were made for a previous layout and really too good not to use) attach to the board. Boards 1 (fiddle yard) and 3 (station) will then "piggy back" on using just one set of legs. Patternmakers dowels and one central bolt are the current method of alignment. I do have some "over centre clamps" but hope the one bolt will be sufficient. I can make it 3 bolts if I need to but want to see how it all works with one for now. At current rate of progress, I should be able to start tracklaying in November... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted June 4, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 4, 2013 The building trade has it's own way of coping with it. If you order say 8x2 joists unless you state they must be exact size (which will mean they need cutting) they will send you a nominal 200x50 which is usally about 195x45 not exactly 8x2. Some of the younger builders who have always known metric will talk in terms of 'trim 5mm off that board' whereas an older one might say 'trim 1/4inch off'. Some things like plasterboard come in 2400x1200 whereas the sterling boards came as 2440x1220 ( a real 8x4). Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGhostofNigelGresley Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 That looks very smart Crompton. Couldn't help notice the background clutter and wonder if any layout that has to share space with 'normal life' has much of a future though ? I'm currently struggling to find anywhere that I can spray. We need sheds, there's no two ways about it. It's hard to get any momentum when one is shedless. Shedless in London - sounds like a film....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 I do have a separate room for modelling, and that's where the layout will live on a permanent basis. However, I do have permission to use the main living room on a temporary basis as and when required, hence you notice the "background clutter". The board will be removed to the modelling room later when I start constructing the next board. Part of the reasoning is rather than locking myself away in my "man cave" I can at least communicate with SWMBO whilst she enjoys her hobby, knitting. At the moment the modelling room is a bit of a mess as we still have a lot of boxes in there from the move - many of which contain my modelling bits. Once the boards are complete and assembled, I will be sorting out the boxes neatly in the space underneath the layout (whilst still maintaining room to get under there for wiring etc) and in one of the boxes is a long piece of material to use as a 'front skirt' which will then be attached to the layout to hide the clutter, so all I will then have visible will be the working surface of the layout itself and anything else that is out on my "modelling table". Part of the "conditions" of having a room for a permanent place for the layout is that the single bed that is in there can still be used as a guest bedroom, and that's a compromise I'm happy to accept for the few times a year that it may be used as such. Hopefully the next time I can post a picture it will be of all three boards assembled, front skirt in place, ready and raring to go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 The problem with the two "small layouts" books is that most of the plans rely on you being happy or confident in building your own pointwork which many of us, particularly newcomers, are not. An equivalent to the Cyril Freezer books, using Peco pointwork (or at least sticking to equivalent geometry), would be immensely helpful to beginners as the problem which birdseyecircus points out above, the most obvious route into 7mm is using readily available, rather than build your own, stuff anything more complicated than perhaps a plastic wagon kit. Whilst I know the loss of 'traditional modelling skills' is greatly lamented by many, it all depends what your interests are. If you want to build and operate something quickly then "off the shelf" is a good quick way into things. However if you'd still prefer to make things yourself out of biscuit tins and cardboard, then the opportunity still exists. Hi CN, Be aware, that 'due to the current economic climate' (we are all in it together - NOT!) Ply is varying in quality - greatly. At one time WBP was a good option for us railway modellers, even for garden railway usuage, yet now it would appear not, as many plys have had the glues downgraded - what does that mean as far as us railway modellers are concerned? Well WBP often now comes from the East (poor quality timber) and the glues are not moisture/water/weather-proof. Even for an indoor, or garage based, layout I would be wary of WBP ply. In future I would look to source a hardwood/birch ply (eg 7 ply 9mm) which is sourced from Europe (Russia, Scandinavia et al.), it is easily identifiable as it is often white in appearence - and bits wont flake or fall off of the sandwiched inner plys. BTW, dont anyone assume that because you are paying a 'fair-price' (as opposed to 'cheap') that the ply will be any good. Even 'Marine-Ply' now comes in several grades and is subject to problems (ask some of the boating guys) - yet often MP is still pricey yet cr@p ('real' Marine Ply is Lloyds accreditted - such relates to the glue type and the bug repelents within). Ultimately the main difference in plys are types of glues used, source country, type of timbers used and number of ply/layers. How do I know all of this - boring eh!? Well we have just had to re-build and re-lay 30 plus feet of so called WBP on our garden layout (the orginal 20-30 feet was sourced elsewhere and whilst the same in appearence 'dark' timber is better and has lasted) - that was from a 'known' and reputable source (my guess is that they were dupped too when they purchased from 'spot markets'/their supplier et al.). IMHHO one needs to source, European Hardwood/Brich ply (white with multi-ply layers) and then when cut to shape/size treat with a sealer including all cut edges...We have now sourced European Birchwood (white) Ply, which uses the same glues as the original non-Lloyds approved Marine Ply's, this has been treated with a sealer and then numerous coats of a 'wax' based sealer, then when drilled and bolted in place such has had a re-application of the sealer and wax-based sealer....now only time will tell! I hope that helps - keep in mind that although a layout may be an 'indoor layout' the ply will need to be cut and also is subject to damp/moisture when we add ballast/scenery et al. Therefore seal the boards and edges with a sealer, such as 'sanding sealer' (shellac) or a modern version of such before adding scenery etc... Kind regards, CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 Having bought all the wood and started assembling the boards from the pieces cut to size, I hope none of the disasters listed above happen I do plan to seal the wood anyway by painting before I start tracklaying - even if only to help out with marking out, so hopefully that'll avert some of the issues. Although the wood was stored in an outside open barn-type building, it's been indoors in warm dry conditions laid flat for at least a week so hopefully any residual moisture will have dissipated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted June 5, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 5, 2013 WPB is not really up to extended outdoor use. I had a piece of 3/4 shuttering ply about 6ft long a left it laid on top of a raised outdoor section. When it rained the ply bent up about 2ft in the middle and when it turned dry it returned flat. The WBP applies only to the glue it says nothing about the timber used. For indoor use WBP ply is fine if it is either stored flat or made up into a properly braced baseboard so it cannot twst or warp. Oddly enough thick ply can be more trouble than thin the thin stuff does not have the stength to fight the bracing. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 WPB is not really up to extended outdoor use. I had a piece of 3/4 shuttering ply about 6ft long a left it laid on top of a raised outdoor section. When it rained the ply bent up about 2ft in the middle and when it turned dry it returned flat. The WBP applies only to the glue it says nothing about the timber used. For indoor use WBP ply is fine if it is either stored flat or made up into a properly braced baseboard so it cannot twst or warp. Oddly enough thick ply can be more trouble than thin the thin stuff does not have the stength to fight the bracing. Don Hi Don, To the best of my knowledge 'shuttering ply' isnt the same as WBP (WBP = 'weather and boil proof' - ie rain and heat) and WBP was designed to use whereby Marine Ply wasnt required/over-specified (ie not immersed in water all of the time, thus only weather-proof was required instead). In addition all of our ply was specified and purchased as 'hardwood WBP' (thus under contract), yet the 'faulty' batch was not to that 'spec' (yet such is like paint/coatings guarantees, ie hard to prove after the event). The solution came as we had supplies of quality Hardwood Birch Ply (18mm) - as a family member runs a woodworking business - and we were able to 'barter' such with another user who required 18mm when we required 9mm/12mm so we did, in effect, a swap for the replacement ply (thus not worth arguing with the original supplier and we, like the local trade, are now voting with our feet and they are loosing business). Having said this it has taken my family and me 5 days to take apart and re-build the boards (and re-fit them), and under Sale of Goods et al. no one should be financially inconvenienced by a contract or it's failure to perform/be performed etc. (in precis and not verbatim). Almost any ply, if not 'treated' (or 'acreditted' Marine Ply) or braced etc. etc. and left outside will face problems. All of our ply was braced with pressure treated timber and steel (the indoor boards have more than adequate bracing too) and treated with wax based paint finishes, yet it was both the plywood and the glue that failed (ie we were sold ply as WBP, yet the timber was cr@p and the glue was not fit for purpose/water/moisture proof and thus it failed!). I can relate several stories whereby, due to the recession and various company's greed/fear (or being under pressure from customers), the qaulity of materials has fallen drastically. I had several, well known to the trade, timber merchants tell me, not to trust the phrase 'hardwood WBP' and that, in effect WBP was no longer available, they even warned me off of ('off the record') their own 'Marine Ply' (which is now in three grades). We are only playing trains, I would hate to try and build a plywood boat these days! I hope that clarifies such. CN, Seeing the ply that you had brought back some scary memories... ...Yet I am sure sanding sealer or paint will be adeqaute for your requirements as you are using such indoors. Kind regards to all. CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 Let's hope so CME, I'm working from home today so I've just finished gluing and screwing frame 2 which is now drying next to me. I'll give it a few hours then in a future productive time between "work breaks" I'll be able to put the top surface down on top. I'm still looking at ways to attach the legs. Unfortunately if I was starting from new I wouldn't be using them, but having spent the time, effort and money (not to mention almost giving myself a hernia carrying the bits home on the bus!) I refuse to not use them. I do have these Ikea trestles plus two metal ones but they aren't quite the same size plus they do take up a lot more "under board" space which needs to be used for storage. Quite surprised how quickly these things are coming together now actually given my complete woodworking incompetence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Let's hope so CME, I'm working from home today so I've just finished gluing and screwing frame 2 which is now drying next to me. I'll give it a few hours then in a future productive time between "work breaks" I'll be able to put the top surface down on top. I'm still looking at ways to attach the legs. Unfortunately if I was starting from new I wouldn't be using them, but having spent the time, effort and money (not to mention almost giving myself a hernia carrying the bits home on the bus!) I refuse to not use them. I do have these Ikea trestles plus two metal ones but they aren't quite the same size plus they do take up a lot more "under board" space which needs to be used for storage. Quite surprised how quickly these things are coming together now actually given my complete woodworking incompetence. Hi CN, Lucky you work and play! Marc Smith used some nice trestles from Aldi or similar for 'Pointon' they look great, yet I have not been able to source them at the prices he paid - they're adjustable and v'strong. ATVB CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 I just have the option to work from home occasionally so the odd 15 minutes here or there (making the time up later in the day) to do some glueing is a good way to use up the otherwise 'dead' time inbetween whilst you're waiting for it to dry by doing some work. I picked the metal trestles I have up from either Aldi or Lidl - can't remember which - and they are indeed good but I need 4 sets of legs and only have two of those. They're also incredibly heavy... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 WBP ply is not exterior grade. Water will still delaminate it if is not protected. Marine is waterproof and is suitable for external use. Birch ply is by far the best quality which is why it it is used in furnature. For indoor baseboards WBP is fine you just need to accept it will fray when cross cutting unless you use a proper two bladed panel saw. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 WBP ply is not exterior grade. Water will still delaminate it if is not protected. Marine is waterproof and is suitable for external use. Birch ply is by far the best quality which is why it it is used in furnature. For indoor baseboards WBP is fine you just need to accept it will fray when cross cutting unless you use a proper two bladed panel saw. Hi CN, Dont blame you. I didnt realise that the trestles were heavy. N15class, WBP - WAS exterior grade - it isnt now. All ply is basically the same....with the exception of the Timber type/quality and the glues used <ha ha> (ie waterproof glue or not and with 'acreditted' Marine Ply - such has anti-pest/bug formula added to the waterproof glue). Yes water will delaminate if the glues used for the laminations are not waterproof or if such seeps into cut lines - the clue is in the title though Weather and Boil Proof (LOL!) Sadly, as you say, nowadays, WBP can split or fray along the cut lines as it is pretty poor qaulity by and large. Kind regards all. CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted June 10, 2013 Author Share Posted June 10, 2013 All boards and legs are now complete and assembly of the almost finished product has begun. I ran out of time last night but two of the boards are up and I hope to be able to put the third one up this week some time. I do need to move the room around again as a slight change from my original plans means my work table needs to go elsewhere in the room and the bed needs to go back to its original position. This also means that the boxes can be moved so they are under the layout - so lots of manual work needed this week but hopefully once everything is sorted and neat I'll be able to post a picture. I've got the basics of the track plan worked out on the computer but of course it doesn't always translate properly when you actually lay it all out on the boards, so there is bound to be some tweaking and readjustment of certain parts to make the plan flow better. I think I might need to get hold of some more flat bottom flexi as well, but not a huge amount I don't think. All very exciting, at last, and very much looking forward to sharing progress with you all once again after several aborted attempts before the move. I think I've learnt a fair bit about what doesn't work so far in 7mm so hopefully this time it'll be a success. The biggest challenge for me so far is going to be the traverser table. I've never made a traverser before so I'm not entirely sure quite how I'm going to get it together. There'll be lots of thread searching on here that's for sure... and of course until I've got that positioning right I can't start on the rest of the layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGhostofNigelGresley Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Good effort Crompton. I think this is the value of starting a thread - one can publicly air one's inertia and blockages, receive the appropriate encouragement/abuse and grind out the bit you're not enjoying and then suddenly, it's all fun again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted June 10, 2013 Author Share Posted June 10, 2013 I'm just here for the ride... if anyone wants to come along they're most welcome Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Siddall Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 The biggest challenge for me so far is going to be the traverser table. I've never made a traverser before so I'm not entirely sure quite how I'm going to get it together. There'll be lots of thread searching on here that's for sure... and of course until I've got that positioning right I can't start on the rest of the layout. My traverser is by no means my first attempt (two previous attempts in 4mm scale) however the additional tolerances available in the larger scale have helped make it my most successful (IMHO) so you should have no problems. I've just added some additional photos to my thread if you want to have a look at how I did it (no rocket surgery or brain science involved although at least two thumbs and a finger were harmed in the making of this baseboard ;-) If I could offer one word of advice... good quality runners make a real difference. This time round I got mine from Station Road Baseboards. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted June 10, 2013 Author Share Posted June 10, 2013 Many thanks David, I too used Station Road Baseboards for the bits - just not sure where they are now! I'm hoping that by the end of the month I'll have a working traverser to show you all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted June 11, 2013 Author Share Posted June 11, 2013 Rightyho, it is with great pleasure that I unveil... the assembled boards. Overall length 12ft, end boards 2ft 6" wide and middle board 2ft 3" wide which will be trimmed out into a gentle arc in the fullness of time. The front 7" will be taken up with a road, a 1" verge/hedge either side, then an embankment up to the double track, with my Heljan 33 in the middle and the "Shaftesbury" signal box from NSE_DAZ which I obtained in his O gauge clearance on Ebay. The car is on where the road is. The right hand board seen here will be the non-scenic traverser, also in the fullness of time containing a monitor display with a Powerpoint about the layout for exhibition purposes. The middle board will contain the majority of the pointwork, for the freight loop (not shown) and the sidings for the industrial complex that will be in low relief along the back. As yet the backscene is not attached - but it will most likely be a photo backdrop of distant hills. I'm quite pleased with it so far although I've done more than enough so far this evening moving stuff around (there's a lot of boxes under the layout containing scenics and suchlike which will end up on the layout in due course) so more to follow in due course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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