RMweb Gold 46444 Posted December 20, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 20, 2011 Last Friday (16/12/11) I made a visit to Coombe Junction in the fading light of the afternoon and dodging the heavy showers. Now I'm a bit of a fan of the humble Class 153-there's something about the design and the thrash of the engine as they move off. Also the FGW 'Local Lines' livery is one of my favourites especially when seen on a Cornish branchline (Watch my Blog for a future entry!). These units are probably a very cost effective means of providing a train service on these branches and add to the charm of the lines. The star of the show on last Friday was 153382. Here she is coming up the branch from Looe waiting for the conductor to change the point in the ramshackle groundframe hut. Now 153382 is descending the incline to Coombe Junction on a Looe service. Having cleared the point the unit awaits for the conductor to change the point for the 153 to proceed to Looe. After a load of thrash the 153 clears the point and stops to allow the point to be returned so as it's facing up the incline and the conductor to get back on board. Coombe Junction is a marvellous place-full of character and would be a suitable prototype to model!!!!!! The Class 153's only add to the charm of the line! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold bcnPete Posted December 20, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 20, 2011 Coombe Junction is a marvellous place-full of character and would be a suitable prototype to model!!!!!! Hmmm....that's given me an idea for a layout... Nice photos Mark...The 153's do have a certain...je ne sais quoi... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 46444 Posted December 20, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 20, 2011 Hmmm....that's given me an idea for a layout... Really! Can't wait to see it! Nice photos Mark...The 153's do have a certain...je ne sais quoi... Thanks Pete. I'm pleased with these. They certainly capture the present day CJ well-although a signal box and a 121 may be better. Glad you're coming around to the 'Skateboards'! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Is this the only place where a passenger-carrying train is allowed to move without a conductor on board, without invoking the DOO(P) regulations? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted December 20, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 20, 2011 Let's face it, this is not an orthodox C21 junction - you wouldn't plan it that way, now would you? But then - weren't the Class 153s also a bit of an afterthought? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 After a load of thrash the 153 clears the point and stops to allow the point to be returned so as it's facing up the incline Can some one enlighten the ignorant - principally ME - why the point is set facing the incline? This seems to me to generate two moves that are not required. When the 153 returns the point has to be changed again to let it pass, as it was at the start of the sequence. Isn't the 153 the only train in this section, so nothing else comes down the incline? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted December 20, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 20, 2011 AFAIK the Looe train is locked onto the Coombe - Looe section and the points are reset to the "main" line up to Liskeard which releases the section and permits a second train to come down to Moorswater while the passenger is at Looe. In turn the Moorswater is then locked into the siding to permit the passenger to unlock the point, enter Coombe and reverse to go up to Liskeard. The class 153 units were indeed built as 2-car class 155 sets. Whether or not there was a "hidden agenda" to procure single cars which for some reason had to be built as 2-car units and later split and modified perhaps can be told by one of our "insiders". There might be something in that as they were built with a conversion being possible (though the small cab is disliked by drivers) unlike many of their contemporaries. Coombe is a curious operation and owes its layout to the rail history of the area when the Cornwall Railway built the steep and shareply-curved link with the older Caradon Railway in the valley below. Coombe Junction itself probably serves no commercial need and the trains which still go intio the platfrom to serve the station probably do so only to avoid a full closure process. Most of the few passengers who use the station seem to be enthusiasts. I paid a few visits in the days of the manual signalbox there which must have been one of the quietest jobs in Cornwall! Boarding at Looe and asking for a return to Coombe the conductor asked me "Are you sure?". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterbournecm Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Some nice shots. Rick is spot on about the branch working. The Liskeard to Coombe section requires a no signaller token which can be withdrawn from either the signalbox machine, Liskeard platform machine, Coombe no 1 GF or Coombe no 2 GF. This can be either a freight or passenger train. The train staff is for the Coombe - Looe section which is solely for the passenger train. (This has no GF unlocking capabilities). So when the token is replaced at Coombe no 1 (the points pictured) a fresh withdrawal may be made for a train to proceed between Coombe & Liskeard. The points have to set accordingly or the token cannot be retreived from the GF mechanism. Hope that helps! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Thanks for the explanation. It all makes perfect sense now. I had completely missed the possible concurrent freight operation and had somehow put in my mind that this would only occur with the passenger service back in its Liskeard platform. The freight being locked into Moorswater siding only passing back up the line when the passenger is safe back in Liskeard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 21, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 21, 2011 Is this the only place where a passenger-carrying train is allowed to move without a conductor on board, without invoking the DOO(P) regulations? Nah - goes on at several places and such things have been going on since long before DOO(P) was even invented. The Guard/Conductor has left the train to carry out operational duties (here to operate a ground frame, Bourne End on the Marlow branch to do the same and the same thing happens on another branch which has attracted attention here recently, and it was happening on the Bridport branch with level crossings 40 years ago and has no doubt happened at plenty of other places as well). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 21, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 21, 2011 Some nice shots. Rick is spot on about the branch working. The Liskeard to Coombe section requires a no signaller token which can be withdrawn from either the signalbox machine, Liskeard platform machine, Coombe no 1 GF or Coombe no 2 GF. This can be either a freight or passenger train. The train staff is for the Coombe - Looe section which is solely for the passenger train. (This has no GF unlocking capabilities). So when the token is replaced at Coombe no 1 (the points pictured) a fresh withdrawal may be made for a train to proceed between Coombe & Liskeard. The points have to set accordingly or the token cannot be retreived from the GF mechanism. On reflection something sounds distinctly not right in that explanation. The ground frame MUST require both the Liskeard - Coombe NSKT token and the Coombe -Looe train staff to unlock it or a train in the train staff section to Looe will not be protected. What would actually happen is this - 1. Train arrives at Coombe No 1 GF beyond the junction and the frame is unlocked using both the NSKT token and the train staff and the road is reset towards Looe. 2. Train proceeds onto the Looe line clear of the junction points. 3. The ground frame is restored to normal (resetting the points towards Liskeard) and the token is placed in the NSKT instrument, the train staff remains with the train. The frame is now locked, the NSKT section is clear and another token can be withdrawn if required, and the train enroute to/from Looe has the train staff which means the ground frame cannot be unlocked for another train to enter that section (the NSKT token and the train staff can only be withdrawn from the ground frame when it is set 'normal' i.e. for the Liskeard - Coombe route). 4. On return of the train from Looe it stops short of the junction and the Guard draws an NSKT token which both allows the ground frame to be unlocked (co-operatively using the train staff for that purpose) and gives the train authority to enter the Liskeard -Coombe NSKT section. 5. After the points have been set the train comes off the Looe line and the points are reset and the NSKT token and the train staff are withdrawn from the frame and the train proceeds to Liskeard (keeping the Looe branch train staff). If it is done any other way the safety of the single line to Looe is not protected and a dangerous situation exists which could result in a collision (Risk assessment = likelihood low, consequential risks very high). Interestingly on checking an old Sectional Appendix it confirms that both the NSKT token and the train staff are required in order to unlock the ground frame - if that safeguard has subsequently been removed something potentially extremely serious has happened. Incidentally my 1993 pic of the train staff clearly shows it to have an Annet's pattern key built-in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted December 21, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 21, 2011 Incidentally my 1993 pic of the train staff clearly shows it to have an Annet's pattern key built-in. Correct. I'm no signaller nor driver but I know that train staff well enough. And while I also know that the current arrangements are economically more viable than retention of Combe Junction SB might have been it does seem an inordinately slow and fussy process albeit on a branch line where speed of service really isn't an issue. Staff working outdoors in all weathers (as is required of the conductor on the branch train) is an operational fact of railway life. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I stood and watched this about ten years back and it is very much as Stationmaster says, except that I think the Looe train staff is left in the hut to cater for the unlikely event of the next train down the branch being a different unit. I even timed it, as part of somebody's idea for speeding up the branch, but I don't remember how long it all took. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted December 21, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 21, 2011 I can't see why the train staff would or should be left in the hut. It is a requirement that the driver must be in possession of it in order to move the train. There are rules to allow for a contingency such as train failure (the staff can be brought back by road to the assisting train for example) but the Looe branch has always been "one train working / one engine in steam" below Coombe Junction and that loco / unit must have the train staff on board. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterbournecm Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Oops - quite right the Coombe - Looe token IS required for Coombe No 1. Apologies my mistake.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold bcnPete Posted December 21, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 21, 2011 Coombe Junction itself probably serves no commercial need and the trains which still go intio the platfrom to serve the station probably do so only to avoid a full closure process. The least used station in Britain in 2009...a small part of me will die inside if they close it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 21, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 21, 2011 I can't see why the train staff would or should be left in the hut. It is a requirement that the driver must be in possession of it in order to move the train. There are rules to allow for a contingency such as train failure (the staff can be brought back by road to the assisting train for example) but the Looe branch has always been "one train working / one engine in steam" below Coombe Junction and that loco / unit must have the train staff on board. And the Sectional Appendix used to give authority for it to be carried through to Liskeard (which is where I took a pic of it as it happens - very visibly on the Driver's desk of the unit and phot'd through the window) and I can't see much reason why it should be different now, provided the traincrew leave at Liskeard when the unit departs on the mainline of an evening . BTW the line from Coombe Jcn to Looe was reduced to what we now call One Train Working in the 1960s (?1963) but prior to that it was worked by Electric Token, and prior to that Electric Train Staff, so effectively it has always been One Train Working in relatively recent memory. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfsup Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Trust me on this bit..... Drivers cling on to the staff like its theri child when going to Liskeard - or they did cos Im not on there now Except when ive been down there then (Though it was a few years ago now, first was wessex days, and the 2nd/last was early FGW days) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted January 9, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2012 They wont close it...Its too hard to go through the process..... so Im told Even the GWR when they built it only did so "cos they could" and it was where ther trains ran round.......You can leg it from Liskeard station to CJ faster than the train........I know this cos occasionally the well-versed punter had to do so after a "no hold" for the mainline connection Been there, done that, but about 40 years ago. I was filming at Coombe Junction and realised that the train I was intending to catch back up was running late it was unlikely to get to the main line in time for the train home. In the current timetable it probably wouldn't do you much good, as only two trains are booked to call at the station each way, and not in a pattern that enables anyone to travel usefully. Another one for the Ghost Train category of only providing something that nobody will use to avoid going through the closure process. http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Train-times-and-tickets/Train-times/~/media/PDF/Timetable%20Changes/GWTT37.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
21Alizard Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Mickey knows the Looe Branch well having worked as a conductor on the line for many years and on many occassions with myself, I have attached a picture of the Electric Token (Liskeard to Coombe Jc) and the Staff with Annetts Key, the staff is a heavy metal one which replaced an earlier wooden one. Basically at the begining of shift the Liskeard signaller releases the Electric token (ET) from the token machine in Liskeard Signal Box and both the ET and Staff are given to the Driver (The Staff is retained in Liskeard box for safe keeping) The Looe train retains both the ET and staff for Liskeard to Coombe Jc, once the train has permission to leave the Branch platform the Looe train makes it's way down the Horseshoe curve to Coombe Jc, once the train arrives clear of the points at Coombe Jc the Conductor unlocks the ground frame by inserting both the ET and staff, the points can then be set and the train moves forward to clear the points and the ground frame reset for movements towards Coombe, the Looe train is locked in to enable the ET to given up and inserted into the token machine in the 'token hut' this allows any movements between Liskeard and Coombe Jc. The staff is then given to the driver of the Looe train to proceed, on return the proceedure is in reverse! The ground frame at Liskeard with ET inserted, The one at Coombe Jc requires both ET and staff to be inseted. Blue lever is the facing point lock to unlock the points Black lever is the points Dart Castings http://www.dartcasti...uk/dart/L38.php do a simular ground frame in 4mm Note:- Mickey and myself were always obliging to those who wanted a pic of the ET and staff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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