Peterborough - Rugby

[Pennine MC]

I have a great uncle who was a Peterborough driver. He told me he worked a service with a class 40 over the line in 1965. I think it was something to do with the line's centenary.

 

Nidge has just sent me a scan of a 40 on a longish train; I'm not saying it's necessarily the same train but it seems they maybe werent that uncommon on the line. I believe the Lowestoft train could load heavily in the summer and have read of it being a Black 5 turn when it was too heavy for a 24; once steam had gone, other than double heading, a Western Lines 40 would seem a logical choice B)

 

Nah, Rugby dain't sign 'em !!!! ...

Course, Leamington shed could provide a traction conductor for the hydraulic ;)

 

 

Although it's an obvious modeller thing, finding excuses for unlikely traction, it's not that far-fetched. I think it's in a mag about 1963 that a Western got to Peterborough on a football special (albeit via Bletchley and the direct line from Northampton), and the good old RO records about half a dozen instances in about 1965/66 of WR locos working through to Corby because of a shortage of relieving engines. Most are 47s but there is one Hymek and one Western.

 

And of course those naughty 43s got all over when they were at Bescot, didnt they :icon_mrgreen:

 

...and a DMU of some kind,...

 

We shall have to get you trained Cheers Richard, must admit that's not a book I'd have immediately thought of but I can see I shall have to have a proper look at it :icon_thumbsup2:

[RANGERS]

Although it's an obvious modeller thing, finding excuses for unlikely traction, it's not that far-fetched. I think it's in a mag about 1963 that a Western got to Peterborough on a football special (albeit via Bletchley and the direct line from Northampton), and the good old RO records about half a dozen instances in about 1965/66 of WR locos working through to Corby because of a shortage of relieving engines. Most are 47s but there is one Hymek and one Western.

 

And of course those naughty 43s got all over when they were at Bescot, didnt they :icon_mrgreen:

 

 

 

I don't know anything of the Hymek but the Western was Western Advocate in either '70 or '71, still in maroon. It had arrived, as did many WR engines, mostly 47s, on a Radyr - Lloyds Sidings train via Oxford, Bletchley and Bedford. It returned south light engine, presumably via the same route home. I've only ever seen one photo of this, taken by a local enthusiast who died in the eighties, he just caught it departing from Lloyds passing Lloyds South box.

[Pennine MC]

 

I don't know anything of the Hymek but the Western was Western Advocate in either '70 or '71, still in maroon. It had arrived, as did many WR engines, mostly 47s, on a Radyr - Lloyds Sidings train via Oxford, Bletchley and Bedford. It returned south light engine, presumably via the same route home. I've only ever seen one photo of this, taken by a local enthusiast who died in the eighties, he just caught it departing from Lloyds passing Lloyds South box.

 

The ones I mentioned as being in the RO were definitely mid 60s, not 70s, because those were the years I was trawling recently when I came across the report. That's not to say of course that it couldnt have happened at other times; indeed, it obviously did.

[Guest Phil]

The ones I mentioned as being in the RO were definitely mid 60s, not 70s, because those were the years I was trawling recently when I came across the report. That's not to say of course that it couldnt have happened at other times; indeed, it obviously did.

 

 

Don't forget - many strange things happened on the railway during cover of darkness !!!!

 

Many moons ago (night time geddit ?) when we held charity open days at Bescot, we spent all Saturday night shifting all those hundreds of troublesome trucks out the yard onto the Up Goods line to form a "safety barrier".

 

Had anyone been within earshot of Bescot yard on that Saturday night back in 1990 they may well have thought that a class 25 had been resurrected from the grave - hearing that six pot Sulzer clattering away all night. A closer look however would have revealed that 26036 was at it all night shunting wagons back and fore. If the management had found out about it, there might have been a few tricky questions to answer, but hey....

 

Here's Andy Williams' shot of the BRCW taking rest after her night time exertions ;

 

http://www.bescot.plus.com/trains/26036_Bescot/

 

 

 

What I am trying to say is - unless anyone specifically recorded what went on after dark, few photographers were on hand to catch the records.

 

Pardon me for banging on about this but Bescot crews worked Warships on a Bescot-Salop-Crewe-Bescot diagram, returning from Crewe via the WCML to Stafford, thence via the Grand Junction lines to Bescot. I have written proof of this but do you think I can find photographic evidence ? I am talking about leaving Crewe at just after 1400 on a weekday afternoon. There must have been a spotter / enthusiast on Stafford platforms who thought "hmmm, whats that strange engine number D838 doing up here ?"

 

We've been down this thread content before where a Hymek allegedly made it to North Lincolnshire.

 

I've been on the footplate of 20029/20170 at Totton (Hants) when we worked a train of empty bitumen tanks from Four Ashes, picking up route conductors at Eastleigh. We backed em in at Totton, then headed back light, but got as far as Pangbourne. We got stopped by signals and had to push the Dover-Bordesley cartics into Didcot as the 58 had failed, ran round and dragged the lot back to Washwood Heath.

 

Talking of class 20s, I resourced a hire job for Regional Railways Central which involved 20075+20128 going light from Bescot to Liverpool Lime St to drag a class 312 to Longsight for tyre turning. The movement had to run round at Crewe due to drivers route knowledge and again, was under cover of darkness so I've never seen any photographs of the unusual move.

 

What I am getting at is - hydraulics at Corby - very very probable, particularly if there was traffic between Corby and the WR, which there was.

['CHARD]

Now I've seen Andy Williams' shot of a Waverley Route 60A machine at BS I'm going to become a fan of Easy Listening

 

Phil, that's awesome anecdotage.

[Pennine MC]

Pardon me for banging on about this but Bescot crews worked Warships

 

Duly pardoned mate. When you've found a pic of that, look for one on that Bescot - Peterborough crew training turn

 

Thanks again to all who've contributed - it's rambled along better than I expected B)

[Baby Deltic]

What I am getting at is - hydraulics at Corby - very very probable, particularly if there was traffic between Corby and the WR, which there was.

 

I suppose there is the possibility that a class 45 (or 46) worked the traffic onto the WR via Willesden - Acton. Classes 44/45/46 seem to feature a lot in photo's of the Stuart And Lloyd's sidings at Corby. Quite a few WR train crews would have been familiar with 45's and 46's. I'm not sure if 44's strayed that far south during their freight careers.

[Guest Phil]

Now I've seen Andy Williams' shot of a Waverley Route 60A machine at BS I'm going to become a fan of Easy Listening

 

Phil, that's awesome anecdotage.

 

 

 

Bloody ell 'Chard !!!!

 

It took me four attempts to work that out !!!!

 

Andy Williams - Easy listening eh ?

 

Dunno what he'd say about that. Actually, I think Andy lurks on here. Take a look at his site - some cracking stuff, particularly this one of a class 20 propelling it's train from Bilston along the ex GWR mainline to Wednesbury,

where it'll run round and work conventionally back to Bescot.

 

http://www.bescot.plus.com/trains/20097_Bilston/

 

Who says you can't put the cart before the horse ?

['CHARD]

Ah yes, the long siding on the GW Chester line, that is great - the 20 looks as organic as the vegetation too! My other favourite residual bit of ex-main line action in the neighbourhood was the Wednesfield propelling move on the old Wolvo - Ryecroft line, steel coil on bolsters from memory. I sometimes think those minimalist freight survivors make great subjects for modelling. Thanks for the link mate.

[RANGERS]

I suppose there is the possibility that a class 45 (or 46) worked the traffic onto the WR via Willesden - Acton. Classes 44/45/46 seem to feature a lot in photo's of the Stuart And Lloyd's sidings at Corby. Quite a few WR train crews would have been familiar with 45's and 46's. I'm not sure if 44's strayed that far south during their freight careers.

 

The 44s were regular visitors to Lloyds sidings with trains ex Toton, mainly coking coal and corresponding returns, most of these trains were out and back turns. My Combined for 1977 shows 44 002/ 7 and 8. My last sighting was have been Penyghent which visited at least once after it was tarted up for the Toton open day. Production at Corby finished in April 1980 and coal traffic had all but ceased in late 1979, the steel strike of early 1980 put paid to it and when operations finally resumed for a month or so, coke and gas production used up the existing stocks.

 

They were rare south of Corby and rarely ventured south of Wigston on the main line but they did make it to Peterborough and March.

 

On the hydraulics at Corby, I'd be interested to know more of any other recorded visits as Western Advocate's visit was feted by local enthusiasts as the only hydraulic to have ventured there. Info' was fairly comprehensive as one of the signalman at Lloyds South was an enthusiast and recorded much of what went on up until it's closure. Sadly he's long gone and his notes have passed into oblivion along with the train registers he salvaged, how often does that happen? what seems like rubbish to the uninitiated is actually an invaluable source of historic information.

[Rugd1022]

A thread with many fascinating tentacles this

 

44s did occasionally get as far south as Wellingborough, and I've heard anecdotal evidence from old hands about the odd one working from Toton to Brent Sidings and back in a day, probably with a conductor from Leicester onwards.

 

Going off on a tangent again (good 'ere innit?), 45s and 46s would have been seen on the Cricklewood - Neasden - Acton connecting line too, most likely with Cricklewood men in charge, although I know of at least two Old Oak men who signed Peaks and the route in the early 70s, they both being ex-Canton men before moving up to London.

 

Nidge

[RANGERS]

A thread with many fascinating tentacles this

 

44s did occasionally get as far south as Wellingborough, and I've heard anecdotal evidence from old hands about the odd one working from Toton to Brent Sidings and back in a day, probably with a conductor from Leicester onwards.

 

Going off on a tangent again (good 'ere innit?), 45s and 46s would have been seen on the Cricklewood - Neasden - Acton connecting line too, most likely with Cricklewood men in charge, although I know of at least two Old Oak men who signed Peaks and the route in the early 70s, they both being ex-Canton men before moving up to London.

 

Nidge

 

Given that the Welbeck - Northfleet MGR was often 45 hauled, did they venture past Cricklewood? which would lead us to the Southern!

[mikeh]

Regarding Peaks to the Southern, there were some booked workings, as follows:

 

LMR locos working over the SR WEF 4.10.71:

Toton No.73

Class 45 MX

Brent 0050

Hither Green 0204 0255

Brent 0415

 

Toton No.331

Class 45 SX

Brent 1336 (0100 ex Thoresby)

Southfleet 1535 1635 (to Thoresby)

Brent 2141

Toton 0202

 

Toton No.204

Class 45 SX

Toton 1530

Brent Jn 2230 (1215 ex Thoresby)

Southfleet 0042 0150 (to Thoresby)

Brent Jn 0356 0358

Toton 1000

 

However all the above were rostered for LMR crews.

 

Moving forward a year:

 

Conditional Locomotive Programmes WEF 2.10.72

Toton 202 & 213

1 x Class 47 & 1 x Class 45

Brent 0044 6060 MSX (ex Welbeck)

Northfleet 0222 0340 6E43 MSX (to Warsop)

Brent 0525 0858 6O61 MSX (ex Welbeck)

Northfleet 1110 1226 6E37 MSX (to Welbeck)

Brent 1429 1820 6O62 SX (ex Welbeck)

Northfleet 2011 2128 6E41 SX (to Welbeck)

Brent 2340

 

Toton 2.. & 2..

1 x Class 47 & 1 x Class 45

Brent 2212 6O64 TO (ex Thoresby)

Northfleet 0028 0155 6M50 WO (To Thoresby)

Brent 0345

 

Toton ...

Class 45 WSX

Brent 0410 6O99 (ex Thorseby)

Southfleet 0610 0628 0M00 LD

Brent 0820

 

Toton ...

Class 45 SX

Brent 1030 6O97 (ex Thoresby)

Southfleet 1230 1315 0M58 LD

St.Mary Cray 1336 1406 7M58 ()800 Betteshangaer)

Brent 1601

 

Toton ...

Class 45 SX

Brent 1336 6O98 (ex Thoresby)

Southfleet 1530 1635 6W34

Hither Gn US 1855 1933 7M56 (1208 Shepherds Well)

Brent 2101

 

Toton ...

Class 45 SX

Brent 1155 8O15 (to Cuxton

Hither Gn DS 1329 LD

Hither Gn US 1440 7M59 (0855 Shepherds well)

Brent 1609

 

I have no traincrew info for these later ones but suspect still LMR crews

 

I can dig out some later ones if anyone is interested when i get a mo but maybe this needs a separate thread??

 

Regards

Mike

 

PS sorry about the formatting....

[Guest Phil]

Given that the Welbeck - Northfleet MGR was often 45 hauled, did they venture past Cricklewood? which would lead us to the Southern!

 

 

Very much so.

 

A colleague of mine started as a cleaner / fireman at Oxley in 1965, transferred on redundancy to Cricklewood, "getting his job" there, then to Euston as engine arranger, then TCI before moving back up to the West Mids. He always speaks highly of the big Cromptons, adding that the BRCWs (27s) were good on passenger work but rubbish for inter regional trips onto the Southern and Western.

 

Sadly he has never kept any written or photographic records of his years down there,

[Pennine MC]

 

On the hydraulics at Corby, I'd be interested to know more of any other recorded visits as Western Advocate's visit was feted by local enthusiasts as the only hydraulic to have ventured there.

 

RO Dec '65, under 'Northampton' heading:

 

Owing to shortage of diesels and electrics the WR diesels on the 0215 Cardiff - Corby 6M65 have been working through to Corby. The following were noted in October: D1590 (6th), D1646 (9th), D1609 (15th), D1659 (20th), D7043 (22nd), D1055 (23rd), D1748 (28th), D1963 (30th)

 

It may or may not be a coincidence that D1055 (Advocate) is recorded in both '65 and in the early '70s

[LNERGE]

After much searching i found a box diagram for the start of this route at Peterborough. Unfortunately it dates from when the line was closed as a through route and was worked by staff and ticket to Wansford. I have a fair amount of paperwork for the sections to Oundle and Kingscliffe/Naylor Benzons in connection with these lines being made freight only..

 

http://richard2890.fotopic.net/p62641951.html

[Guest Phil]

Thumbing through some West Mids books in search of an answer to a question, I found a pic which might interest Pennine. John Boynton produced an excellent trilogy "A century of railways around Birmingham and the West Midlands" published by Mid England books. Volume 2 covers 1948-1972 and shows a colour Michael Mensing shot dated 31st Aug 1968 looking across the Stour Valley lines to the desolation of what used to be Monument Lane shed. Dropping down towards Monument Lane tunnel is the ECS for 1E (possibly 1E04) hauled by GFYE D5532. The stock appears to be ;

 

SK Maroon

SK B/G

SK B/G

? Maroon

? Maroon

? B/G

? B/G

? B/G

 

 

It is possible that the stock is for a Birmingham - York or Newcastle train but it might be East Anglia service, especially as D5532 was a 32A loco in 1968 !!

 

 

 

EDIT

 

After reading Mikeh's headcode listings on page 1 of this thread, 1E04 fits very well into the 1E03, 1E06 and 1E07 sequence !!

[Oldddudders]

Regarding Peaks to the Southern, there were some booked workings,

There was still at least one working into 1975, probably 1976. In May 1975 I found myself standing at Fawkham Junction, where the Southfleet (was Gravesend West Street) branch turned left off the Chatham main line - as did Eurostars for a few years this century. My role was as standby to wind the points, which had been troublesome the previous day, but it all worked fine, and the Peak sailed down the branch. I have a snap somewhere.....

 

Once a fortnight that year, on Friday afternoon late turn, I was paid petrol mileage to drive to Southfleet to do a wagon audit, checking the weights in the received wagons book against actual labels. It made a change from ticket-office audit checks. The coffee from the machine in the office there would have made any Turk proud.

[D9020 Nimbus]

I seem to remember that Chris Leigh once did an article on Oundle station in an issue of Steam World, when he was the editor of that magazine, so quite a few years ago now!

[Guest Phil]

I seem to remember that Chris Leigh once did an article on Oundle station in an issue of Steam World, when he was the editor of that magazine, so quite a few years ago now!

 

 

Wot ? Do you mean the Chris Leigh known as Dibber25 ? Cor Blimey. Pennine had better PM him then !!!

 

 

 

 

Family connection - Warmington near Oundle was where my GGmother was born !!

[Pennine MC]

 

It is possible that the stock is for a Birmingham - York or Newcastle train but it might be East Anglia service, especially as D5532 was a 32A loco in 1968 !!

 

 

I'd say it's highly likely Phil. I made reference in the Gresley buffet thread to not all Brum - Norwich trains being DMUs and now I think about it, one of those cheap videos of classic diesels has a green 31 at New St on mixed maroon and blue/grey stock

 

 

Wot ? Do you mean the Chris Leigh known as Dibber25 ? Cor Blimey. Pennine had better PM him then !!!

 

 

Oundle is on the direct P'boro - Northampton line Phil, not the one I'm interested in. That (although not without interest) was much more local in character

[RANGERS]

I'd say it's highly likely Phil. I made reference in the Gresley buffet thread to not all Brum - Norwich trains being DMUs and now I think about it, one of those cheap videos of classic diesels has a green 31 at New St on mixed maroon and blue/grey stock

 

 

 

 

Oundle is on the direct P'boro - Northampton line Phil, not the one I'm interested in. That (although not without interest) was much more local in character

 

Pre 1970, a good proportion of the through Brum - East Anglia trains would have been loco hauled. It was the transfer of the Swindon 120 CC sets to Derby in the late 60s which changed all that, providing sufficient suitable units to run the through service with DMUs. Prior to that, the service was deemed too far to run with low density seating in the various types of units which were available. The units ran with Leicester crews mostly, as far as Ely or March, the units running on circular diagrams from Derby. Norwich provided units mostly for local services as far as Leicester and down to Cambridge. Lincoln units also ventured on to these. Tyseley also supplied units, ironically the diagrams they covered were mostly with wholly unsuitable Derby suburban sets, and they did work to Norwich even after the re-introduction of loco sets in 1977!

 

As for this line, a quick trawl through various books this afternoon has thrown up passenger trains of mark 1, LMS Stanier stock and a couple of Gresleys in various consists, hauled by 24, 25 and 31s. I'll keep looking as I'm sure I've one of a 47 somewhere. DMUs so far are Early Met-Cam, Gloucester and early Derby. Steam revealed the usual suspects, 4F, 2P, 4P, 5MT, Std 5, 8F, G2A, 2MT tanks, C12, Jinty and 3P LTSRs on the Uppingham and Stamford branches.

[Pennine MC]

Pre 1970, a good proportion of the through Brum - East Anglia trains would have been loco hauled. It was the transfer of the Swindon 120 CC sets to Derby in the late 60s which changed all that, providing sufficient suitable units to run the through service with DMUs. Prior to that, the service was deemed too far to run with low density seating in the various types of units which were available.

 

Cheers for that - I used to be quite familiar with EP's 120s back in the day (unless I'm much mistaken, it was actually 1969 when they arrived there), but I'd assumed they'd simply slipped into the previous Cravens and BRCW diagrams (the EP Cravens 3-cars losing their trailers to the scrapman and moving to the NW when the 120s arrived, whereas the 104s remained and ISTR could roll up on a 120 turn).

 

As for this line, a quick trawl through various books this afternoon has thrown up passenger trains of mark 1, LMS Stanier stock and a couple of Gresleys in various consists, hauled by 24, 25 and 31s. I'll keep looking as I'm sure I've one of a 47 somewhere.

 

I'd certainly be interested in definitive evidence of a 25 - are you sure it's not a headcoded 24, as a couple of those seemed to frequent the line on Rugby diagrams?

[Supaned]

I was speaking with an uncle at a recent family xmas do. (and did point him in the direction of the forum ;-) ).

 

He recalled travelling along this line hauled by a Britannia on a Coventry - Peterborough FA cup football special. He reckons that 3 such trains ran for the match (I'm sure the date must be in the club records somewhere) , sadly he couldn't remember the number of the Brit, just that it came on at Nuneaton and worked throughout.

 

I guess this falls into the "modellers license" category unless any further info comes to light . but thought it worth a mention.

[Pennine MC]

I dont need too much more incentive to get a Brit, Ned, there are other things I'd use it on :icon_mutter: