Prototype location ideas using 4 CEP...(now Paddock Wood)

[bcnPete]

Good afternoon and Happy New Year all...

 

I have a few layouts in progress and am not about to start a new one, however I have promised a small portable (probably boxfile) 2mmFS layout for the 2014 Burgess Hill Model Railway Club exhibition and I am just mulling over a few ideas.

 

I would like to try and use the Bachfar 4 CEP (Blue / grey) which is a wonderful model and perhaps throw in a few 33's and 73's from the BR Blue era.

 

I have started a little research on lines in the Kent area and am thinking it could either be a through station (half station modelled) or perhaps a small end of line terminus. Dover, Ramsgate etc all being too big.

 

Just wondered if anyone could throw me a few pointers and or books worth buying so I can start to assemble the information slowly.

 

As I mentioned, it won't be displayed until May 2014...but its always nice to be thinking of something in advance and gathering information / rolling stock.

 

Many thanks in advance...

 

Best, Pete

[eastwestdivide]

Have you found http://www.kentrail.co.uk/ ?

Plenty of pictures (one or two of mine), and a few diagrams too.

 

Chatham's got a tunnel each end of the station.

Sheerness is a small terminus (the 4-CEPs worked there), with freight on the branch too. Not too many buffer-stop termini in Kent.

 

Good luck. There's a fair few Men of Kent/Kentish Men on the forum who can help.

[bcnPete]

Many thanks EWD!

 

I had seen the website...but haven't clicked all the links yet...will work my way through it.

 

Had wondered about Chatham but it would have to be a much condensed version as the 4 CEP is almost the length of the scenic section! Sheerness looks interesting too...Thanks.

 

Have just ordered a few books online (Southern emus before privatisation, BR southern region electrics and Southern electric slam door stock) so when these arrive perhaps they will also throw up some futher ideas.

 

Many thanks for your help.

[Oldddudders]

The Stour Valley line (Ashford - Ramsgate) comes to mind, with short platforms. Sturry, perhaps? Grove Ferry would be romantic, but had closed a few years before blue-grey.

[eastwestdivide]

Thinking laterally, as in "to one side", how about the bay platform and a couple of sidings at Paddock Wood.

Slice the main lines off half way across the canopy, throw a couple of BRUTE trollies on, couple of vans and a 73 in the siding - job's a good'un:

 

Edit: depending on the size, you could cut down the number of sidings and bring the wall of the Transfesa building (off to the left of my photo) closer to the platform as a low relief the opposite side.

[bcnPete]

The Stour Valley line (Ashford - Ramsgate) comes to mind, with short platforms. Sturry, perhaps? Grove Ferry would be romantic, but had closed a few years before blue-grey.

 

Merci Beaucoup Ian...I will have a check of Sturry and the Stour Valley Line...

 

Thinking laterally, as in "to one side", how about the bay platform and a couple of sidings at Paddock Wood.

Slice the main lines off half way across the canopy, throw a couple of BRUTE trollies on, couple of vans and a 73 in the siding - job's a good'un:

 

Edit: depending on the size, you could cut down the number of sidings and bring the wall of the Transfesa building (off to the left of my photo) closer to the platform as a low relief the opposite side.

 

Many thanks again EWD...I like that...with only a short scenic space available it needs a bit of lateral thinking like that and I do like the idea of either looking through the station towards the freight...or the freight sidings in front and the 4 CEP trundling in and out behind.

 

Let the frothing commence!

[Oldddudders]

Padlock Wood has a lot to recommend it as an idea. In those days, was there not a large grain elevator behind the sidings at buffer stop end? If so, then a low-relief version would add grandeur, perhaps.

[bcnPete]

Padlock Wood has a lot to recommend it as an idea. In those days, was there not a large grain elevator behind the sidings at buffer stop end? If so, then a low-relief version would add grandeur, perhaps.

 

Not sure Ian...but have started to google it.

 

In terms of rolling stock (4CEP and 73) did 33's and 47's make it there?

 

I can feel a sketch coming on...

[Oldddudders]

Yes, 33s were commonplace from the day they were commissioned, frequently double-heading passenger services with 24s in 1960-61! Once electrification was completed in 1962, the 33s were used for freight and parcels duties only, and the EDLs came along a few years later. 47s were more common by the blue-grey era, too.

[eastwestdivide]

In terms of rolling stock (4CEP and 73) did 33's and 47's make it there?

Very definitely in the blue-grey era.

By about 1978 there was a 47 working along the branch with the Westbury-Allington (near Maidstone) ARC PGA stone hoppers. They also worked the mainline with ferry wagons to/from Dover.

33/0s from Hither Green's allocation and the 33/2s were pretty common at Paddock Wood too then.

There was a shunter (08 or 09) duty at Paddock Wood late 70s too - see the RCTS here

[bcnPete]

Yes, 33s were commonplace from the day they were commissioned, frequently double-heading passenger services with 24s in 1960-61! Once electrification was completed in 1962, the 33s were used for freight and parcels duties only, and the EDLs came along a few years later. 47s were more common by the blue-grey era, too.

 

Ian, Many thanks again. That's just about perfect...

 

Very definitely in the blue-grey era.

By about 1978 there was a 47 working along the branch with the Westbury-Allington (near Maidstone) ARC PGA stone hoppers. They also worked the mainline with ferry wagons to/from Dover.

33/0s from Hither Green's allocation and the 33/2s were pretty common at Paddock Wood too then.

There was a shunter (08 or 09) duty at Paddock Wood late 70s too - see the RCTS here

 

Many thanks again EWD - I think that contains all the elements for something interesting.

 

I may try and make a card mock up this week (that's how I planned and started Kyle) and map it out to see how it works.

 

Any ideas where I might be able to see the track plan (to help put it in context) as I assume it has changed since then?

 

Really excited about this project now...

[bcnPete]

Any ideas where I might be able to see the track plan (to help put it in context) as I assume it has changed since then?

 

Update...

 

Just had a look on Google Earth and I think I have figured the track layout....mine will be an 'abridged version'.

[nick_bastable]

Seaford was a relativily small terminus

 

have you cleared this with the domestic authorities

 

want to know how to lay 3rd rail

[bcnPete]

Seaford was a relativily small terminus

 

have you cleared this with the domestic authorities

 

want to know how to lay 3rd rail

 

Thanks Nick - Seaford another good contender...but I guess I can't have the freight there so it might be a bit limiting?

 

No and Yes to the next comments...

[eastwestdivide]

Just had a look on Google Earth and I think I have figured the track layout....mine will be an 'abridged version'.

The trackplan there closely resembles what I remember from around the late 70s early 80s, with the exception of the demolition of the Transfesa building (the curved grey area stretching away towards Maidstone). Traffic from the Maidstone direction towards Tonbridge had to go through the down platform and then cross to the up main line to the W of the road overbridge.

[roythebus]

New Romney or Sandgate, assuming they were never closed but electrified?

[bcnPete]

The trackplan there closely resembles what I remember from around the late 70s early 80s, with the exception of the demolition of the Transfesa building (the curved grey area stretching away towards Maidstone). Traffic from the Maidstone direction towards Tonbridge had to go through the down platform and then cross to the up main line to the W of the road overbridge.

 

Thanks - I have two layout plans to explore at present - the first as you suggested with 1/2 relief canopy and the second with the full canopy and the the first through line behind modelled which would allow some through trains to balance the bay/sidings.

 

New Romney or Sandgate, assuming they were never closed but electrified?

 

Thanks for this - I had a quick google of these but couldn't find much - at present Paddock Wood seems viable and if not perhaps Seaford...

[bcnPete]

couple of vans

 

EWD - Forgot to ask - any idea what the vans are in the left of your picture? Are they BR SR ferry wagons?

 

In terms of the ARC PGA's, I assume you mean these?

 

http://www.ehattons.com/26711/Graham_Farish_373_037C_Bulk_aggregate_hopper_PGA_wagon_ARC_yellow_/StockDetail.aspx

 

Apologies for all the questions - just trying to get an available stock list together...

 

Many thanks again.

[Oldddudders]

The trackplan there closely resembles what I remember from around the late 70s early 80s, with the exception of the demolition of the Transfesa building (the curved grey area stretching away towards Maidstone). Traffic from the Maidstone direction towards Tonbridge had to go through the down platform and then cross to the up main line to the W of the road overbridge.

Umm. Depends when the model is set. Until about 1984, up Maidstone traffic had to use a crossover to the up main, so you could parallel up and down Maidstone trains. I do remember the day when the new Divisional Manager called me in and we talked about revising the layout, which included faster access to the up platform loop from the up main - which his and my train did every morning, stopping outside before the 20 mph crossover into the loop! Having agreed a proposal with him, I went and broached the subject with the Civils, Signals etc, and that was that!

[Brake Compo]

New Romney or Sandgate, assuming they were never closed but electrified?

 

Excellent idea! Have long thought that New Romney would make an excellent protoype, even has the advantage of tree trees immediately behind the approach to the station to avoid the usual unrealistic transition to the backscene. There is a lot of info in Branchlines of the Southern Railway Volume 2, which covers it in detail as one of three case studies, as well as the relevant Middleton Press volume, both of which I bought "just in case" and together should provide almost all that is needed to build a model.

 

If one wanted be even more left field one could imagine that Dungeness never shut and the the very simple single platform was extended to four cars - how many other models could authentically feature a lighthouse (or two!). If one imagines that under electrification that the runround loop was removed, one would be left with the simplest track and model imaginable, especially as the only vegitation in the sea of pebbles consists of the odd tuft of grass. Furthermore scale drawings of the station building can be found in Branchlines of the Southern Railway

[eastwestdivide]

EWD - Forgot to ask - any idea what the vans are in the left of your picture? Are they BR SR ferry wagons?

 

In terms of the ARC PGA's, I assume you mean these?

 

http://www.ehattons....tockDetail.aspx

 

The vans in the pic are Interfrigo ferry wagons, refrigerated. More common though were the Transfesa blue ferry vans, on which there was a thread a little while back, but you also got Railfreight VDAs in there for a while, I believe those with a white-painted roof to keep the sun off for chocolate traffic (could be wrong there). And other odd ferry wagons.

If I get some time later, I'll dig around for my notes, and see what other stock I saw there.

 

And on the track layout:

Umm. Depends when the model is set. Until about 1984, up Maidstone traffic had to use a crossover to the up main, so you could parallel up and down Maidstone trains.

Fair enough - was only going on memory.

[The Lurker]

Umm. Depends when the model is set. Until about 1984, up Maidstone traffic had to use a crossover to the up main, so you could parallel up and down Maidstone trains. I do remember the day when the new Divisional Manager called me in and we talked about revising the layout, which included faster access to the up platform loop from the up main - which his and my train did every morning, stopping outside before the 20 mph crossover into the loop! Having agreed a proposal with him, I went and broached the subject with the Civils, Signals etc, and that was that!

I can confirm this - the last train I could catch from Paddock Wood to Tonbridge for school was IIRC the 8.20 which came from Maidstone - a journey I did from 78 to 85, and this came in to the up platform (possibly not as late as 85). The rolling stock on this was often older than shown in the picture and all blue (there is thread elsewhere on rmweb which discusses which types were used, 4EPB ? - but I'm not very good at EMU identification).

 

A 33 was regular on freight, and 73s fairly common - I remember "Brighton Evening Argus" passing through regularly, but a 47 was much less common. The boat trains that passed through often had a MLV attached.

[eastwestdivide]

If I get some time later, I'll dig around for my notes, and see what other stock I saw there.

 

Found a few notes, but not much to go on.

1978-81:

The ARC train was 47s, mostly WR ones.

Transfesa blues - wasn't too interested in the freight traffic at that point

 

1983:

in Paddock Wood yard/sidings: white roof VDAs, Transfesa blues (like this), Inferfrigo whites (as in picture, and here), couple of Seacows. SNCF standard brown 4-wheel ferry vans like this.

The ARC train was usually a pair of Eastleigh 33s, headcode OF. Think it went over to 56s in about 1984.

[Karhedron]

If you can find a copy of Iain Rice's book of urban layout plans, check out his suggestion for "Harestone" (originally 00 but easy to scale down). This is a trimmed down version of Caterham with a compact terminus using a central island platform. His suggestion had a coal yard still open and some loco spurs but could easily be modernised. If you want to go for the blue-grey period you could add a more modern freight facility (road stone for the M25 construction perhaps?). The plan should come to under 4' in N gauge and still allow you ample room for a 4-CEP.

[bcnPete]

Umm. Depends when the model is set. Until about 1984, up Maidstone traffic had to use a crossover to the up main, so you could parallel up and down Maidstone trains. I do remember the day when the new Divisional Manager called me in and we talked about revising the layout, which included faster access to the up platform loop from the up main - which his and my train did every morning, stopping outside before the 20 mph crossover into the loop! Having agreed a proposal with him, I went and broached the subject with the Civils, Signals etc, and that was that!

 

Thanks again Ian - This is all very useful stuff to help get a feel of the context...

 

 

Excellent idea! Have long thought that New Romney would make an excellent protoype, even has the advantage of tree trees immediately behind the approach to the station to avoid the usual unrealistic transition to the backscene. There is a lot of info in Branchlines of the Southern Railway Volume 2, which covers it in detail as one of three case studies, as well as the relevant Middleton Press volume, both of which I bought "just in case" and together should provide almost all that is needed to build a model.

 

If one wanted be even more left field one could imagine that Dungeness never shut and the the very simple single platform was extended to four cars - how many other models could authentically feature a lighthouse (or two!). If one imagines that under electrification that the runround loop was removed, one would be left with the simplest track and model imaginable, especially as the only vegitation in the sea of pebbles consists of the odd tuft of grass. Furthermore scale drawings of the station building can be found in Branchlines of the Southern Railway

 

Many thanks BC - I think I am pretty stuck on the Paddock Wood idea now...but thanks for the idea and the suggestions - Perhaps we will leave that to someone else to model as it sounds an interesting idea. One can never have enough time to make all the layouts we want!

 

The vans in the pic are Interfrigo ferry wagons, refrigerated. More common though were the Transfesa blue ferry vans, on which there was a thread a little while back, but you also got Railfreight VDAs in there for a while, I believe those with a white-painted roof to keep the sun off for chocolate traffic (could be wrong there). And other odd ferry wagons.

If I get some time later, I'll dig around for my notes, and see what other stock I saw there.

 

 

Found a few notes, but not much to go on.

1978-81:

The ARC train was 47s, mostly WR ones.

Transfesa blues - wasn't too interested in the freight traffic at that point

1983:

in Paddock Wood yard/sidings: white roof VDAs, Transfesa blues (like this), Inferfrigo whites (as in picture, and here), couple of Seacows. SNCF standard brown 4-wheel ferry vans like this.

The ARC train was usually a pair of Eastleigh 33s, headcode OF. Think it went over to 56s in about 1984.

 

Many thanks again EWD - the links to the ferry van threads are really good.

 

I have found a few shots of 47's on the ARC PGA's (Farish seem to make only the type without the profiled top but I guess that's a good start) and I think Dapol are doing a 56 sometime which might even be able by the time I exhibit this!

 

I will have to try and be a bit clearer on the timeline I am representing...for sure the Blue grey for the 4 CEP and I wonder if I can sneak in a large logo 73 in that time period.

 

I can confirm this - the last train I could catch from Paddock Wood to Tonbridge for school was IIRC the 8.20 which came from Maidstone - a journey I did from 78 to 85, and this came in to the up platform (possibly not as late as 85). The rolling stock on this was often older than shown in the picture and all blue (there is thread elsewhere on rmweb which discusses which types were used, 4EPB ? - but I'm not very good at EMU identification).

 

A 33 was regular on freight, and 73s fairly common - I remember "Brighton Evening Argus" passing through regularly, but a 47 was much less common. The boat trains that passed through often had a MLV attached.

 

Many thanks TL - All very helpful stuff to help paint the picture. I think I can cover the motive power now in terms of availability but it's just the wagons now I need to assemble. Worsley Works do 2mm etches for all the southern emu's I think including 4EPB, 2HAP and MLV.

 

If you can find a copy of Iain Rice's book of urban layout plans, check out his suggestion for "Harestone" (originally 00 but easy to scale down). This is a trimmed down version of Caterham with a compact terminus using a central island platform. His suggestion had a coal yard still open and some loco spurs but could easily be modernised. If you want to go for the blue-grey period you could add a more modern freight facility (road stone for the M25 construction perhaps?). The plan should come to under 4' in N gauge and still allow you ample room for a 4-CEP.

 

Thanks Karhedron - Another good suggestion...but I think I have a severe dose of Paddockwoodness coming on now.

 

Thanks all for your continued interest and input in this thread...I will try and work on some mock ups this evening to make it a little bit more concrete...